Russian Army ATGM Thread

@Medo

It have different optical sight than prototype with two windows, so it could also have TI night channel inside.

You could be right. We'll see if it's confirmed.

Here's a better picture from the front together with a Hrizantema-S battery command vehicle

Interesting... the optics are much larger...

The radar position also seems more substantial with a proper turret.

The older model had a retractable radar with a large hatch to the rear that covered in when stowed.


On the command vehicle that flat array antenna seems to have a box it folds back in to as well (note from the photo of the launch vehicle you get a side view of the command vehicle).

The command vehicle also seems to have a very large box on its rear deck???

Are they air scoops on its top? Air conditioner? AUX power unit?

Any body seen a photo of its spec board?

Considering the Kornet went from 1.2m armour penetration to 1.3m, and from 5.5km range to 8-10km range I wonder what missile performance increase if any this missile has achieved.

Actually if they had any brains... and they certainly do... they should unify the optics with this system and the the optics on the Mi-28N/M as both will be used to guide the same missile in the same way by the "gunners" of both vehicles.

Would have liked to have seen them go to a quad launcher and if they are going to stick with the arm launcher perhaps made it longer with a radar/optical package on a similar arm next to it so the vehicle could remain behind cover with the sensors popping up to search for targets and then to guide missiles to targets.

Yes... I am very difficult to buy Christmas presents for... (AK-200 plus a Pecheneg, a APSB suppressed Stechkin machine pistol (yes it is old) and an SV-98 will do this year).

Apparently the Hrizantema isn't being considered for Russian Army service. It's seen as a 1990's tech with limited upgrade potential. Looks like they'll be sticking with the Kornet and (hopefully soon) the Hermes as the LR ATGM system

GarryB wrote:Yes... I am very difficult to buy Christmas presents for... (AK-200 plus a Pecheneg, a APSB suppressed Stechkin machine pistol (yes it is old) and an SV-98 will do this year).

I'm glad we're not relos

Cyberspec wrote:@Medo

It have different optical sight than prototype with two windows, so it could also have TI night channel inside.

You could be right. We'll see if it's confirmed.

Here's a better picture from the front together with a Hrizantema-S battery command vehicle

From this angle optical sight in Krizanthema is clearly seen and it have two windows and it for sure have one of Thales Chaterine thermal imagers, which are produced by license in UOMZ.

This battery post look like a replacement for older PRP vehicles. Radar, which it have looks like small Fara radar, but to use together with Krizanthema it would be better to have larger Credo radar with longer range.

Would have liked to have seen them go to a quad launcher and if they are going to stick with the arm launcher perhaps made it longer with a radar/optical package on a similar arm next to it so the vehicle could remain behind cover with the sensors popping up to search for targets and then to guide missiles to targets.

Why not a turret with two quad launchers and radar/EO package in the middle? It seems constructors decided to build this system without turret and that whole components could be stored inside vehicle. That means that launcher capabilities are depending on autoloader capabilities and maybe dual launcher is maximum, what autoloader could support.

Apparently the Hrizantema isn't being considered for Russian Army service. It's seen as a 1990's tech with limited upgrade potential. Looks like they'll be sticking with the Kornet and (hopefully soon) the Hermes as the LR ATGM system

As I know, Krizantema is ordered by Russian artillery units. Kornet is also 1990 tech and upgrade potential for both missiles are the same. Khrizantema have one + comparing to Kornet and that is radar mode of using and radar could enable far longer range of using than optical mode and missile could also be faster for use with radar. Limitation is more in optical mode with laser guidance. But with newer stabilized EO sight with Chaterine TI, those capabilities could also be improved, so I wouldn't be surprised if Krizanthema use newer faster missiles with longer range.

Apparently the Hrizantema isn't being considered for Russian Army service. It's seen as a 1990's tech with limited upgrade potential. Looks like they'll be sticking with the Kornet and (hopefully soon) the Hermes as the LR ATGM system

Are you sure?

The Russian AF seems to view Krisantema as the replacement for ATAKA... particularly on their helos where radar and laser beam riding guidance are both useful.

AFAIK before the new Kornet EM was revealed it was the Kornet that was the dead duck on a BMP-3 chassis and that Krisantema had been ordered as a replacement for the ATAKA and SHTURM system (mounted on an MTLB chassis).

The new system might have turned heads... especially the light model in the Tigr but I would wait to see the new Krisantema before writing it off.

Why not a turret with two quad launchers and radar/EO package in the middle?

