T-90 Main Battle Tank

GarryB wrote:The missiles are beam riders... they look back at the launch platform... point the laser at a tank and fire a missile... while the missile is in flight reload another missile and fire again. The first missile can't see the target... it just follows the beam so the minor movement when the next missile is fired will cause the beam to wobble slightly but the missile will continue down the beam to impact... when the first missile impacts the gunner can then decide whether to move the beam onto a tank next to the first tank target, or to keep it there and hit the first tank again.

The Vikhr uses the same laser beam riding guidance and its CEP at 8km is 80cm, or 0.8m.

I think Victor is talking about two missile being independently guided and not as you mention it with wooble thing , the beam needs to be lased hence it cant afford to wobble without breaking the link

I think Victor is talking about two missile being independently guided and not as you mention it with wooble thing , the beam needs to be lased hence it cant afford to wobble without breaking the link

Sorry... what?

You don't think the beam riding missile flys down a beam a cm across or something do you?

That would make it pretty impossible for the missile to "gather itself in the beam".

For the first hundred metres or so of missile flight it might be several metres away from the centre of the beam.

Needless to say a beam of laser light starting at 2cm across that diverges at an average of 1mm per metre... which is quite normal, would result in a beam 20mm + (1 x 7,000), which would basically make the beam 7m and 2cm wide at 7km range.
The beam for the Kornet-EM HE missile would be over 10m at 10km... and that is a good thing.

If the beam was 1cm across all the way to the target the missile would be very unlikely to even find the beam to ride.

The reality is totally different and the beam will be enormous.

In fact it is probably better to think of it as four beams or one beam divided into four different "colours". This beam is not visible... it is either in IR or a UV frequency.
Lets say the top left quarter is red, the top right is blue, bottom left is green, and bottom right is yellow. When the missile looks back it will see the colour from the part of the beam it is in, so if it looks back and sees yellow it doens't need a datalink or anything... it knows it is low and to the right of the target, so it climbs and turns left a little and it keeps doing that till the colour changes... it might turn blue which tells it it is still to the right of the target and now it is high so it keeps turning left and stops climbing and starts to descend... eventually it will see all four colours and know it is on target and will fly straight and level if the target is stationary.
For a moving target however it will try to keep as closely centred on the target as possible till impact.

To independently guide two missiles you would need two independent lasers to guide them.

Now I have described the beams as colours and obviously they are not colours we can see, they are invisible radiation in non visible light spectrums.

The tanks don't have two laser beam channels as far as I know and it is only because of the long range that would allow multiple shots as it would take at least 6-8 seconds to load another missile to fire, but it takes a missile 14-17seconds to reach max range targets so there would be time to launch another missile but that missile would ride the beam for the other missile till the first missile hits the target. Once the first missile has hit the target then the gunner needs to decide whether to hit that same target again or to move the target crosshair and select another target that the beam can be moved to and the second missile will turn and follow and hit the new target.

Several beams can be used at one time using different frequencies... remember the sensor in the missile will be far more sensitive than a human eye and it will detect the precise frequency of laser light that hits it.

Otherwise the twin launcher on the Tigr with two guidance systems would be pretty pointless.

Also arming several tanks in a unit with missiles would be pretty pointless too as it would mean only one tank could fire at once.

There would be the same issue with the AT-6 Shturm and AT-9 ATAKA radio command missiles which uses coded command links to allow multiple aircraft to fire the same type of missile at different targets.

To make the most of the manouver capability of some of these missiles the newer models might have much more complex beams... perhaps still in quarters, but with a narrow area of "close" and an outer area of "far" where the inner part of the beam is split into four specific frequencies as above, but around the outside there is another frequency overlayed so if the missile sees red and an orange, then it knows it is more than a few metres off target so it will know it is not just high and to the left of the target, it will know it is more than a few metres off the line of sight to the target so the missile itself will turn much harder to the right and down than it would have if it saw the red but not the orange.

This would not be so important for stationary targets but would be very useful against aerial targets like UAVs or helicopters.

GarryB wrote:BTW ahmedfire

Austin posted this article in a different forum:

In 2010 there were 18 in the development of new shots of the tank, ground and naval artillery.
2010 marked by high productivity development.
Completed the state tests of four samples of ammunition.
A significant step in the development of tank rounds.
Shot "Lead-1" with armor-piercing discarding sabot 40% higher than similar full-time shot Mango. This considerable progress has been made possible through new manufacturing technologies of high-uranium shells, creating a new type of master device, the development of new high-powders. In general the development of armor-piercing rounds and reached the world level came out to limit the possibility of a staff weapon.

