Role of the Pakistani military in Taliban emergence

@GarryB
Yes their exists (because of religious sentiments some sort of friendship b/w army & Talibans) but I can't speak about it...

This sort of result will be terrible for the Afghan people as they remain in a time bubble isolated from the rest of the world and living in the 1700s, but it is their choice. They could have supported the Soviets in the 1980s, or the west in the 2000s, but they have clearly chosen their own. Let them live with their choice... it is not the position of Russia to impose a choice like that on another country... that is what they learned in the 1980s.

Look talibans will fire the poppy fields likewise they will put to fire any lady going to school or not covering her head. This doesn't translate their will or effectiveness in dealing against drugs. Drugs are prohibited by Islam that is the reason there dealt with the poppy & not your understanding they are anti-narcotics of some sort. Indeed many drugs that are socially acceptable like HOOKA (tobacco) were & is permitted by Talibans & they also have ill effects on the health!!

Regarding the lifestyle of people coinciding with the stone age & your comment that they want it that way I refer you to this page..

http://socialpreys.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-was-afghanistan-then-image-gallery.html

nightcrawler wrote:@GarryB
Yes their exists (because of religious sentiments some sort of friendship b/w army & Talibans) but I can't speak about it...

The Talibans were the creation of Pakistan Army and ISI and was part of its strategy to control Afganistan via proxy and to gain strategic depth versus India.

What happened was after 5 years since Soviet left there was factionalism amongst warlord and they fought amongst each other and divided the country , people were fed up ISI sought an opportunity to create a force which were developed with people along the madrasas of AF-PAK border who were religious rigid and were ambitious , aided with the help of pakistan army they invaded and reached kabul and killed the previous ruler under soviets.

Initially people were happy but they soon realised Taliban were monster with their rigid rule and which will put their country centuries backward not that they were not there but it would make it more worse.

Infact every thing was set right for it to rule Afganistan for long time and Pakistan Army to gain strategic depth , but then 9/11 happened and Pakistan was forced by Bush to do a U turn on taliban since the latter was hell bent in supporting Al Quiada.

Well the rest is history , so the bottom line is Taliban was pakistans creation and later it turned to be a monster whose some splinter faction even the ISI cannot control , the hakani faction is controlled by ISI.

Austin I have voted for your post; because even though I a Pakistani but willnt hide from the authenticity of your post

Regarding the lifestyle of people coinciding with the stone age & your comment that they want it that way

I would suggest to you that the men might like life under the taleban but I rather doubt all the women like being denied education to any level and basically be trapped inside the family house till they are 11 or 12 years old to be married off to some dirty older man they have never met to be trapped in his kitchen and bedroom for the rest of their lives.

I am sure a few men don't like that either.

This doesn't translate their will or effectiveness in dealing against drugs.

The Russians don't care about the Afghans using drugs. What they care about is the enormous volume of cheap drugs currently coming out of Afghanistan to Russia.

They don't care why the Afghans burn the poppy fields and kill the growers, they just care that they do it.

At the end of the day the current administration seems to not care, and the Taleban in the past have a clear proven record in dealing effectively with the problem.

Whether they destroy the poppies because they are red or because they are a source of drugs is not important. The fact is that they dealt with the problem and the current democratic regime does not seem interested in doing the same.

Russia has no obligation to spread an ideology... it is neither up to them to give Afghans freedom or democracy or both. Right now the problem is drugs and I really don't think they care how it is dealt with.

The Talibans were the creation of Pakistan Army and ISI and was part of its strategy to control Afganistan via proxy and to gain strategic depth versus India.

Not strictly true.

The Taleban were created by conditions in Afghanistan where warlords had total control of everything and a group of students did some mob justice to solve a particular problem and everything grew from there.

The Pakistan Army and ISI didn't create them, but certainly supported them and made them into a powerful force with weapons and money and support.

GarryB wrote:The Pakistan Army and ISI didn't create them, but certainly supported them and made them into a powerful force with weapons and money and support.

