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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:08 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    1. This is not a new plane this is a variant of a frame with decades of exprience

    2. Like it or not China's navy is stronger then russia's this is what all the worlds naval experts agree one. Quality does not win a war, ask the germans how that went Russia may have better boats but they have far to few and would easily get overran.

    China is also very adapt at re-purposing stolen tech, they have shown that.

    3. Dude what does the Nazi's and jews have to do with this.....Honestly that not even cool you went there. I don't know why you did frankly but that's crossing a line.

    4. I have taken part in recovery operations, first off chances are the aircraft split apart after hitting the water it's not all going to be in one piece. they will not recover the wreck all the data they need are in it's black boxes. Wasting money to recover the wreck is pointless blow it up and that's it.

    5. You have a problem with some being critical of your nations navy?. sorry but that doesn't give you the right to attack someone because they don't agree with it. I am critical about my own nations military, you don't see me attacking people who say Abrams suck do you?. Sorry but The Russian Navy isn't what you crack it up to be. Patriotism is fine but don't let it blind you ether.

    6. You are missing the point it was an old Hornet not a brand spanking new one, now even the F-35 which I view as the single biggest flying piece of poo ever has done this. This was an aircraft from a known shitty supplier which didn't even have 40 hours on it and went down. If you cannot understand this not my problem.

    7. That's nice for Kaliber, I like the Kaliber but the Kaliber has nothing to do with this MIG.

    Could you please at least change abit the numbers... i also said 40 years and 40 flying hours, people will start thinking its the same person lol
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:08 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:What does the carrier have to do with this? the carrier was in no way at fault for this nor was it even a factor the plane failed here.

    Yes exactly an old frame it's not like this is a carrier passed T-50 these kind of problems should not be happening.

    I agree ditch them and let sukoi take over.

    Actually it is, because tho other aircraft maybe be unsafe I have over 15 years combat experience. Ground forces, it's a problem when a brand new piece of equipment fails like this in combat duty because it may pose a hazard to others. The frame maybe unsafe now we don't know so yes it does poses a problem to combat duty.

    I could list many reasons why but seems if I say one negative thing about the Russian navy people don't take well to it.

    We still do not know the exact reason for a crash, we just know it was "malfunction". Now if it is really as they say at the takeoff.. i could see engine stall as possibility (due to sea water mist? idk, guessing now here randomly) or FBW but again it should have 4 + analog backups...

    They said it crashed trying to land back on the carrier after a malfunction correct?.

    Also sure changed the numbers for you.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:09 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Notice the helicopters hoevering whole time around Kuz Smile

    These are combat sorties right? not drills? why are they sending the 33's in the air are they trying to intercept or deny airspace?
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:10 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Is it smoky? It is, it burns high sulfur content Mazut-100 on below required burning temperature and smokes like hell, and ye it is an issue.





    Hard to compare the smoking to anything.

    The Kittz Hawk had smoke on the US propaganda pictures, means that it has to have heavy smoke time periods.


    The Kuznetsov is under negative US/EU propaganda, so everyone show only heavy smoke state, not the average working condition.


    But by the net the K is actually one of the biggest boiler powered ship ever build, and similar ones has smoke trails on as well on positive propaganda pictures
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:30 pm

    Mig-29k was good when it was designed for USSR, 30-40 year ago. Since then, nothing was done by mig. Mig had plenty of time to make a semi-furtif carrier based fighter like rafale or super hornet. All they did is the Mig-35 which is a very good airplane but not a new one. It's much a big upgrade done very fast to present to India.

    Such a fighter would have interested China, Russia, India, Brazil for their AC and Egypt, Venezuela and some Asian countries searching for a cheap small fighter to complete their big Sukhois. They would have sold like 300-400 fighters if we take in acount that Inida will have 3 AC, Russia 2(with the Kuz), China at least 5-6 and Brazili 1.

    Mig 29k is no more competitive with Superhornet, F-35 and Rafale. India bought it because there was no other solution. For their new AC I'm pretty sure they will go for F-35 or Rafale.