State tests developed shots as OCD "Bayonet" and the ROC "Lead-1" are completed, but the mass production of the Ministry of Defence for the next few years is planned. This is a general trend. Unfortunately, the decision genzakazchika OCD on a tank of high-caliber shots were closed.
Meanwhile, in the tests was obtained by a breakthrough level of performance.
Closed ROC "Saiga" significantly delayed the development of high-topics, although we have the unique results of working out a combination of radar and optical focal goals.

Against the background of the virtual absence of the troops fired with a minimum shelf life, the level of purchases of almost zero, which puts a particularly difficult situation our production plant, our holdings and not only.
Order new models at best delayed until 2015 or even 2017.
So spelled in the LG-2020. The biggest concern of ours in these conditions - to preserve the productive capacity of enterprises of the holding.
"Strengthening the firepower provided by the introduction of new ammunition, the so-called" long »(L = 740 mm) of BPS. 3VBM17 instead shot with BPS 3BM42" Mango "introduces high-power shots with BPS 3VBM22 3BM59" Lead-1 "and with 3VBM23 BPS 3BM60 "Lead-2." The use of these weapons gives rise armor penetration while increasing the distance of the actual shooting. " (CFV number 10 of 2009) Add: in GABTUshnyh Act of 2004 for these shots was registered 4ZH63 charge, but in the "open" then the T-90A - already 4ZH96.

So in 2010 (not 1991) the Russian MIC had 18 different types of new artillery ammo in development 4 of which completed testing, one was called Lead-1 which has performance 40% better than Mango. It also mentions a Lead-2 but doesn't give details but based on the info you provided above Mango has a penetration of 520mm so 40% more can be simply determined... 520 x 1.4 = 728mm. That is quite competitive, and the fact that it is a uranium based round the post penetration effects should be very lethal as Uranium tends to burn at high temperatures.

I hope to find more details about new penetrators,but using DU alloy will make agood lethal action..

My point was about the autoloader ,you can find it in the link that AUSTIN shares

Another factor constraining the development of high-power ammunition for the T-90 are limiting autoloader (AZ) along the length of projectile chargeable

http://translate.google.com.eg/translate?hl=ar&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbtvt.narod.ru%2F4%2Ft-90vsabrams.htm

GarryB wrote:

Is that true ?

Could be.

Remember that penetration is not only LD ratio, otherwise when you get to a length limit imposed either by internal space in turret or autoloader then narrow penetrators would be logically better.

The simple fact is that total penetrator mass and the material it is made from is also important so thicker increases mass and harder materials are less likely to shatter on impact.
Otherwise long thin rods of aluminium would be used... their light weight would allow higher velocities...

But low penetration

Ahmed you can find updated information on russian APFSDS in this link , you will have to use translator

http://btvt.narod.ru/4/bps.htm

T-90MS Official Press Release

Is there any information on the armoured strength of T-90 composite armour with K5 ERA ?

The effect of K-5 ERA tiles on kinetic energy penetrators, mostly depending on the mechanical characteristics of the material and, even more, the diameter of the penetrator employed (with obviously a better defeating mechanism against a penetrator with smaller diameter)- and on chemically formed streams, depending on even more numerous variables among which geometry of stream's incidence ,initialization's stand-off distance ,charge's arrangement and capitalizeable interval between detonations in weapons with tandem warheads etc..etc.. is often exploitable in open sources....for obvious motivations....by the same manufacturer as a factor of increase of the "basis" level or protection for a particular area against a type of menace.

For the common K-5....or ,for better say,the version approved by Russian authorities for export on the international market.... , NII Stali assure an increase of the level of protection of basis MBT armour of 1,2 against KE penetrators and 1,9 against chemical penetrators or,in other terms ,an increase of +20% of the effective armour protection against KE and +90% against cumulative charge.
Taking in examination only average RHA equivalent of frontal turret protection (30 degrees angle from 2000 m excluding gun mask area) of T-90A with K-5 ERA we obtain figures ranging from 750 to 840 mm against KE (630-700 mm of "basis" RHA armor values) with 800 assumed as the average value and 1370 to 1480 against shaped charge (for a basis value of 720-780 mm RHA) ,note that in this second basis value is not taken into account the effect of "bulging armor" on the oppponent's jet penetrator layers integrated in Soviet internal MBT's armor composition since end of '60 years (in the West, only for confrontation ,the first purely theoretical work on the subject is of Manfred Held in 1973 !!).

