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    RTN
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    Post  RTN on Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:41 pm

    Isos wrote:All the countries that produce such missiles have shown their tests. Chinese show nothing.
    Then how is China exporting its missiles if they are duds like you are saying?

    Isos wrote:Taiwan has its own designed missiles and are very well made because they put efforts during the creation as they start from 0.
    How do you know they are well made when these missiles have also never been tested?

    How many countries are using missiles made in Taiwan?
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:57 pm

    What is china exporting ? And who is buying them ? For using them and for having loans from China ?

    They are tested. Taiwan is serious. Being a domestic design means they put all their efforts to maje it how they wanted it to be.

    Chinese engineers put their effort to make a good copy.

    Not the same goals.

    Neither did Russian ones until they did (Syria)

    I'll wait for Chinese to start shooting at something before forming opinion

    You have plenty of video showing how their missiles hit intented targets. In Syria they worked very well. They flew at long ranges and hit their targets.

    Even Iran shows the efficiency of their missiles.

    Do you have any video of chinese missiles hitting a target ? Even during exercice ? They have like hundreds of different missiles (all version of russian copies) and seem to buy only kh-31 copies with okd p-15 copies.


    If that Karakurt happens to be near Russian coastline under air cover (where it was designed to operate) then yes

    If it has an external data about chinese positions it can destroy easily 5 or 6 ships with Tzirkon. Not counting reapelling air force attacks.
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:16 am

    Isos wrote:What is china exporting ? And who is buying them ? For using them and for having loans from China ?

    They are tested. Taiwan is serious. Being a domestic design means they put all their efforts to maje it how they wanted it to be.

    Chinese engineers put their effort to make a good copy.

    Not the same goals.

    Neither did Russian ones until they did (Syria)

    I'll wait for Chinese to start shooting at something before forming opinion

    You have plenty of video showing how their missiles hit intented targets. In Syria they worked very well. They flew at long ranges and hit their targets.

    Even Iran shows the efficiency of their missiles.

    Do you have any video of chinese missiles hitting a target ? Even during exercice ? They have like hundreds of different missiles (all version of russian copies) and seem to buy only kh-31 copies with okd p-15 copies.


    If that Karakurt happens to be near Russian coastline under air cover (where it was designed to operate) then yes

    If it has an external data about chinese positions it can destroy easily 5 or 6 ships with Tzirkon. Not counting reapelling air force attacks.

    China exported Type 054A frigates to Pakistan, JF-17 to Nigeria, Myanmmar. It's a trickle at the moment but the flood gates will be open soon. Once China has 6 carriers and 6 LHD China will have far more global influence and that means more export.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:33 am

    walle83 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Chinese missiles are failed copies of russian ones. They never showed their effectiveness.

    I would rather be in a Karakurt with a pantsir than on a chinese destroyer.

    Thats a real factual repond right there mate....not

    Well, judging by various sources (albeit western), China has a massive quality control issue with its missiles. And judging by their tanks which fail quite often during international exhibitions and events, I'm not surprised.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:33 am

    China exported Type 054A frigates to Pakistan, JF-17 to Nigeria, Myanmmar. It's a trickle at the moment but the flood gates will be open soon. Once China has 6 carriers and 6 LHD China will have far more global influence and that means more export.

    They bought them to have chinese loans. No one expect to win a war with that stuff.

    Influence comes from softpower, not from carriers. Chinese ships far away from chinese coast are dead meat.
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:53 pm

    Isos wrote:
    China exported Type 054A frigates to Pakistan, JF-17 to Nigeria, Myanmmar. It's a trickle at the moment but the flood gates will be open soon. Once China has 6 carriers and 6 LHD China will have far more global influence and that means more export.

    They bought them to have chinese loans. No one expect to win a war with that stuff.

    Influence comes from softpower, not from carriers. Chinese ships far away from chinese coast are dead meat.

    In about 2 years China will be having 3 carriers, Russia be having 0 or 1. No one buys from countries they perceive as weak. In fact, Russia's arms export has fallen drastic in recent years. Bar the MiG and Su sales to Egypt signed in 2017, there hasn't been any inroads. Indonesia and Bangladesh both rejected Russian planes out of fear of CAATSA from the US. China on the on the other hand, is increasing is arms sales with its rising global power.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:18 pm

    Frigates job is the same as Cruisers. A cruiser is just a bigger frigate with the frigate not supposed to have the number of missiles. That is also slowly changing too.