    They clearly didn't see coming the need of a carrier based fighter on the internationnal market. Maybe they could make a new one with the help of sukhoi, a small Pak-Fa why not !! But I don't they will, their economical situation and their reputation arenot that good anymore.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:46 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Notice the helicopters hoevering whole time around Kuz Smile

    These are combat sorties right? not drills? why are they sending the 33's in the air are they trying to intercept or deny airspace?

    Well they are carrying only 4 AA missiles, so i guess those are just flying... around... maybe giving some cover to strikes in mainland by the wing on the ground but idk of range they can manage.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:55 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Is it smoky? It is, it burns high sulfur content Mazut-100 on below required burning temperature and smokes like hell, and ye it is an issue.





    Hard to compare the smoking to anything.

    The Kittz Hawk had smoke on the US propaganda pictures, means that it has to have heavy smoke time periods.


    The Kuznetsov is under negative US/EU propaganda, so everyone  show only heavy smoke state, not the average working condition.


    But by the net the K is actually one of the biggest boiler powered ship ever build, and similar ones has smoke trails on as well on positive propaganda pictures

    Yes, Hitty Hawks were filmed-taken pics of while smoking few times, however nothing even remotely bad as Kuz is. There are few shots of Kuz smoking so bad you could barely see the ship.

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    Post  A1RMAN Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:59 pm

    *sigh*

    One Mig-29K falls for unknown reason, and Mig29 is crap all of a sudden.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:59 pm

    Isos wrote:Mig-29k was good when it was designed for USSR, 30-40 year ago. Since then, nothing was done by mig. Mig had plenty of time to make a semi-furtif carrier based fighter like rafale or super hornet. All they did is the Mig-35 which is a very good airplane but not a new one. It's much a big upgrade done very fast to present to India.

    Such a fighter would have interested China, Russia, India, Brazil for their AC and Egypt, Venezuela and some Asian countries searching for a cheap small fighter to complete their big Sukhois. They would have sold like 300-400 fighters if we take in acount that Inida will have 3 AC, Russia 2(with the Kuz), China at least 5-6 and Brazili 1.

    Mig 29k is no more competitive with Superhornet, F-35 and Rafale. India bought it because there was no other solution. For their new AC I'm pretty sure they will go for F-35 or Rafale.

    They clearly didn't see coming the need of a carrier based fighter on the internationnal market. Maybe they could make a new one with the help of sukhoi, a small Pak-Fa why not !! But I don't they will, their economical situation and their reputation arenot that good anymore.

    Well you had propositions like Sukhoi S-54/55 for carrier based operations but it never went beyond drawings. Idk, India might after all again opt for navalised MiG-35 as they already have certain infrastructure for MiG-29Ks... however ye, Rafale might be in play now too.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:01 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:*sigh*

    One Mig-29K falls for unknown reason, and Mig29 is crap all of a sudden.

    Well, 29s were never the shiniest apple in the basket.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:09 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:*sigh*

    One Mig-29K falls for unknown reason, and Mig29 is crap all of a sudden.

    MIG's are known for their problems.
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:18 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Is it smoky? It is, it burns high sulfur content Mazut-100 on below required burning temperature and smokes like hell, and ye it is an issue.





    Hard to compare the smoking to anything.

    The Kittz Hawk had smoke on the US propaganda pictures, means that it has to have heavy smoke time periods.


    The Kuznetsov is under negative US/EU propaganda, so everyone  show only heavy smoke state, not the average working condition.


    But by the net the K is actually one of the biggest boiler powered ship ever build, and similar ones has smoke trails on as well on positive propaganda pictures

    Yes, Hitty Hawks were filmed-taken pics of while smoking few times, however nothing even remotely bad as Kuz is. There are few shots of Kuz smoking so bad you could barely see the ship.

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    Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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    Post  KiloGolf Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:24 pm

    Part of RuN's baby steps in carrier ops and naval expeditions is blunders like these. Cross half way around the globe to Syrian coast only to have one out of three (or four?), new carrier-borne strike fighters ditched in the Med on day1. It's bad but hardly unexpected. They need to press on with Naval reform for sure and try catching up with MN on that department.