We can easily deduce that,mantaining our focus on a 30 degrees frontal projection target area, the area protected by 4S23 (Relikt) ERA tiles,even when mounted on by now outdated MBTs,result virtually impervious to any type of KE or CE penetrator now available in any arsenal worldwide ...now try simply to compute the level of protection present in the area protected by Relikt ERA (with an effective increase of armour level of 40% against KE and 110% against CE penetrators)using the now discloded frontal level of protection of the new T-90MS -the export model- : 850 against KE and 1200 against CE ; this is the main motivation for the claim that the level of protection of the new tank exceeds that of any competitor.

What has truly surprised me, as already expressed in a previous post ,is that Valeriy Grigoryan,president of NII Stali, has declared after the description of the capabilities of Relikt ERA now approved for export (likely in a slightly inferior version) continue saying:

"For us, Relikt is something in the past. Completely new systems that do not utilize explosives are arriving. We are using completely new energy substances that are much more effective and much safer than explosives"

I are under the impression that just those technological breakthroughs in the sector represent the main motivation for which Russian Army will avoid to procure in any significative quantity even T-90AM and save,instead,precious economical resources to mass produce the new generation platform integrating entirely in its same design the solutions allowed by the new scientifical achievements.

T-90MS: The official press release
http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/90_7886.html

Upgraded T-90C

Upgraded T-90C - the next step in the development of the domestic tank. Modernization has touched the whole complex of characteristics of the T-90S tanks and allowed to significantly increase its combat and operational capabilities.

Mass has been improved of the tank, compared to the base model, increased by 1.5 tons and is 48 tons, considerably less than M1A2SEP (USA) and the German Leopard 2A6, whose mass, respectively - 62.5 and 62.4 tonnes. In the new Russian machine used engine B-92S2 high power and resource. Its specific power of 24 bhp / tonne - not below the level of modern foreign tanks. For the first time using hand wheel control system and automatic transmission with the possibility of switching to manual shifting, which reduces the physical burden on the driver to reduce fuel consumption and improve acceleration capabilities of armored vehicles.

The maximum speed of the upgraded tank on the highway - at least 60 km / h, and the ground pressure - no more than 0.98 kg/cm2. For comparison, similar features M1A2SEP (USA) - 67 km / h and 1.08 kg/cm2, the German Leopard 2A6 - 72 km / h and 1.08 kg/cm2. To enhance the mobility and maneuverability of the upgraded T-90S tanks installed device driver night combined with optical, TV and TPR channels. There is a rear view camera.

Battle tower module improved tank inhabited. There are two of the three crew members - commander and gunner. Equipped with highly automated set of weapons control, and provides performance exceeding the achievements to the world's best samples of effective firing range, the preparation of the shot, range of detection and recognition purposes at night. Plasma devices and placed on a panoramic sight of the commander ensures all-round view. A circular system of video surveillance provides the same opportunity to another, and the gunner. The commander has the ability to defeat tankoopasnoy manpower calculations of the remote-controlled anti-tank systems, stabilized by machine gun from the floor and on the run, independently of the main armament and time of day. At a distance of up to 1,500 m in any position turret firing angle range of elevation from -10 to +45, on the horizon - 316.

The tank is armed with a gun 2A46M-5 high-precision shooting a caliber of 125 mm. Its total ammo - at least 40 shots, and ready for use - 22 rounds. Chrome barrel of the gun, its share increased by 1.7 times and ensures the stability and accuracy of the initial velocity projectiles.

Modernization has also affected the complex of anti-conventional weapons. Now it is a modular armor protection combined with enhanced reactive armor (ERA) frontal projection, armor protection with the DMZ, latticed screens, projections and airborne ballistic shields on the inner surfaces of office management and crew compartment. Staging system automatically screens with the ability to use manual mode. There is a system of electromagnetic protection.

Among the special equipment control system appeared intrabuilding and mezhobektovym interaction, digital channel communications, satellite and inertial navigation system, radio - VHF with two independent radio paths (2 VHF in one case), as well as an auxiliary power unit. In the fighting compartment and the department of management creates a comfort air conditioning system.

Tank of the latest generation of a series of T-90 surpasses its predecessors with confidence on the main determining combat effectiveness indicators. It is above all radically increased opportunities fire damage, the majority of high security anti-weapons, reliable life-support system and improved mobility.

Strong manufacturing base and the availability of qualified specialists guarantee the necessary maintenance of tanks, issued by JSC "Scientific and Production Corporation" Uralvagonzavod "both in Russia and abroad.