    A cruisers job is long range long endurance escort of larger ships like helicopter carriers, landing ships and CVs and CVNs. The armament of a cruiser includes big SAMs... area defence SAMS like S-400 and S-500 for defending the water around the ship and everything on or under that water.

    A frigate from the cold war could barely defend itself and was intended for littoral waters... ie it would operate with land based air power and coastal systems too, together with corvettes.

    Newer Frigates have much better attack armament... but 16 or 24 launch tubes is not enough to do what a cruiser can do... even upgraded cruisers will have 80 main missile tubes and hundreds of SAM launch tubes... brand new cruisers might have 160 main missile tubes and an eye watering number of other SAM missile types.

    A frigate will strike then what? It's like how US launched all those tomahawks at Syria and even with a cruiser or two launches, it didn't do squat. At that point if a ship wanted to strike it, it would have little to nothing to defend itself.

    US cruisers are irrelevant here.... Syria is very close to Russia... they wont need cruisers for such operations... trying to do in Syria to help Assad they can use SSKs and Corvettes and Backfire bombers, but in Venezuela in a war there helping Maduro frigates and corvettes wont be worth squat.

    If you are gonna have carriers, you are gonna need destroyers to escort them.

    Russia is standardising its weapons and systems and intends to make its ships modular so starting with Corvettes and then making Frigates allows them to get experience with their brand new multirole systems, while avoiding potentially expensive mistakes like Zumwalt and Ford and LCS... or whatever it is called.

    It is not a question of just production, Russia already has ships and also needs to develop infrastructure for brand new ships and some technologies might need work as well... for instance their new destroyers are going to be nuclear powered as will their cruisers and possibly new aircraft carriers.

    There is no urgent rush, they are in no hurry to confront the US or the west, but they do want a viable blue water navy to replace their cold war destroyers and cruisers, so that they can trade with countries around the world without fear of blockade or sanction from the western navies.

    China actually built up its destroyers and frigates before building up carriers. Right now China is sitting on 30 Type 054A frigates. That's significantly more than 5 Admiral Gorshkov and Admiral Grigorivich frigates. You need at least 6 frigates to escort a single carrier.

    Frigates are short range coastal ships... during the cold war the only real frigates the Soviets had were the Krivak class which were mostly used by the MVD for border patrol and anti smuggling operations.

    To escort a carrier you would want at least two Cruisers and probably 4-6 Destroyers to have a solid defence... and probably a few supply and support ships and a couple of SSNs sneaking around the place too.

    Escorting carriers is an American thing... their carriers launch attacks and the ships operating with them defend the carrier.

    Russian carriers defend the ships they operate with as mutual defence. Any likely attack on enemy surface fleets or ground targets will likely be done with ship and sub launched missiles rather than strike aircraft from the carriers.

    This is mainly the reason Russia is retiring Admiral Kuznetsov and not building any large carrier, mainly due to lack of modern destroyers and frigates to escort large carriers, namely Russia has 0 modern destroyer and the 5 aforementioned modern frigates. As for weather Admiral Kuznetsov will be sold to China and refurbished in the next few years, time will tell.

    The fact that it is in overhaul and they just bought new MiG-29KR fighters for it and they are planning upgrades to their Kirov class and Slava class cruisers suggests you might need to get better sources for your information.

    They wont be building a new CVN any time soon, but they currently have two 30,000 ton helicopter landing carriers laid down and they have the Kuznetsov in dock undergoing upgrades and improvements.

    They will likely want about 36 or so Frigates for their four main fleets... Northern, Pacific, Baltic, and Black Sea, which would mean about 8 in each... perhaps 6 in each and a couple of frigates in the Caspian Sea to launch missiles at Syria in greater numbers faster perhaps.

    They would be plenty to defend the sea around Russia together with a similar or slightly larger number of corvettes.