    Still long way to go.
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:59 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Ned86 wrote: Pile of something about Russian Subs built by means of alien technology

    Russia, submarine, powerful, mega, build, Russia, powerful, nuclear, Oscar, powerful, submarine...

    Yugoslavia tracked subs in Adriatic sea with Koni-class frigate which had dipping sonar lol, please.. go away.

    Can you tell more about that ? What subs it tracked, distance ...
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:28 pm

    [quote="Isos"]
    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Is it smoky? It is, it burns high sulfur content Mazut-100 on below required burning temperature and smokes like hell, and ye it is an issue.





    Hard to compare the smoking to anything.

    The Kittz Hawk had smoke on the US propaganda pictures, means that it has to have heavy smoke time periods.


    The Kuznetsov is under negative US/EU propaganda, so everyone  show only heavy smoke state, not the average working condition.


    But by the net the K is actually one of the biggest boiler powered ship ever build, and similar ones has smoke trails on as well on positive propaganda pictures

    Yes, Hitty Hawks were filmed-taken pics of while smoking few times, however nothing even remotely bad as Kuz is. There are few shots of Kuz smoking so bad you could barely see the ship.

    Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


    Typical example of biased data collection.
    The starting condition is the us hardware godlike, means the typical condition of the kitty is the small smoke, the big is not typical, the typical condition of the kuz is the black smoke, the non smoking is unusual.



    The kity shown with warm engine, in the middle of ocean going with full speed. This is a boiler + steam turbine combination.

    The Russian shown leaving port with cold engine.

    Cold engine smoke, warm not smoke. This doesn't depend on the nationality of the ship.

    Kuz has ten boiler, ten knots should not needs more than three.
    So, if the kuz increase its speed then the new, cold boiler will generate smoke.

    If the captain want to go to full speed from 10 knots on short notice, then it will generate a lot of smoke from the seven cold boiler for a short period of time.


    this is true for all ships. Even for the kitty .

    Every military try to increase the morale of the service personnels / civilian population. They call it as propaganda. It generates bias.

    Example, the US nuclear industry makes way less reliable equipment than the Russian.

    the CCCP has one serious reactor meltdown, the US nuc industry had four serious meltdown, and only one was contained.

    However if you ask anyone on the street he will tell the opposite.


    Interesting : )




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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:47 pm

    Militarov wrote:........

    Well they are carrying only 4 AA missiles, so i guess those are just flying... around... maybe giving some cover to strikes in mainland by the wing on the ground but idk of range they can manage.

    They are taking over part of air cover workload so multiroles from Hmeim can focus on land attack work.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:48 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Ned86 wrote: Pile of something about Russian Subs built by means of alien technology

    Russia, submarine, powerful, mega, build, Russia, powerful, nuclear, Oscar, powerful, submarine...

    Yugoslavia tracked subs in Adriatic sea with Koni-class frigate which had dipping sonar lol, please.. go away.

    Can you tell more about that ? What subs it tracked, distance ...

    Wouldnt know the distances or many specifics regarding it as i am no longer in contact with the person who told me the stories decade and a half ago basically (friend of my father from the college, served on Koni as commander of "engine room"). But i know which subs were in question, Italian Sauro-class, Albanian Whiskey-class and US Sturgeon-class.
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    Post  medo Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:23 pm

    It's nice to see Su-33 equipped with ECM pods. They have now 4 AAMs, 2 ECM pods and 4 hardpoints free for bomb load for ground attacks.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:53 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:*sigh*

    One Mig-29K falls for unknown reason, and Mig29 is crap all of a sudden.

    MIG's are known for their problems.

    Yet again not knowing what you are talking about.

    MiG-29 failures are either a navy thing or Piss poor maintenance for the most part. MiG has had less crashes with newer equipment than the so called superior Lockheed or Boeing. Biggest losers in loss of aircraft for Migs is India, with its older Migs. Mig-29 is hardly on that list.

