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    MIG-21, MIG-25, MIG-29SMT. Your views

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:28 pm

    MIG-21, MIG-25, MIG-29SMT. Your views - Page 3 006811
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:16 am

    Nice.

    The MiG-25 has two 11 ton thrust engines, while the MiG-31 has two 15 ton thrust engines... there were plans to put more powerful engines in the MiG-25 but they decided to just use them in the MiG-31 instead.

    Would be interesting to see what difference more powerful engines would make to the performance of the MiG-25... especially engines designed to operate at very high speeds... some sort of bypass turbojet where the bypass air could be used as a ramjet at very high flight speeds...

    Of course that new high temperature aluminium they are developing would do amazing things for the MiG-25 by making it much more heat resistant while making it much much lighter too.

    Replacing old 1950s equipment with modern new stuff would also lighten it and make it more effective... I rather suspect more sophisticated and modern engines would make it much cheaper to operate too... lighter weight means it would climb and accelerate much faster and use less fuel doing so, and a modern ramjet mode turbojet means fuel burn sustaining high speed wont be too bad either... it would be an interesting aircraft for New Zealand to move around the huge airspace we have down here to patrol our large area of water that we manage. Aussie would probably find it useful too for mapping and locating things over its enormous territory.

    The Foxbats had pretty impressive data collecting equipment, and with modern equivalents it would be able to collect enormous amounts of data per flight... including up to rather high altitudes too.

    Would be an interesting science plane but being Soviet and Russian neither countries would even consider it of course.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun May 17, 2020 3:12 pm

    Am I correct in saying that the mig-21 is the oldest service fighter aircraft in service?

    I know DPRK still have su-7, (although some sources say it came into production at the same time as mig-21) and still have Shenyang j-5 / j-6 and mig-15 as a trainer (which isn't used as fighter aircraft) we also have the issue of are they really still in flying condition. When they have their various parades u never see any of these flying only l-39, su-25, mig-29. So in theory we could ignore DPRK stats as very unclear and very likely out of service.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon May 18, 2020 3:48 am

    The F-5 is a similar age as is the Mirage III and the F-4, but from the figures I have seen, the MiG-21 entered service before they did, and most of the previous generation aircraft have been retired already... so you might be right.

    Western experts wont mention that because it is not in their favour to do so.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon May 18, 2020 10:54 am

    GarryB wrote:The F-5 is a similar age as is the Mirage III and the F-4, but from the figures I have seen, the MiG-21 entered service before they did, and most of the previous generation aircraft have been retired already... so you might be right.

    Western experts wont mention that because it is not in their favour to do so.

    yeah and they dont like to give any praise to the Mig-21. I know it had some teething problems at the start but doesnt all aircraft. that fact remains this aircraft is still pretty decent and even some western pilots have said it a worthy adversary. Check out the Indian and USA Cope exercise of how good the Mig-21 are makes a good read.

    can i ask your opinion was the design of the aircraft good? in terms of the engine etc, you dont see that type of single engine aircraft any more (nose cone)

    If Russia was determined to bring back a single engined aircraft do you think to save on costs they could redesign the Mig-21 and bring it back? a redesign as in make slightly bigger to fit better radar, upgrade avionics (which it has done over the years Bison, Bis, 93 etc) but still keeping it fairly small aircraft. I believe the engine is still pretty decent even in todays standards and there is always scope to improve it. I sometimes thing its better to take something thats older but still good and improve on it especially if the desired outcome isnt something too high tec or the needs arent as great. but as i mentioned on other threads this would most likely steal sales from yak-130 and Mig-29M2. But i would imagine a new upgraded and redesigned Mig-21 wouldnt cost that much to redesign in relation to building a new aircraft from scratch and it would cost less than a Mig-29M2. And it would appeal to current and previous countries who operate/operated Mig-21. and maintenance would be cheaper than Mig-29M2 and it would be better than the Yak-130. to me its not a bad idea. and if it can steal sales from F-16, Gripen, T-50
    Isos
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    MIG-21, MIG-25, MIG-29SMT. Your views - Page 3 Empty Back in 1991 two iraqi mig-25 engaged 2 unsupported f-15.

    Post  Isos Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:42 pm

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurra_Air_Battle

    Back in 1991 two iraqi mig-25 engaged 2 unsupported f-15.

    Mig-25 managed to hit one f-15 which then crashed according to iraqi but denied by US who say the plane survived.

    The most funny is it happened in close combat, f-15 missiles miserably failed against this non manoeuvrable mig-25.

    This combat shows the real value of f-15 when fighting fair fights with no support or overwhelming numbers. It's a shitty plane that can't fight a rocket plane like the mig-25 in dogfight.