    Then they would probably want about 24 destroyers split amongst the four main fleets, which would be 6 ships each... and perhaps 8 - 12 cruisers split mainly between the Northern and Pacific Fleets. The two 30K ton helicopter carriers will end up being four with two at each of the Northern and Pacific Fleets, and of course if they make two CVNs then two at one and the Kuznetsov perhaps at the other or one each at the northern and pacific fleet and the K at one or the other.

    Fyi, Kuznetsov was escorted by Grigorovich, gorshkovs and Russia's submarines.

    It was in peace time, but hardly ideal I think you would agree.

    Destroyers are necessary for escorting carriers.

    The US uses AEGIS cruisers to escort their carriers... but countries will generally use what they have that is not busy doing other things.

    With an AEW helicopter the Kuznetsov is quite capable of defending itself...

    That's why China can build new carriers whereas Russia can't due to lack of modern destroyers.

    China builds ships because it wants them.

    Russia would break its budget to produce ships at the rate that China makes them, but that is fine, I am sure China knows what it is doing.

    With its new islands it needs a bigger presence at sea, which is not confrontational or aggressive to Russia so why should Russia care?

    Chinese destroyers have CJ-10 which is said to be superior to Kalibr in performance.

    Long range missiles are easy to make. Having effective C4IR to use them is another matter.

    Failed copies?? Why?? They have never been fired either.

    Think he probably meant untested in the real world copies.

    Let them fire these missiles at the Indians and Taiwanese. Then we can judge their effectiveness.

    The best weapon is the one that does not need to be used.

    China would not benefit from attacking Taiwan or India.... the US and the west on the other hand would love it... the more they damage each other and neighbours the more they will like it.

    Then how is China exporting its missiles if they are duds like you are saying?

    I remember an Asian customer explaining it to a western reporter... their products are cheaper.... if we buy 10 tanks and four don't work those 6 tanks are still much much cheaper than the two American tanks we could have bought for the same money so we end up ahead.

    In fact, Russia's arms export has fallen drastic in recent years.

    No it hasn't.

    Indonesia and Bangladesh both rejected Russian planes out of fear of CAATSA from the US.

    Could turn that around and say the US fears Russian weapons in foreign hands enough to risk relations with allies and potentially huge customers... they don't seem upset at Chinese sales of weapons that China claims are better...

    And good for China, supplying affordable weapons as an alternative to the west... I honestly wish them all the best... the countries that buy their products probably couldn't afford Russian stuff these days anyway.

    Certainly a bit of trade and growth and development of the rest of the world will help them improve their situations, and perhaps get China to custom make things tailored to their needs in the future too.

    I see it as good for everyone... except the west.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:23 pm

    Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.

    Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.

    3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.

    You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.

    Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.

    And no one is afraid of chinese people.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:26 pm

    That's the thing. India isn't even close to a major power besides it's nukes and numbers, and even they stand up to China.
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    Post  walle83 on Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:33 pm

    Isos wrote:Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.

    Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.

    3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.

    You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.

    Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.

    And no one is afraid of chinese people.

    What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.

    Total bs.

    Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:35 pm

    Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov

    The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.

    So no, ISOs is correct.
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:02 pm

    Isos wrote:Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.

    Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.

    3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.

    You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.

    Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.

    And no one is afraid of chinese people.

    Russian arms sales are declining while Chinese arms sales are increasing. There isn't any major Russian arms export contract in the foreseeable future. The most recent one is Su-35 deal with Egypt. While China is exporting JF-17 to multiple countries recently. There isn't a big difference in arms sales between China and Russia at the moment.

    Even Algeria chose Chinese warship over Russian warship. Case in point. Adhafer class.

    Type 054B is going to be selling like hot cakes considering China's advanced shipyards which can churn out a frigate within months compared to Russian shipyards which takes about a decade to build a frigate.


    Last edited by Tai Hai Chen on Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:11 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Russia sells more every year and is still the 2nd.

    Chinese sells are done with poor countries that needs loans to support their economy.

    3 carriers that will stay in your territorial water, just like 100% of your navy.

    You have no real fughter to be used from those carriers. J-15 is a total failure, a failed su-33. Then they will try to navalize the j-31 which is a failed copy of f-35 but again they won't succeed.

    Chinese carriers are practice targets for any modern submarine. If you try to use strenght like US with carrier to control small countries you will got beatten. Even african countries can beat you. China has no idea how to use military. You can barely use it against neighbours.