Russian ATGM vehicles... I mean dedicated ATGM vehicles tend to have fully retractable systems so with everything stowed away it looks harmless... a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Putting the optics and sensors on one arm and the missiles on another means you can continue guiding missiles or looking for targets while reloading or simply keeping a lower profile with just the sensors visible.

Regarding Kornet and Krisantema... both were relatively old systems and the potential for upgrade for both is probably slightly in favour of Krisantema as Kornet is also partially mobile at 29-34kgs for each missile. The Krisantema on the other hand is the successor to the ATAKA series and is much heavier... almost 50kgs and is designed for vehicle use.

I would like to see the Kornet used in light vehicles like Tigr-M and also replace wire guided missiles on Russian IFVs like BMP-2 etc, but Krisantema is probably a better helicopter fired missile due to its radar guidance linking it to helicopter use.

Khrizantema have one + comparing to Kornet and that is radar mode of using and radar could enable far longer range of using than optical mode and missile could also be faster for use with radar.

Seem that continue to be very easy to forget two fundamental concepts :

1) Kornet-EM with all its publicized wonderful capabilities and goods is an export model of the same modernized system offered to Russian Army.... and all of us perfectly know what are the huge differences between export and internal versions of weapons in Russian tradition...

2) Even more important Kornet-EM can be employed also by infantry with a remotely controlled classical tripod launcher : that mean the capability by part of an infantry squad,at now without any equal worldwide, to engage from 8/10 km of distance pratically the whole spectrum of battlefield menaces (from MBT UAV or CAS aircraft to IFV or helicopter) executing the entire fire sequence from a concealed position (even not in LOS with the enemy) and let the robotic guidance engage the target UAV, MBT ,enemy infantry squad, bunker, helicopter etc..etc... while changing position ; even toward a fire position of another launcher previously placed to be remotely controlled.

Russian ATGM vehicles... I mean dedicated ATGM vehicles tend to have fully retractable systems so with everything stowed away it looks harmless... a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Putting the optics and sensors on one arm and the missiles on another means you can continue guiding missiles or looking for targets while reloading or simply keeping a lower profile with just the sensors visible.

True and Krizanthema as well as Kornet SP are build by this concept. But in contrast to Konkurs, where 5 missiles are on launcher, Kornet and Krizanthema have autoloaders and autoloader limits the number of missiles on launcher. Of course, after launching the missile launcher goes back in the vehicle to be reloaded, while in that time guidance system guided missile to the target.

Semm that continue to be very easy to forget two fundamental concepts :

1) Kornet-EM with all its publicized wonderful capabilities and goods is an export model of the same modernized system offered to Russian Army.... and all of us perfectly know what are the huge differences between export and internal versions of weapons in Russian tradition...

2) Even more important Kornet-EM can be employed also by infantry with a remotely controlled classical tripod launcher : that mean the capability by part of an infantry squad,without any equal at now worldwide, to engage from 8/10 km of distance pratically the whole spectrum of battlefioeld menaces (from MBT UAV or CAS aircraft to IFV or helicopter) executing the entire fire sequence from a concealed position (even not in LOS with the enemy) and let the robotic guidance engage the target UAV, MBT ,enemy infantry squad, bunker, helicopter etc..etc... while changing position ; even toward a fire position of another launcher previously placed to be remotely controlled.

Kornet is basically portable long range ATGM to replace Konkurs ATGM. They also build Kornet-SP based on BMP-3, which Russian army also received, but most probably in smaller number. Krizanthema is build as SP ATGM to replace Sturm-S. Modernizing larger Krizanthema missile could also give longer range, higher speed and better penetration capabilities. Krizanthema could in its basis engage two targets simultaneously, one in radar and one in optical mode. Advantage of Krizanthema comparing to Kornet is in its radar. RWRs and radar jammers are not so common in tanks, also radar could search and track tanks in any environment.

The new SP Kornet-E based on the GAZ 233036.

http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/559/U8uld.jpg

1) Kornet-EM with all its publicized wonderful capabilities and goods is an export model of the same modernized system offered to Russian Army.... and all of us perfectly know what are the huge differences between export and internal versions of weapons in Russian tradition...

I didn't forget that... but in this case it is negated because the difference in performance between the revealed export performance and the domestic model applies to both systems so the assumed better performing domestic Kornet-EM should not be compared with the export version of the old Krisantema.

2) Even more important Kornet-EM can be employed also by infantry with a remotely controlled classical tripod launcher : that mean the capability by part of an infantry squad,at now without any equal worldwide, to engage from 8/10 km of distance pratically the whole spectrum of battlefield menaces (from MBT UAV or CAS aircraft to IFV or helicopter) executing the entire fire sequence from a concealed position (even not in LOS with the enemy) and let the robotic guidance engage the target UAV, MBT ,enemy infantry squad, bunker, helicopter etc..etc... while changing position ; even toward a fire position of another launcher previously placed to be remotely controlled.