Mindstorm wrote:
"For us, Relikt is something in the past. Completely new systems that do not utilize explosives are arriving. We are using completely new energy substances that are much more effective and much safer than explosives"

I are under the impression that just those technological breakthroughs in the sector represent the main motivation for which Russian Army will avoid to procure in any significative quantity even T-90AM and save,instead,precious economical resources to mass produce the new generation platform integrating entirely in its same design the solutions allowed by the new scientifical achievements.

I think the breakthrough is in the field of NERA since they are reffered to as non-explosive armour , although at mp.net i hear often that T-90 uses dynamic armour (Composite + NERA )

If they achive a breakthrough in armour then they can always apply it to T-90AM , they need not buy T-90AM in huge number but even a purchase of 100 -200 tanks would suffice to support the domestic capability and aid in export

Gur Khan has confirmed that there is no sliding door between rear turret and bustle for loading ammo , this is what he has said on his blog on a response to my question

No sliding door between a tower and a box with shells is present. All loading is made in manual on parking out of fight.

He also confirms the possibility of using new (L=740 ) round for the new T-90MS but right now the round is not approved for export to quote

Yes, in Т-90МС new shells L=740mm can be applied, however they in itself at us are not resolved yet to export, but I will repeat, possibility of their application is available.

So basically the crew have to climb out of the tank and manually transfer ammo from the turret bustle into the tank underfloor autoloader...

They might as well have added an armoured box to the external rear of the hull and put ammo in that and if penetrated on the battlefield at least it would offer some added protection to the rear and engine compartment and could be designed to be jettisoned like the external fuel drums.

This means the underfloor autoloader has been modified to allow longer rounds, which suggests the same change could be made to older T-72s... I have the sinking feeling that based on their low priority for armour in general that the result will be lots of T-72s upgraded, and Armata produced and not so many T-90AMs built.

Hopefully when Armata is available its cost will be scary and will result in the Army going for a mixed fleet of Armatas and T-72/T-90AMs.

The Armata brigades (ie heavy) can be equipped with all Armata chassis for all the vehicles for parts and spares and logistics commonality, while the T-72 chassis could be used for most of the vehicles while the T-90AM could be the tank vehicle in the T-72/90 heavy brigades. By that stage hopefully a mini autoloader with an automated armoured hatch could be fitted to the T-90AMs turret bustle to allow for 40 ready to use rounds in two auto loaders, with the turret bustle autoloader allowing extra long penetrators to be used.

If you look at the weblink on APFSDS the new 740 mm round lead-1 is actually a DU round and not a tungsten one , so DU will give them additional penetrating capability.

There are depleted uranium shells even from Soviet times (I forget the designation) but they weren't considered safe for mass use.

The T-90MS has a modified auto-loader to handle longer penetrator rods. If required, it could be retrofited to older tanks

Steel Research Institute contributed to the premiere of the T-90S

JSC "Scientific Research Institute of Steel" (under control of the company "Concern" Tractor plants ") contributed to the premiere of the new T-90S tanks and introduced a whole range of its future development on the recently held in Nizhny Tagil, the international exhibition« RUSSIAN EXPO ARMS »(REA-2011).

Head developer of protection for armored vehicles and armored cars on their own experience has shown examples of promising technology of domestic producers. Among them - a family of armored vehicles for brand "Ural" (prototype armored vehicles known as "Typhoon") with a high level of bulletproof and mine protection, first shown at the exhibition a wide range of professionals and is a logical continuation of work on the creation of a universal army armored vehicles, heavy-duty . Cars already in the base case have given to the world experience the level of mine and bulletproof protection, conforming to STANAG 4569, which today operate on almost all the major developers of light armored military vehicles.

At the premiere of the upgraded model of "flying" T-90S for the first time demonstrated a universal set of armor, "Relic," which protects the armored vehicles of all current and future anti-tank weapons.

"T-90S has perhaps the best system in the world of dynamic protection, developed by the Moscow Institute of Steel. He has a very elaborate circular protection not only against HEAT rounds, but against the armor-piercing projectiles. Russian engineers managed to create a dynamic security protection and break the cores piercing shells, on which was believed to protect one can only increase the thickness of armor. As it may seem strange, but so far the T-90 modernization provided in front of the projection does not hit either one of the world's anti-tank weapons. " - Commented on the development of its General Director Dmitry KUPRYUNIN.