    And no one is afraid of chinese people.

    What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.

    Total bs.

    Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land.

    Agreed. J-15 has AESA which Su-33 lacks. J-15 has way more advanced HUD than Su-33's 1980s HUD.
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:22 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov

    The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.

    So no, ISOs is correct.

    There isn't a single Su-57 in service while there are dozens of J-20 in service. Russians never expected Chinese to operate 5th gen planes before they do. How times have changed.
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    Post  RTN on Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:29 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:Indonesia and Bangladesh both rejected Russian planes out of fear of CAATSA from the US.
    Which aircraft did they reject? Indonesia operates Su 30s. Bangladesh operates Mig 29s.
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    Post  walle83 on Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:47 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov

    The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.

    So no, ISOs is correct.

    Flies what, 6 planes? Russia might want to show of the su-57 as a finished fighter but in reality its still in development with several systems still not ready for serial production. 10 years after maiden flight.
    Yes and when then Kuznetsov is back the chinese will have 3 carriers in service, one with catapults and a fourth one in construction, whats your point?

    China is not perfect and not all thier different weapon platforms either, but just throwing shit out there just to make Russia sound superior is just redicluis.
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    Post  RTN on Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:03 pm

    Isos wrote:What is china exporting ? And who is buying them ? For using them and for having loans from China ?
    HQ-16, C-803 have been exported to Pakistan. C -802 exported to Algeria, Silkworm ballistic missiles to Saudis.

    Isos wrote:They are tested. Taiwan is serious. Being a domestic design means they put all their efforts to maje it how they wanted it to be.
    Tested against whom? Just because they design these missiles at home doesn't makes them great. Taiwan imports billions of $$ of weapons from U.S because they don't have the capability to design, manufacture top of the line military H/W.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:26 pm

    What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.

    Total bs.

    Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land

    J-15 sucks. They don't want that fighter as their main carrier based fighter. It's a total failure.

    J-31 was quickly made from f-35 stolen data. It's crap and now their working it out to make a decebt fighter but you cab't make gold out of crap. It's also based on f-35 which is also a failure.

    I'm not saying they don't leave their waters. I say the reality is that they don't leave them. Their Lybia that financed was blow up and they lost billions and billions just like in Venezuela. Where were those mighty Chinese ships ? They already have as much ships as US and even more in numbers. What are they waiting to protect their interest. Paper dragon...

    Su-57 is a total success. It will replace old fighters and be used to form a family of fighters like the su-27. China is still copying the su-27 and buying su35. Tells you a lot about their beautifull industry.

    The Kuznetsov has russian sonar, has the tor and kashtans, granits and ASW rockets to protect itself. Udaloys have state of art sonars capable of tracking US Virginia and SeaWolf subs. Gorshkov everything better and soon Tzirkon. China has pathetic copies of the export versions of those systems. Get real they suck.

    And above that most of their soldiers are farmers that have no idea how to fight a strong opponent.

    US are not random Hiugur. They will send them to stibe age.

    Russian arms sales are declining while Chinese arms sales are increasing. There isn't any major Russian arms export contract in the foreseeable future. The most recent one is Su-35 deal with Egypt. While China is exporting JF-17 to multiple countries recently. There isn't a big difference in arms sales between China and Russia at the moment.

    Even Algeria chose Chinese warship over Russian warship. Case in point. Adhafer class.

    Type 054B is going to be selling like hot cakes considering China's advanced shipyards which can churn out a frigate within months compared to Russian shipyards which takes about a decade to build a frigate.

    I already answered. Russia is 2nd and sells more every year than the year before.

    Jf-17 is a mig-21 copy made by pakistan. The export is pathetic and only poor countries are buying it

    Algeria took the cheapest ship to have access to loans from china. They are buying German ships as well.

    All the countries that bought chinese drones are trying to sell them back because they suck.

    Type 054 is outdated design. Total crap. No one will buy it and no one showed interest for that floating poo.

    HQ-16, C-803 have been exported to Pakistan. C -802 exported to Algeria, Silkworm ballistic missiles to Saudis.

    Lol. Pakistan buy from China only because they were left by US. Having India as a common enemy is also a factor.