    1 failed. Seems the others are still flying.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:03 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Ned86 wrote: Pile of something about Russian Subs built by means of alien technology

    Russia, submarine, powerful, mega, build, Russia, powerful, nuclear, Oscar, powerful, submarine...

    Yugoslavia tracked subs in Adriatic sea with Koni-class frigate which had dipping sonar lol, please.. go away.

    Can you tell more about that ? What subs it tracked, distance ...

    Wouldnt know the distances or many specifics regarding it as i am no longer in contact with the person who told me the stories decade and a half ago basically (friend of my father from the college, served on Koni as commander of "engine room"). But i know which subs were in question, Italian Sauro-class, Albanian Whiskey-class and US Sturgeon-class.

    that type of sonar can catch the russian/soviet submarines only in shallow water.

    In deep water it can catch the chinese/us submarines l. It can not see the russian nuclear submarines, and maybe the US seawolf submarines.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:33 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    Typical example of biased data collection.
    The starting condition is the us hardware godlike, means the typical condition of the kitty is the small smoke, the big is not typical, the typical condition of the kuz is the black smoke, the non smoking is unusual.

    The kity shown with warm engine, in the middle of ocean going with full speed. This is a boiler + steam turbine combination.

    The Russian shown leaving port with cold engine.

    Cold engine smoke, warm not smoke. This doesn't depend on the nationality of the ship.

    Kuz has ten boiler, ten knots should not needs more than three.
    So, if the kuz increase its speed then the new, cold boiler will generate smoke.

    If the captain want to go to full speed from 10 knots on short notice,  then it will generate a lot of smoke from the seven cold boiler for a short period of time.

    this is true for all ships. Even for the kitty .

    Interesting : )
    Hi, as a newcomer I am not sure how long you have been following things around here particularly photos en route prior to your 'biased data collection' comment.

    As you say 'interesting'. Before saying what you have, did you consider that the K was smoking like a good un for the whole trip from the cold Arctic to the warm Med? According to your theory we should be congratulating the Chief Engineer for his astonishing ability to keep an engine cold all the way to generate good smoke.

    Right!

    As any motorcyclist will tell you, the dark smoke out of a diesel exhaust is unburnt fuel. Almost invariably caused by something not quite right from a wide variety of reasons. This is not just Russian ships, it is a few articles of military gear where Russians smoke more than Western products. But not going there as its OT.
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    Post  mack8 Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:26 am

    Bmpd article:
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2256944.html

    In the first video, it appears that actually MiG-29K also took part in operations, or is that older footage? Any confirmation either way?

    As to the current discussion regarding the MiG-29K crash, i find it dissapointing that some respected members - there are couple of trolls who suddenly are active here, but they are to be ignored - seem to embrace the kind of view that you would read in the pro-american agitprop whenever a russian aircraft crashes. The reality is sooner or later aircraft WILL crash, we will (unfortunately) see Su-35, Su-30, Su-34 or T-50s and so on at one point or the other, it's inevitable. Does that mean that whenever one will crash, it is "irrefutable" proof of how crap, badly built, badly maintained they are, and similar bashing i've seen said here? Like it was pointed many times before, i guess that dozens  of the uber-superior and invincible Amerika strong! aircraft crashing over the last few years  is irrefutable proof of how crap they are, right?
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    Post  miroslav Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:39 am

    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Ned86 wrote: Pile of something about Russian Subs built by means of alien technology

    Russia, submarine, powerful, mega, build, Russia, powerful, nuclear, Oscar, powerful, submarine...

    Yugoslavia tracked subs in Adriatic sea with Koni-class frigate which had dipping sonar lol, please.. go away.

    Can you tell more about that ? What subs it tracked, distance ...