Did not forget that either, but we need to keep in mind that Kornet was barely man portable, and that its primary purpose was to replace all the old wire guided medium to long range missiles.
There are layers of AT systems, as you most probably well know, and they start with the multi purpose unguided cheap RPG out to about 600m or so and include both launchers (RPG-7, RPG-29, RPO-A, RPG-32 etc etc) that are cheap but multipurpose and up till recently unguided.
The next layer was the short range missiles... the AT-4/AT-3 missiles that have been replaced in service by the AT-13 METIS-M1. Then we have the medium/long range systems like AT-5 and AT-6 (Konkurs and SHTURM and ATAKA) which both could have been replaced by the original Kornet, but weren't. The Kornet pretty much replaced the AT-5 while the ATAKA was being replaced by Krisantema. Now the new Kornet-EM has blurred things up a bit because it substantially outperforms the old Krisantema in armour penetration and range, though I do believe the Krisantema has a speed of 420m/s, which is higher than the 300m/s of the Kornet-EM.

The advantage of the Krisantema is complete any conditions operation... including in whiteout and brownouts and heavy rain/snow etc etc.

AFAIK the Krisantema uses command control guidance much like the TOR missiles where the radar tracks the target and the outgoing missile and calculates course corrections and transmits those course corrections to the missile via radar beam.
This means a substantial radar upgrade would allow multiple targets to be engaged with multiple missiles, and it means the missiles themselves are very cheap because they only need a datalink back to the launch radar, they don't need their own radar antenna or seekers or sensors.

I would think that the extra weight of the Krisantema should enable performance to be greatly improved with a better warhead and improved rocket motor and smaller and lighter electronics leading to an equivalent jump in range and penetration comparable to that with the Kornet-EM.

I think the Kornet-EM will replace all the existing ATGMs in Russian units like the AT-5s on BMP-2s, and in BRDMs in anti tank units attached to brigades, but I think Krisantema will be the helicopter "light" ATGM of choice for all helo types and that occasionally Ka-52s and Mi-28s will carry Hermes for heavy targets, but will carry Krisantema more often because it will be carried in packs of 8 instead of 4 with Hermes and for most targets Krisantema will be good enough and much cheaper than Hermes.

If they can get Krisantema to 12-15km range with a radar that can detect and track the smallest UAVs then it will be worth while too.

The new SP Kornet-E based on the GAZ 233036.

It has only one launcher deployed in that photo... the other one is stowed.

btw it is Kornet-EM.

A new variant of Kornet , Kornet-EM was displayed at recent MAKS and Nizhny Tagil

Kornet-EM

A new variant of Kornet , Kornet-EM was displayed at recent MAKS and Nizhny Tagil

Isn't this the missile we have been talking about the last few pages????

GarryB wrote:

A new variant of Kornet , Kornet-EM was displayed at recent MAKS and Nizhny Tagil

Isn't this the missile we have been talking about the last few pages????

Yes

But that link is from OEM and if it has not been posted has very interesting details , If it was posted and discussed then its my bad , sorry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppoa2ZJrGks

Interesting video about Khrizantema and in the last part it show production line with modern CNC machinery to produce parts for Khrizantema ATGM.

Medo, thanks for the video.

I have not seen any picture of the Khrizantema in service with any unit. Looks like it did not enter service yet...and might never be. Any thoughts?

Thanks Medo...

It was my understanding that the Krisantema was in service and production since about 2005 and the "Latest" info we have about the future of Russian ATGMs was that Kornet and Krisantema were getting fire and forget capabilities (we have found out Kornets new secrets but the new features of the Krisantema have not been revealed yet AFAIK), and that there is a new system called Baikal being developed.

This suggests to me that infantry will use METIS-M1, there might be a guided system for shorter range use based on perhaps the RPG-32 or RPG-29 or its replacement, the ground vehicles that don't use tube launched missiles will use Kornet-EM and that the Krisantema will be used by Air Force Helos to replace the ATAKA and suppliment the HERMES.

I rather suspect the guidance choice of the Kornet EM was aimed at numbers, because the missiles will be relatively cheap compared with missiles with terminal seekers like Hermes and possibly Krisantema.

I think that (the domestic version of ) Kornet-EM is to replace the other wire guided ATGMs in Russian service other than the METIS-M1, while the Krisantema is to replace Shturm and Ataka.