    But even Pakistan is looking at russian weapon with interest.

    Beside Pakistan there is no real big export client. Algeria buy few thing to them because its cheap and comes with loans. Saudi needed BM that no one else would sell them and probably come with oil contracts.

    Tested against whom? Just because they design these missiles at home doesn't makes them great. Taiwan imports billions of $$ of weapons from U.S because they don't have the capability to design, manufacture top of the line military H/W.

    When you buikd a weapon at home to protect your country you make it to reach your expectations and make real tests.

    China copies everything they see in weappn expo. Like seriously everything...

    Taiwan produces its own fighters too. Its own missiles. And lot of stuff. Sure they buy from US too but they put lot of effort to have a strong military.

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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:11 am

    walle83 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov

    The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.

    So no, ISOs is correct.

    Flies what,  6 planes? Russia might want to show of the su-57 as a finished fighter but in reality its still in development with several systems still not ready for serial production. 10 years after maiden flight.
    Yes and when then Kuznetsov is back the chinese will have 3 carriers in service, one with catapults and a fourth one in construction,  whats your point?

    China is not perfect and not all thier different weapon platforms either,  but just throwing shit out there just to make Russia sound superior is just redicluis.

    I doubt Kuznetsov will be back. It's been sitting at port since 2016 and there is no money to refurbish it. Plus, the last time it was used very briefly in Syria multiple carrier jets crashed after taking off from it. So there's no point for this ship unless China buys it and refurbishes it.


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    Post  walle83 on Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:45 am

    Isos wrote:
    What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.

    Total bs.

    Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land

    J-15 sucks. They don't want that fighter as their main carrier based fighter. It's a total failure.

    J-31 was quickly made from f-35 stolen data. It's crap and now their working it out to make a decebt fighter but you cab't make gold out of crap. It's also based on f-35 which is also a failure.

    I'm not saying they don't leave their waters. I say the reality is that they don't leave them. Their Lybia that financed was blow up and they lost billions and billions just like in Venezuela. Where were those mighty Chinese ships ? They already have as much ships as US and even more in numbers. What are they waiting to protect their interest. Paper dragon...

    Su-57 is a total success. It will replace old fighters and be used to form a family of fighters like the su-27. China is still copying the su-27 and buying su35. Tells you a lot about their beautifull industry.

    The Kuznetsov has russian sonar, has the tor and kashtans, granits and ASW rockets to protect itself. Udaloys have state of art sonars capable of tracking US Virginia and SeaWolf subs. Gorshkov everything better and soon Tzirkon. China has pathetic copies of the export versions of those systems. Get real they suck.

    And above that most of their soldiers are farmers that have no idea how to fight a strong opponent.

    How does the J-15 suck? Its a 4th generation night and day fighter built for carrier operations.
    Its the first fighter in the class for the chinese and have had some initial child decises. It has had a total of 2 crashes, one was a result of bird strike.
    Of course the chinese wants to replace it with a new 5th generation aircraft,  the J-31 is one alternative there. Lets just wait and see untill we judge its capebilities.

    The Su-57, yeah lets see in a few years and judge it then also. The forgien market hasnt shown much intrest in it, specialy after India left the project. The Su-57 shouldnt be compared against the J-15 either more the j-20.

    China could have given thier carriers C-10, Y-12 missiles but choose not to. Why when they have escorts that can carry 10 times what kuznetsov ever could. Basicly they are going for the american navy concept insted of the russian there.
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    Tai Hai Chen

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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:19 am

    walle83 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    What a total crap bs. You are just throwing stuff out there. You have no idea how the J-15 is working today, you have no idea how good the J-31 is going to be, you have no idea where the chinese carrier are going to be deployed.

    Total bs.

    Everything u just said could easy be turned around against Russia if u wanted to. The Su-57 is a total failure, Kuznetsov and future carriers are practice target for modern submarines, thier carrier will never leave the near waters of Russian main land

    J-15 sucks. They don't want that fighter as their main carrier based fighter. It's a total failure.

    J-31 was quickly made from f-35 stolen data. It's crap and now their working it out to make a decebt fighter but you cab't make gold out of crap. It's also based on f-35 which is also a failure.