    Would be funny to see it fight a Rafale or su-35.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:10 am

    Most of the time you don't realise you are being engaged till your self defence system tells you that you are being targeted... against a third world country with old model fighters that is usually when the HATO missile explodes very close to them so they get very little chance to test the HATO fighters.

    When the playing field is level (which the US spends trillions and takes great care to ensure never happens) then results can be surprising... for instance the experience of Indian fighter pilots against US pilots where the conditions are more equal.

    The US doesn't fight fair and will use tactics to maximise their advantages including fighting at night and in dust storms against Iraqi tanks that don't have the thermal imagers the US tanks and IFVs have... it is sensible but not taken in to account when describing the conflict so the US appears to be rather more superior than they actually are.

    If Russia was determined to bring back a single engined aircraft do you think to save on costs they could redesign the Mig-21 and bring it back?

    I think the few dollars they save on servicing one engine instead of two would disappear in the clouds of smoke of single engine fighters with an engine problem that crashes because it only has one.

    That is not to say twin engined fighters don't crash... of course they do... ironically their worst aircraft for crashing was the Yak38/M and it had three engines, but any of them failing during landing would lead to a crash...

    The MiG-29M/2 is about as cheap as you would want... anything cheaper would not be effective enough to be useful... and at probably about 30 million a plane could be quite cost effective because their operational costs would be lower than larger aircraft too...
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Most of the time you don't realise you are being engaged till your self defence system tells you that you are being targeted... against a third world country with old model fighters that is usually when the HATO missile explodes very close to them so they get very little chance to test the HATO fighters.
    These third world countries would do well to try the Soviet approach - ground-launched missiles as enablers of air power.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:17 am

    The MiG-29M/2 is about as cheap as you would want... anything cheaper would not be effective enough to be useful... and at probably about 30 million a plane could be quite cost effective because their operational costs would be lower than larger aircraft too...

    Well that's quite true in terms of purchasing price. Jf-17, tejas, gripen or f-35 are equally or more expensive than a mig-29M/35.

    But then we need to compare the opperational cost and maintenance over its service life.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:26 am

    These third world countries would do well to try the Soviet approach - ground-launched missiles as enablers of air power.

    Actually the opposite, you are thinking of air defence and air power... third world countries normally have neither in any strength... certainly not enough to withstand an attack from a greater power.

    HATO doesn't have a land based IADS, their air defence is managed by their air forces in general and is ambulance at the bottom of the hill type defence.

    The best a small weak country could hope for is single missile launch tubes for something like Pantsir dispersed around the place and hidden with passive optical search and detection/ID and tracking and command guidance tracking of the missiles, the enemy would get very little warning and the missiles would streak up and hit their targets... chaff and flares and DIRCMS would be ineffective, and no vehicle exposed by the launch to attack.

    The current missiles reach 15km altitude which means only a few fighters could operate safely, but 15km is not a hard limit, and the new 40km range missiles with the bigger more powerful solid rocket booster might be able to reach much higher with a vertical launch.

    Otherwise you are looking at enormous costs for communications and command systems and of course lots of ground based air defence equipment that HATO prides itself in being able to pick off over time and degrade...

    There is no easy quick cheap solution to make a third world country safe... and if there was they would already be doing it.

    Well that's quite true in terms of purchasing price. Jf-17, tejas, gripen or f-35 are equally or more expensive than a mig-29M/35.

    But then we need to compare the opperational cost and maintenance over its service life.

    Most companies that sell fighters make most of their money on the support and maintenance contracts... for the Russian military and Russian companies there are laws limiting the profit margin allowed... something like 4.5%... for export it is generally 20-30%... for export to a customer that bought your planes cheap from a third party then of course charges will be higher, but better terms can be agreed by buying more aircraft from the maker for instance.

    There clearly cannot possibly be profit margin limits for western companies... and the costs they have to cover are much higher...

    Another aspect of course is performance... you could buy brand new F-5s only to find they are not much use... nice and cheap, but not very effective... which seemed to be the criticism of the Gripen from Finland officials. Having to use more than one plane to do a job is normal, you don't normally operate aircraft individually anyway, but when you need to send 8 instead of four to get the job done or find no number of smaller fighters can do the job then money savings don't come in to it.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:50 am

    Isos wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurra_Air_Battle

    Back in 1991 two iraqi mig-25 engaged 2 unsupported f-15.

    Mig-25 managed to hit one f-15 which then crashed according to iraqi but denied by US who say the plane survived.

    The most funny is it happened in close combat, f-15 missiles miserably failed against this non manoeuvrable mig-25.

    This combat shows the real value of f-15 when fighting fair fights with no support or overwhelming numbers. It's a shitty plane that can't fight a rocket plane like the mig-25 in dogfight.

    Would be funny to see it fight a Rafale or su-35.

    One of Israels F-15's was hit in Syria by something. And the Houthis downed one in Yemen too

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