Self-propelled howitzer "MSTA-S" is not the first shows with a set of camouflage "Shroud", protecting it from detection by reconnaissance and weapon guidance. At this exhibition Institute of Steel showed a new version of "Cape" with additional external retina, significantly improves its masking characteristics in the infrared range.

Special attention is paid SRI began raising the issue of ballistic fighter, providing a bulletproof vest, based on a fundamentally new armor materials - ceramics, and high modulus polyethylene. The new body armor "BB", first shown at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil, a wide range of professionals from different well-known analogues increased area and a high level of protection: the maximum level 6a is provided on an area of ​​32 kv.dm, ballistic protection - 80 kv.dm.

Also on display Institute unveiled a new streamlined helmet 6B27. When the mass of only 1.1 kg it is capable of providing ballistic protection level of 700 m / sec. Already in production, he finds a digital camouflage coloring, which greatly simplifies the installation of additional devices, such as night vision etc and remove the need for a camouflage cover.

Gur Khan seem to indicate,contrarely to what speculated by V. Fofanov, for the new longer 3BM59 and 3BM60 APFSDS (lead-1 and Lead-2) a core lenght of 740 mm .


http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_4382.html

The related quote is the following :

Т-90MS Can use an ammunition 3ВБМ22 with APFSDS 3БМ59 «Svinec-1» (Svinec- Lead ) and 3ВБМ23 with APFSDS 3БМ60 «Svinec-2» and a throwing charge 4Ж96 "Ozone-T".Length of the core approximately 740мм.

That withstanding ,anyone can easily realize what would be the penetration capability of this new rounds with the main gun of internal T-90AM ,even more if we consider true the claim by part of UBM that the ballistic capabilities and muzzle energy of the not-export 2A82 main gun are superior even to the German L-55 gun ,and would become also more understandable the refusal by part of russian DoD to offer similar new rounds ,even in a downgraded export version, for export market.

From the same link as Mindstorm gave we have more info on the ammo carying capability of T-90MS from GurKhan

22 + 8 roundabouts in the packing in the housing wall at the ITO ± 10 in the box for the tower. the carousel autoloader on it as on all the tanks T-72 / T-90 is located in the building, at the bottom - at least vulnerable spot (the screen effect of the underlying surface + Diversity constructive protection).

What does 22+8 roundabout in packing in the housing wall means ?

Can some one who reads russian , translate this properly google does not do justice , regarding what gur khan said on ammo capability

Нет, это не правда. 22 в карусели + 8 в укладке в корпусе у перегородки МТО + 10 в ящике за башней.

Babelfish gave this result:

"No, this is not truth. 22 in the roundabout + 8 in the piling in the housing in partition [MTO] + 10 in the box after the tower."

Which seems to me to be 22 rounds in the underfloor carousel, with 8 in a separate partition in the wall, and 10 in the turret bustle.

GarryB wrote:22 rounds in the underfloor carousel, with 8 in a separate partition in the wall, and 10 in the turret bustle.

That's about right

so what it would mean is T-90MS carries 30 rounds internally and 10 externally in turret bustle.

I really do not know what to make out of seperate partition wall means ?

It is not clear, but suggests there is an armoured storage area built in, presumably inside the crew compartment but behind some sort of firewall or blast door, so if the crew compartment is penetrated the ammo is protected from Spall and hot fragments.

In other words while in combat they have another 8 rounds and charges they can put into the autoloader without having to leave the tank... it might be a storage area next to the driver, or somewhere else but it is walled off from the crew compartment... it isn't just clipped to a wall like the old spare ammo was.

Yes perhaps , As long as they are located in the turret they might well load it without getting out.

I think one problem with sliding door between rear turret and bustle is that it creates weak spot , something might not want to see on the turret rated at 550 mm CE protection.


Gur Khan confirms the 2A82 gun is ready to quote him
http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_4240.html#comments

Sleep well, the gun is ready, the case for MO - will buy new tanks, troops and go to a new gun.

These are DRDO developed APFSDS

Note the Ability to defeat triple heavy standard NATO targets at 5 km witj 120 mm for Arjun round and similar capability for 125 mm mk2 round but at 3.5 Km for T's

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/f/707/scan0078.jpg/

What RHA penetration capability we are looking at for heavy triple NATO standard target ?

Isnt that impressive for Arjun gun ?

More details on T-90MS armour protection and storage

T-90MS Protection

Guys what do you think ?

Void at mp.net said this about the 8 additional ammo

These 8 additional ammo pieces are located between the auto loader carousel and the engine bay. There was a diagram somewhere where it was shown. It is a very well protected part of the tank.