    These stories are actually true, I know it because my dad was the commanding officer on the Kotor class of frigates, its a highly modified Koni class, and they spotted the actual periscope and turn the ship directly at it and the submarine went under, most likely to international waters to avoid an incident. Not sure was there a sonar contact at all. But it was standard pissing contest, if some one was crazy enough to arm the RBU-6000 they would later have to deal with a couple of F-16s from Aviano and the ship only had an OSA-M SAM for protection additionally the AK-276 did not have any proximity fuze ammo, the Russian refused to sell it.
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    Post  hoom Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:36 am

    the K is actually one of the biggest boiler powered ship ever build
    That's actually a pretty interesting point. Nimitzes are technically 'boiler' powered too but 'conventional steam' the only competition would be similar sized Kitty Hawk/JFK.
    How's the new boilers on Vikramaditya going in terms of smoke? Did the Chinese go with the old design boilers or build new design & how is that going?

    Mig-29k was good when it was designed for USSR, 30-40 year ago. Since then, nothing was done by mig. All they did is the Mig-35 which is a very good airplane but not a new one.
    I thought these new Mig-29K are upgraded to be basically Mig-35? Or perhaps better put Mig-35 is a further upgraded un-naval version of Mig-29K.

    I see no point making judgement on the crash until more is known about what happened unshaven
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:04 am

    Me
    "New unproven, largely untested aircraft sometimes fail when used for the first few times..." -

    Mil
    MiG-29 is exactly 40 years old platform, that is the reason why the damn thing was picked to replace Su-33s coz its derivates were already in service and could be produced on same line in short period of time.

    What?

    The MiG-29K is based on the MiG-29 and was chosen because it was in production for India... unlike the Su-33 which was not in production... the Su-33 was based on the Su-27 which is just as old as the MiG-29.

    The MiG-29M2 design is new and the MiG-35 and MiG-29KR use that new design.

    They have never been used in combat from a carrier so they are new.

    What does the carrier have to do with this? the carrier was in no way at fault for this nor was it even a factor the plane failed here.

    Yes exactly an old frame it's not like this is a carrier passed T-50 these kind of problems should not be happening.

    I agree ditch them and let sukoi take over.

    Actually it is, because tho other aircraft maybe be unsafe I have over 15 years combat experience. Ground forces, it's a problem when a brand new piece of equipment fails like this in combat duty because it may pose a hazard to others. The frame maybe unsafe now we don't know so yes it does poses a problem to combat duty.

    I could list many reasons why but seems if I say one negative thing about the Russian navy people don't take well to it.

    Ignorance is bliss.

    The MiG-29KR is not an old aircraft... they are new made aircraft that have not been flying on the K for the last 20 years... apart from a few MiG-33s tested these aircraft were only made a year or two ago and have not been fully tested on the carrier... that is the whole point of the deployment.

    The F-22 is an old design... it is clearly based on the MiG-25 in basic layout... copied via the F-15 and given stealth shaping.... a 1950s plane really.

    Notice the helicopters hoevering whole time around Ku

    Duh... I wonder why the rescue helos would operate during take offs and landings... I mean surely they should be below decks in the hangar play cards.


    1. This is not a new plane this is a variant of a frame with decades plus years experience.

    Bullshit.

    The basic design is not new but these are new build aircraft based on the MiG-29M2 that have never operated from the Kuznetsov previously. The only MiG operating from the K was the MiG-33 and that was quite some time ago and a different design.

    2. Like it or not China's navy is stronger then russia's this is what all the worlds naval experts agree one. Quality does not win a war, ask the germans how that went Russia may have better boats but they have far to few and would easily get overran.

    So you are saying that the Soviet Navy was superior to the US Navy if numbers are more important than quality or training.

    3. Dude what does the Nazi's and jews have to do with this.....Honestly that not even cool you went there. I don't know why you did frankly but that's crossing a line.

    Your navy friends... I assume western navy? Same propaganda machine... they will say the same as you. Probably same hate for Russia as well.

    But OK to hate Russia... mentioning nazis and jews is not acceptable, but OK to hate Russia... yes, I know your rules.

    4. I have taken part in recovery operations, first off chances are the aircraft split apart after hitting the water it's not all going to be in one piece. they will not recover the wreck all the data they need are in it's black boxes. Wasting money to recover the wreck is pointless blow it up and that's it.