Ofcourse they did , the Talibs or Students of Islam did not came from within Afghanistan but were people from AF-PAK border who were trained in Madarasa there by PA/ISI , infact it was a brilliant strategy to take control of Afghanistan via proxy , it only failed due to 9/11 , I recollect reading how the indian were scared of taliban taking control over afghanistan and how that would impact kashmir.

My understanding was that the Taleban was created when a one eyed Afghan found out that a local girl had been kidnapped by a local warlord and was doing inappropriate things to her and he gathered together some like minded fellows who happened to be students and they got revenge on the warlord over the incident.

After that other people with problems/injustices went to that group to solve their problems with other groups that were too powerful for them to deal with on their own.

Now I know you will laugh, but this is what was on Discovery.

Normally I don't believe anything on Discovery because it is normally coffee table magazine crap for the masses, but they included the head of Pakistan claiming their support for the Taleban was part of the cold war fight against the commies and that after the Americans stopped funding (when the Soviets left Afghanistan) they had to find a side and a reason to keep up the fight and the Taleban was the side they chose but they emphasise that they chose the Taleban... they didn't create the Taleban.

I guess either way it really doesn't matter whether they created them or not... to a westerner with our high morals and judgmental views they are barbaric.
To the Russians where women are generally respected and it is perfectly normal to have women doctors and professionals I would expect they think the Talebans views on women are backward and archaic.
It is interesting that someone would think the Taleban are better for Afghans than communism.

Especially when we look at China and realise that communism and economic stagnation or backwards economic policy are not actually linked.

I myself say that Talibans were the creation of ISI in attempt to counter Soviet probable invasion...The fact that our community is very religious orientated gave a further petition to muster a large sum of people for Jihad cause in the guise of Talibans...to fight what to them were godless-bastards!!

it only failed due to 9/11 , I recollect reading how the Indian were scared of taliban taking control over afghanistan and how that would impact Kashmir.

Sir that isn't true at all & rather a very common misunderstanding. Now I must say that ISI after 1990s or should I say after Soviet break-up literally had no combat, financial links with the Talibans nor any echelons. The notion that India get scared by them is another misunderstanding because two fighters... media/people usually misjudge. Talibans are solely Afghani(pashtuns) caring about Afghanistan & Indians are feared by Kashmiri freedom fighters which aren't Talibans nor any pushtuns & guess what we till date support them; so you see two different freedoms fighters but because of beard & outlooks they look same

I myself say that Talibans were the creation of ISI in attempt to counter Soviet probable invasion...The fact that our community is very religious orientated gave a further petition to muster a large sum of people for Jihad cause in the guise of Talibans...to fight what to them were godless-bastards!!

The Taliban were not a fighting force till well after 1990, so Pakistani support for them cannot be justifed by saying they were supporting good muslims fighting godless-bastards. Supporting the Taliban in the 1990s was supporting muslims fighting muslims fighting muslims.

The Northern Alliance was one of the few factions that managed to stand up against the taliban and they were not communist.

The Russians supported the NA but after the breakup of the Soviet Union they were no longer communist godless bastards, they allowed religious choice including muslim options.

The simple matter of fact is that the Soviets in the 1980s were not anti muslim either and did nothing to try to suppress the muslim religion in Afghanistan.

In fact the only godless bastard in this discussion... is me.

The Taliban were not a fighting force till well after 1990, so Pakistani support for them cannot be justifed by saying they were supporting good muslims fighting godless-bastards. Supporting the Taliban in the 1990s was supporting muslims fighting muslims fighting muslims.

Yes they were a fighting force but in the usual sporadic group formation & not organised in a manner that was in 1990s...still they were a potent fighting weapon used in the name of religion

The Northern Alliance was one of the few factions that managed to stand up against the taliban and they were not communist.

The Russians supported the NA but after the breakup of the Soviet Union they were no longer communist godless bastards, they allowed religious choice including muslim options.

The simple matter of fact is that the Soviets in the 1980s were not anti Muslim either and did nothing to try to suppress the muslim religion in Afghanistan.

