Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+40
RTN
Atmosphere
miketheterrible
lyle6
Isos
ALAMO
lancelot
Mir
franco
starman
KoTeMoRe
LaVictoireEstLaVie
x_54_u43
Mike E
higurashihougi
GunshipDemocracy
cracker
Alex555
Zivo
Walther von Oldenburg
medo
magnumcromagnon
max steel
sepheronx
Stealthflanker
Flyingdutchman
collegeboy16
kvs
Battalion0415
TR1
Werewolf
VladimirSahin
flamming_python
Mindstorm
Viktor
nightcrawler
IronsightSniper
runaway
GarryB
Austin
44 posters

    Comparing Tanks

    avatar
    ALAMO

    Posts : 740
    Points : 742
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Something perhaps the west needs to learn about... printing new money is not going to work forever...

    This part has a second meaning because there are people ignorant enough to publicly speak about the wealth factor they have no bloody idea about.
    As far as we are well aware of the size of Russias military budget, we can start to apply some analytical thinking.
    They spent about on pair with UK and France.
    And what they have there? What is a real bang for bucks?
    Well, it is quite impressive to anyone, who owns at least a shade of intellect only.
    First, they have a fully working nuclear triad, that is not the case for none of those.
    Let us be honest, Mirage is hardly a nuclear deterrence option, right?
    For the Brits, the situation is even worse. The only part of nuclear deterrence is the fleet, while it is hanged on Americans.
    Russians have a working, wide, and complex surveillance system for its nuclear deterrence factor, including satellites, OTH radar net.
    None of the other two has this comfort.
    Russia has brand new weaponry in all the nuclear forces. State of the art pieces some 2 generations ahead of anything that can be thrown on them. Does not apply to F/UK either.
    Russias fleet is bigger in size than both of them, combined. With running stable programs of generation replacement for all stuff they have there, with massive modernization projects in running.
    Not only that ...
    They have a new generation of weapon systems for all that fleet, that we can hardly say about any of the potential opponents other than China. Who is not an opponent, but a partner.
    The Russian land army is about double the size of both F/UK, combined.
    They have new pieces of equipment in functionally all directions, with new tanks, IFV, cargo, artillery, transportation, surveillance, individual weapons, and soldiers gear.
    None of the two others has it, they lack such a complex solution even combined.
    Russia airforces are more than double of the other two, again combined ... plus the others lack expensive strategic part of the fleet.
    Long story short, they get about 2-4 factor bang for bucks when compared to the other nuclear-capable powers.
    Making a comparison with Murica, who spent about 10x more, and lags behind in functionally all the military programs - in some of them for 2 decades - is simply clueless.
    To talk nonsenses about the economically driven inability of Russia to maintain a high quality armed forces is proof of radical lack of knowledge, and deserves a serious spanking. But I am getting too old for that fun Laughing

    kvs likes this post

    Mir
    Mir

    Posts : 866
    Points : 868
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  Mir Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:37 pm

    Well that's just it. A pipe clamp in Russian DOD terms would cost perhaps 50 US cents - that same clamp in Western DOD terms will be more like 50 USD.
    But yes it's quite amazing what Russia can accomplish with less than a 10th of US Defense budget!
    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2444
    Points : 2535
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:The British were as friendly to the Soviets as they are to Russia now, Stalin had no more reason to trust Churchill as he had to trust Hitler.

    Churchill et. al once claimed that they had no lasting friend, only interests. Which means friendship to him is expendable.

    Nowadays I see too many people who repeated again and again the "no lasting friend" mantra like some sort of supreme God-like moral code. Wonder why these people desire such a pathetic lifestyle like that.

    GarryB, andalusia, kvs and ALAMO like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:30 am

    And when countries like the US repeat such things that they have no friends they only have interests... what is wrong with these people and why do they think it is OK to use so called allies like this?

    We will help you this time because it is in our interests to do so but next time you might be in our way so don't expect any special treatment... what a bunch of censored .

    The fact that they are occasionally open and honest about it is no compensation, because it shows they are dumb as censored too.

    But they still think they are the best thing to happen to the planet and when you challenge them on that they will say China and Russia are no better and what would it be like if they were in charge... they don't get that they don't want to be in charge, and don't think you should be in charge either... you had a go and everything is much worse... we are further away from a bright future than we were in 1991.

    andalusia likes this post

    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1493
    Points : 1653
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  Sujoy Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:29 am

    RTN wrote:Russia will target NATO tank regiments with Ballistic and cruise missiles like the Iskander and similarly the U.S too will target Russian tank regiments with stand off and long range cruise missiles.
    Unlikely. If there is tank battle between Russia and NATO both sides will probably target each other with sensor fused weapons like RBK-500 and CBU - 105.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 10848
    Points : 10993
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  kvs Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:50 am

    Mir wrote:Well that's just it. A pipe clamp in Russian DOD terms would cost perhaps 50 US cents - that same clamp in Western DOD terms will be more like 50 USD.
    But yes it's quite amazing what Russia can accomplish with less than a 10th of US Defense budget!  

    Western dick stroking propaganda would have people believe that the size of the US budget is a pure metric of its potency. In the real world,
    it is hard evidence of its corruption. There is nothing that would justify any of the ludicrous markups on basic components used by the US MIC.
    This is a form of transfer pricing racket where trillions of tax payer dollars are siphoned into private sector pockets. Look at the recent report
    on the state of US hypersonic missile systems put out by the US government itself. Where did all that money go that they have to reinvent the
    wheel and play catch-up with Russia. Criminal imbeciles like Bolton claim that Russia stole US tech. That is pathetic coping with the pathetic
    state of US technology which probably was never there and existed as fake reports put out by fly by night subcontractors operating under the
    "roof" of the established corporations.