    I'm not saying they don't leave their waters. I say the reality is that they don't leave them. Their Lybia that financed was blow up and they lost billions and billions just like in Venezuela. Where were those mighty Chinese ships ? They already have as much ships as US and even more in numbers. What are they waiting to protect their interest. Paper dragon...

    Su-57 is a total success. It will replace old fighters and be used to form a family of fighters like the su-27. China is still copying the su-27 and buying su35. Tells you a lot about their beautifull industry.

    The Kuznetsov has russian sonar, has the tor and kashtans, granits and ASW rockets to protect itself. Udaloys have state of art sonars capable of tracking US Virginia and SeaWolf subs. Gorshkov everything better and soon Tzirkon. China has pathetic copies of the export versions of those systems. Get real they suck.

    And above that most of their soldiers are farmers that have no idea how to fight a strong opponent.

    How does the J-15 suck? Its a 4th generation night and day fighter built for carrier operations.
    Its the first fighter in the class for the chinese and have had some initial child decises. It has had a total of 2 crashes, one was a result of bird strike.
    Of course the chinese wants to replace it with a new 5th generation aircraft,  the J-31 is one alternative there. Lets just wait and see untill we judge its capebilities.

    The Su-57, yeah lets see in a few years and judge it then also. The forgien market hasnt shown much intrest in it, specialy after India left the project. The Su-57 shouldnt be compared against the J-15 either more the j-20.

    China could have given thier carriers C-10, Y-12 missiles but choose not to. Why when they have escorts that can carry 10 times what kuznetsov ever could. Basicly they are going for the american navy concept insted of the russian there.

    J-15 is 4.5 gen. Its avionics are staggeringly advanced, with AESA, wide angle HUD, quad digital FBW, all of which Su-33 lacks. J-35 won't replace J-15 but will complement it.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:39 am

    I feel dumber having read this page, but I am sure hard core pro American dickheads who like sanctions on Russia and China will think this is great... fanboyism at its best.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:33 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Difference is, Russia not only operates but continuously flies the Su-57 and is continuing the fixing of Kuznetsov

    The J-15 on the other hands ends up going dark after recent crashes.

    So no, ISOs is correct.

    Flies what,  6 planes? Russia might want to show of the su-57 as a finished fighter but in reality its still in development with several systems still not ready for serial production. 10 years after maiden flight.
    Yes and when then Kuznetsov is back the chinese will have 3 carriers in service, one with catapults and a fourth one in construction,  whats your point?

    China is not perfect and not all thier different weapon platforms either,  but just throwing shit out there just to make Russia sound superior is just redicluis.

    Su-57 is ready and already in production. Only system missing as you state (not multiple) is the new engine.

    That's a lot more than that piece of shit knockoff that crashes more than it flies J-15.

    The fact that China can only produce what they copy (T-80 was initial design for MBT-2000, Type 96 derived from T-62, J-15 a knockoff of Su-33, J-20 a rip off design of MiG-1.42, J-31 a rip-off of stolen data of F-35, etc), don't expect the copy to be better.

    Oh, and China still has to import jet engines.

    I'm done here.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:30 pm

    Su-57 is ready and already in production. Only system missing as you state (not multiple) is the new engine.

    lol1 Even the old su35 engine makes it a great fighter. China has nothing that comes close to that engine, let alone the new engine.

    And the engine they are making right now by copying the export version of the su-35's engine they bought won't help.

    Russia was pissed off when they copied su-27 back in the 00s. Since then they probably make their stuff for China full of downgraded stuff and complicated the reverse engineering.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Su-57 is ready and already in production. Only system missing as you state (not multiple) is the new engine.

    lol1 Even the old su35 engine makes it a great fighter. China has nothing that comes close to that engine, let alone the new engine.

    And the engine they are making right now by copying the export version of the su-35's engine they bought won't help.

    Russia was pissed off when they copied su-27 back in the 00s. Since then they probably make their stuff for China full of downgraded stuff and complicated the reverse engineering.

    Let's not forget that Pakistan wanted RD-93 engines over Chinese for the JF-17.

    That should speak volumes. Or how China did buy Su-35.

    But, oh well. Let the China boys have a false sense of pride.

    As you said, they have yet to actually do anything outside of their borders. They didn't help Syria or anything.

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