I know Pakistan made a gross error in supporting Talibans but the unrest culminated by the fact that Russian were on towards our sea ports (Afghanistan being the only land route) led our ISI to use Talibans in the so-called Jihad...plus if you take a peek in Pakistan politics there occurred a great harmony b/w Soviet & Pakistan in Bhutto era which was preceded by military dictator Zia ...the bone of contention that led all the Islamist drama against the commies

In fact the only godless bastard in this discussion... is me.

no offence I used the words "which to them were godless..."

I know Pakistan made a gross error in supporting Talibans but the unrest culminated by the fact that Russian were on towards our sea ports (Afghanistan being the only land route) led our ISI to use Talibans in the so-called Jihad...plus if you take a peek in Pakistan politics there occurred a great harmony b/w Soviet & Pakistan in Bhutto era which was preceded by military dictator Zia ...the bone of contention that led all the Islamist drama against the commies

Sorry... you actually think the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had something to do with expansionism and getting warm water ports?

That would not make any sense at all.

It would have been much easier from their point of view to either invade and occupy Iran or simply pour aid and support into Iran to make them open to letting the Soviets use one of their ports and land access to those ports if that was the goal. I am sure the Iranians would have welcomed Soviet direct support against Saddam plus nuclear energy technology heavily subsidised by the Soviets in the 1980s.

The Soviet Invasion had nothing to do with wanting warm water ports... they already had access to Cam Rahn Bay in Vietnam at the time of the invasion.

If you don't understand what the Soviets invaded Afghanistan then look closely at the bay of pigs invasion and the cuban missile crisis. In both cases two superpowers have directed energy at tiny little inconsequential countries way out of proportion to what they would have if those tiny countries had been in a geologically different place.

If Afghanistan was the Christmas Islands the Soviets would not have given a crap about CIA infiltration and attempts to subvert the population... just like if Cuba had been Fiji the US would not have cared a jot that the locals had thrown off an imperial dog collar and were looking around for a big country to support them.

no offence I used the words "which to them were godless..."

No offence was taken on my part.

It would have been much easier from their point of view to either invade and occupy Iran or simply pour aid and support into Iran to make them open to letting the Soviets use one of their ports and land access to those ports if that was the goal. I am sure the Iranians would have welcomed Soviet direct support against Saddam plus nuclear energy technology heavily subsidised by the Soviets in the 1980s.

Iran/Pakistan either way Russians need water ports..thats what we are taught in out text books...but I am open to discussion

Take a look at the map..u will see the shortest land route to the sea ports is via AfPak & not otherwise. Also this route can't be compared by Vietnam in any manner; water routes/clumsy infrastructure relative to British built railway system in Pakistan.

Plus Iranians never like Muslims to get hurt back in Afghanistan

Iran/Pakistan either way Russians need water ports..thats what we are taught in out text books...but I am open to discussion

Think about it... ignore reality and everything... just be logical.

What would be the point of having a warm water port?

They have no sea lanes of communication or commerce to protect.

Is Afghanistan and Pakistan a barrier to trade with someone?

The US has found what Pakistan is like for a trade route to support its operations in Afghanistan and the Soviets would know the locals would be rather more hostile to anything they would transport to any port they might occupy.

Look at this map:



Keeping in mind that all the Turkmenistan and Kazahkstan and Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan are all Soviet republics exactly what makes an invasion and occupation of Afghanistan AND Pakistan easier than simply going down through Iran?

At the time Pakistan was Americas best friend in the region... in return for some free fighter planes and tanks and more importantly help against Iraq in the 1980s that the Iranians would have been happy to lease a port in southern Iran if the Soviets built a nice railway from the north of Iran down to the south... plus guaranteed support against the US... and perhaps civilian nuclear reactors 20 years early. (the Germans started in the late 1970s and most of the problems the Russians have had with the project is that it is half German design and half Russian.)

The main question however is WTF do they need a warm water port for? They have icebreakers that allow them to operate in cold water ports already... it is the west that needs lots of bases to protect its sea lanes like the convoys taking material from the US to Europe.

It is like western surprise at the bomber gap... they didn't understand why the Russians didn't have so many bombers or inflight refuelling aircraft to support those bombers.
The simple fact is that strategic bombing campaigns are a western thing.