    The F-35 program is clearly a racket as well. No variant of the F-35 will ever justify the money squandered on it. It is not a tech breakthrough
    that can produce benefits later. Instead we will have yet another racket to make a "sixth gen" stealth wunderwaffen for a few trillion more. Russia
    is avoiding this rot by having the government acting in the interest of the voters instead of the corporate mafia and cracking the whip.

    ALAMO, lyle6 and Mir like this post

    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 489
    Points : 466
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  RTN Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:52 am

    GarryB wrote: The original post seemed to be complaining that the T-72 upgrade is not producing a new competitive tank able to dominate a WWIII battlefield against a HATO force, but as pointed out it is the cheap numbers tank, if the enemy has any quality then T-90s will be used which are being upgraded, and in time T-14s will be used which will probably dominate the battlefield, while the T-72 will support them very well... and be affordable.
    In 1991 during the Battle of 73 Easting, odds were stacked against us. Yet, due to superior technology and training we defeated the Iraqis hands down.

    A major tank battle where the U.S achieved a major victory.
    Mir
    Mir

    Posts : 866
    Points : 868
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  Mir Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:44 am

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote: The original post seemed to be complaining that the T-72 upgrade is not producing a new competitive tank able to dominate a WWIII battlefield against a HATO force, but as pointed out it is the cheap numbers tank, if the enemy has any quality then T-90s will be used which are being upgraded, and in time T-14s will be used which will probably dominate the battlefield, while the T-72 will support them very well... and be affordable.
     In 1991 during the Battle of 73 Easting, odds were stacked against us. Yet, due to superior technology and training we defeated the Iraqis hands down.

    A major tank battle where the U.S achieved a major victory.

    You had complete air superiority. You had complete command and control over the battlefield. You picked them off at will. I would say the odds were in your favour. Laughing
    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 489
    Points : 466
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  RTN Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:48 am

    Mir wrote:You had complete air superiority.
    That's because Iraqi Air Force refused to fight and escaped to Iran.

    Mir wrote:You had complete command and control over the battlefield. You picked them off at will. I would say the odds were in your favour. Laughing
    It was a battle that almost exclusively featured MBTS and IFVs. Hardly any air support. And yet we won, decisively.
    Mir
    Mir

    Posts : 866
    Points : 868
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  Mir Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:14 am

    RTN wrote:
    Mir wrote:You had complete air superiority.
    That's because Iraqi Air Force refused to fight and escaped to Iran.

    Mir wrote:You had complete command and control over the battlefield. You picked them off at will. I would say the odds were in your favour. Laughing
    It was a battle that almost exclusively featured MBTS and IFVs. Hardly any air support. And yet we won, decisively.

    The war started with a massive air campaign against the Iraqis. The Iraqis Air Force fought back to some extend but they were completely outnumbered and their air defenses destroyed. Some of the aircraft left for Iran as they had no chance of surviving. Despite being outnumbered the Mig-25's did rather well. I think they shot down a couple of F-15E's if I remember correctly and managed to escape despite being attacked by quite a number of F-15C's firing a lot of AAM's to no effect. I think in the end they managed to shoot down 2 Mig-25's?

    The US used little air support by choice and not because they were forced. Apaches and A-10's were used extensively throughout the war. As I said they already had complete command and control of the battlefield when the ground offensive started.
    Mir
    Mir

    Posts : 866
    Points : 868
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  Mir Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:19 am

    As far as thermal imagers goes I think this was likely a late Soviet era development?
    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Aktsep10
    avatar
    ALAMO

    Posts : 740
    Points : 742
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  ALAMO Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:33 am

    kvs wrote:
    The F-35 program is clearly a racket as well.     

    Imagine all that taxpayers' money that can be stolen in daylight, just in front of people's eyes!
    It would be hard to find a weapon program that actually worked for them in the last 20+ years.
    There are fuckups in any single one.
    Zumwalt is a disaster and a floating proof of technical impotency.
    The entire LCS program is something one can only laugh at. They are taking out of services ships that are 7 years old Laughing It is 1/5 of the typical life of a ship. Not to mention, that for $0.7bln a piece they got a motorboat with a salutation gun Laughing And a mighty Griffin system welded on deck Laughing Laughing Oh well, sure, only first two were 0.7, others just about 0.4bln apiece Laughing Laughing
    Seen any of their ships live, lately? They look like on their way to the scrapyard.  
    Anechoic panels torn off the hull of a sub is something we could have seen 20 tears ago, in the worst days of the Russian fleet. Now, we can refresh our memory with Virginias.
    The only way for them to get a modern ship is to ask Italians to build one Laughing Laughing
    At the moment, I am grabbing all the popcorn I can handle, and wait for the beginning of the new boomer program. That will be a show, I grant you! Twisted Evil

    Mir wrote:
    The war started with a massive air campaign against the Iraqis.

    It is worth adding that even before the campaign was started, it was already lost by the Iraqis.
    Their entire C&C and AD system was revealed in full to the opponents, as it was built by German and French enterprises like Siemens and Alcatel. Coalition forces had on the table a functionally whole net of communication and command, location of secret AD command centers, even detailed construction plans of underground secret facilities. Because, again, it used to be European construction companies who build them for Iraq. The whole civil defense was projected by a German construction companies.

    kvs, jhelb, lyle6 and Mir like this post


    Sponsored content

    Comparing Tanks - Page 15 Empty Re: Comparing Tanks

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:41 pm