    The Med is not that deep. they have a lot of new toys for underwater exploration. The CIA has a history of recovering stuff for intel purposes... it would be a useful exercise to try to recover as much as possible.

    5. You have a problem with some being critical of your nations navy?. sorry but that doesn't give you the right to attack someone because they don't agree with it. I am critical about my own nations military, you don't see me attacking people who say Abrams suck do you?. Sorry but The Russian Navy isn't what you crack it up to be. Patriotism is fine but don't let it blind you ether.

    Russia is not my nation... never been there.

    Nothing to do with patriotism or pride... it is the display of ignorance that motivates me.

    6. You are missing the point it was an old Hornet not a brand spanking new one, now even the F-35 which I view as the single biggest flying piece of poo ever has done this. This was an aircraft from a known shitty supplier which didn't even have a couple dozen hours on it and went down. If you cannot understand this not my problem.

    An old Hornet that has been tested and used operationally for decades... all problems and issues with hardware and software and training have been ironed out yet it still crashes.

    Brand new MiG-29KR design that has never been used operationally before by Russia has a crash and MiG needs to be put out of business... if you have ever seen a MiG on the K it was probably the MiG-33 over a decade ago... since then only Su-33s and Su-25 trainer aircraft on the K.

    The Indians order some MiG-29Ks and Russia orders some too because the production costs would be greatly reduced... this is their first real deployment... do you understand... they don't have the western avionics and equipment the Indian Navy has... they are new.

    You don't even know why one crashed but the Russian Navy is pathetic and MiG should stop making planes...

    7. That's nice for Kaliber, I like the Kaliber but the Kaliber has nothing to do with this MIG.

    Kalibr is what the Russian Navy has used when MiG-29Ks are not available, and it is what it will continue to use when MiG-29Ks are doing other things... when it comes to land attack the MiG-29K is plan B. The primary job of the K is defending a group of ships, with that group of ships able to attack rather more targets with land attack cruise missiles than the K can attack with its MiGs or Sukhois.

    These are combat sorties right? not drills? why are they sending the 33's in the air are they trying to intercept or deny airspace?

    They are in situ to train... would it not be normal to test the Su-33s against ground targets and also form a CAP for the ships...

    Mig 29k is no more competitive with Superhornet, F-35 and Rafale. India bought it because there was no other solution. For their new AC I'm pretty sure they will go for F-35 or Rafale.

    Pretty much anything that was put in the MiG-35 could be put in the MiG-29K.

    The simple fact is that there is no point in making the MiG-29K into the MiG-35 when the PAK FA will likely become a carrier aircraft in the next decade or so.

    More importantly the MiG-29K does not need to defeat any of those aircraft you mention... S-400 can shoot them down while Onyx will sink the carriers they operate from...

    The MiG-29K is just an extra air defence layer to stop enemy aircraft and cruise missiles from attacking the russian ships.


    Well, 29s were never the shiniest apple in the basket.

    Well that happens when everyone spits and no one polishes.

    It was MiG-29s in western tests that kicked the asses of all current western fighters of the period in the early 1990s... the main problem for the MiG was that later models never really got a chance, so while it was the primative export MiGs that defeated all those western fighters... largely because of HMS and R-73s, the west had time to learn its strengths and weaknesses and develop tactics to deal with them.

    Of course the western powers were so ignorant to think they had the MiG beaten now despite lots of upgrades that focused on its weaknesses... they had a very low opinion of the MiG but there was still the Sukhoi to scare everyone into increasing the budget for everything.

    The result is that the west will likely get a nasty shock the next time it comes up against a competently handled MiG... look at the Indian pilots in MiG-21s against US pilots...

    They keep making the same mistakes yet call themselves professionals...

    Part of RuN's baby steps in carrier ops and naval expeditions is blunders like these.

    Obviously they would lose no aircraft and have no problems if they stayed at home and did nothing with their heads up their asses.

    Of course Americas baby steps in urban combat led to the blunder of losing men to IEDs...


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