The real reason for the Soviet conflict in Afghanistan was that the CIA... after success in Iran in undermining democracy and starting to pillage the resources of Iran decided to continue the same program in Afghanistan. The CIA was kicked out of Iran in 1979, which was also the same year that the Soviets went in to support the Afghans to protect them from an insurrection.

Very simply they wanted an Afghan government that was friendly to the Soviet Union and unfriendly to the US. The US wants the same thing in Cuba, and Mexico and central and south america. It has nothing to do with the cold war or expansionism, and everything to do with stable borders and happy neighbours.

& who says Pakistan had bitter times with Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulfikar_Ali_Bhutto
1971-77..pak had a great deal of working affairs with Soviets

Soviet Contribution to Steel Mill

In January 1971 Pakistan and the USSR signed an agreement under which the latter agreed to provide techno-financial assistance for the construction of a coastal-based integrated steel mill at Karachi. The foundation stone of this vital and gigantic project was laid on 30 December 1973 by the Prime Minister of Pakistan Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. The mammoth construction and erection work of an integrated steel mill, never experienced before in the country, was carried out by a consortium of Pakistani construction companies under the overall supervision of Soviet experts.

Bhutto then was killed(courtesies of US backed dictator Zia-ul-Haq) who WAS the real perpetrator of this so-called Jihad on communists

Now your theory is not at all false as many Pakistan intellectuals feel Soviets as no threat given the above scenario.
However...
The whole of the Middle East is one unstable pot...based on shear religious mantra. Even USA acknowledges the faint friendship with the KSA & thats what the puppet Saudi regime. Given that the Soviets were a major power in those days it seems ( for a more ASSURED future) to invade these unstable regimes than making friendships with them!!

You must agree that after Islamic revolution in Iran Soviets were nothing but filthy kafirs to Iranians. Once they got the necessary help from Soviets they could kick them out based on the very tightly bonded religious clerics. On the other hand you must acknowledge that Pakistan unlike other Muslim majorities resembles much of Turkey & isn't much religious oriented..such can be seen that never in our political history religious political party won; always the secular progressive parties win

The Soviets would be happy to have warm relations with everyone... they didn't want enemies, they wanted to spread their ideology.

The problem for Pakistan was that the Soviets had a good relationship with India and Pakistans relationship with India required a relationship with the US.

Given that the Soviets were a major power in those days it seems ( for a more ASSURED future) to invade these unstable regimes than making friendships with them!!

Except that the Soviets didn't invade any country in the region. The leader of Afghanistan asked for Soviet support... much the same way the South Vietnamese invited the Americans to help them.

I've one query .

Who is arming and funding Taliabn in Afghanistan now ? US created them to harm soviets but now their prupose is obsolete and US is interested in running cocaine drug cartels with its puppet afghan govt to fund its intelligence oprtns worldwide . Then who is still behind taliban's back ?

Most funding was funnelled through the Pakistani ISS, but the money actually came from the US and Saudi Arabia... and other gulf states.

max steel wrote:I've one query .

Who is arming and funding Taliabn in Afghanistan now ? US created them to harm soviets but now their prupose is obsolete and US is interested in running cocaine drug cartels with its puppet afghan govt to fund its intelligence oprtns worldwide . Then who is still behind taliban's back ?

donations from sick fcks in need of a hellfire through their windows. also i believe afghan doesnt grow coca fields, but opium poppies.

max steel wrote:I've one query .

Who is arming and funding Taliabn in Afghanistan now ? US created them to harm soviets but now their prupose is obsolete and US is interested in running cocaine drug cartels with its puppet afghan govt to fund its intelligence oprtns worldwide . Then who is still behind taliban's back ?

NATO is still funding Taliban, haven't you read?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/13/us-trucks-security-taliban

US/UK and other NATO members but mainly US and UK are paying fees to Taliban so they do not attack their NATO supply routes, that is partially where Taliban gets its money from. Others are of course Wahabis in the region along with money making by selling drugs even tho Taliban destroyed all drug fields before NATO invasion because they are against drugs but they use it now to some part for their cause of fighting US and NATO.

GarryB wrote:Most funding was funnelled through the Pakistani ISS, but the money actually came from the US and Saudi Arabia... and other gulf states.

and Qatar