I think instead of radar beam riding guidance that the new Krisantema will use SARH guidance with the radar marking the targets for the missiles to home in on.
This will be cheaper than active radar homing missiles so that the Krisantema can be the cheap light missile while the hermes can be the expensive heavy but much more capable missile.
Helicopters will likely have radars sophisticated enough to mark several targets for multiple attacks at once and the systems will automatically keep track of the targets so in effect it will be fire and forget for the operator... while remaining cheap enough to buy in significant numbers.

Actually... thinking more about it, the Kristantema has a tail mounted sensor to detect a laser beam so it can be guided like Kornet and Kornet-EM.
It would actually make sense to generate a pencil radar beam for tail mounted radar sensors to detect and ride down to hit the target, so the missile is a radar beam rider and a laser beam rider.

The advantage is that all the guidance sensors can be in the tail looking back at the launcher rather than looking at the target where they could be distracted or attacked.
Looking directly at the laser or radar beam rather than its reflection off the target means the power of the beams can be much smaller and less obvious to the target.

AFAIK the original Krisantema system tracked the target and the missile and calculated course corrections for the missile and transmitted them to the missile via a data link.

Using radar beam riding like laser beam riding greatly simplifies the guidance and if you have a radar that can direct pencil radar beams at multiple targets then you can guide several missiles with several radar locks and a laser guided missile as well.

Active radar mode for Khrizantema doesn't mean it have ARH radar in its head. It is only ACLOS, where radar track both target and missile and send correcting signals to missile. Krizanthema have only radio signal receiver in its rear end as well as laser receiver ans IR light to work with IR locator in optical mode with laser guidance. Both sensors in missile rear could enable using of both modes for every missile. I only wonder if they could change radar and optical mode when only one missile is launched against target, but I more think that guidance mode is selected prior missile launch and could not be changed, that two missiles could be guided simultaneously against two different targets.

Anyone know, how much could launcher as well as radar and optical sight turn left and right and to what elevation?

As I know Khrizantema is ordered for Russian artillery units and together with battery command vehicle and data link connection with C4ISR it would represent quite dangerous ATGM system. It seems Kornet and Khrizantema are working in different levels and in different units, but could still well supplement each other in battlefield.

Active radar homing would give real fire and forget capability... would be rather useful for attack helo use, but would be more expensive to implement... and there are lots of targets the helo will want to hit with guided missiles that don't have a distinctive enough radar signature to allow targeting... like if you want to put a missile through a particular window in a building 5km away then laser beam riding and optical tracking of the target is needed.

They said fire and forget versions of the Kornet and Krisantema were both being worked on and we have seen the Kornet-EM solution went for cheap and simple while offering most of the advantages of FF, while avoiding its problems (max range and expense per missile).

The Krisantema solution might be just as simple and effective... will be interesting to see what performance improvements they achieve... 15km range? 1.5m armour penetration? ...should be interesting.

I believe I have seen the optical sight and radar turn at least 180 degrees... ie able to look sideways in both directions, but I am not aware of actual figures or elevation figures.

Great Thread , Mindstorm some real excellent post its a learning experience.

The true potential of Beam Riding ( which i used to curse but now i know why it is better than laser targetting )missile with long arm of Kornet-EM is so useful.

I really liked the idea where you can attack the tank by pointing the beam above it and at the last moment you can choose to point at the target or just point your beam at another threatening target all with a very low probability of warning the target by laser beam detectors , while for laser designator you need to constantly lase the target and make sure its lased with high power laser compared to beam rider till the target is hit , no chance of trying to change the target as the last moment and high probability that laser detector will find you.

I think something like keep the laser at safe distance above the target is also not possible becuase the reflective energy from laser would disperse if you are pointing in thin air or just point to something else , am i right ?

The flight speed and rocket burn of the Kornet is known, so a simply timer would allow the launch platform to estimate the the distance to the missile at any specific time during an engagement.
This means that with knowing the range to the target though a laser range finder the launch platform guidance system could calculate flight time to impact and because it is using video processing to auto track the target it will be moving the laser beam to follow the target anyway.
It would take some very basic maths to work out the actual diameter of the laser beam at the range the target is and to redirect the beam at an angle above the target to prevent the laser touching the target and alerting it to the attack.
The added benefit to doing this means that the missile is less likely to fly into a bush or shrub or barbed wire fence between the launcher and the target.

At a specific distance from the target... perhaps 500m the control system could drop the beam onto the part of the tank you want to hit which would give the target less than 2 seconds to react... and as a hidden extra bonus means the missile will likely hit at a relatively steep angle reducing the effectiveness of angled armour as an added bonus.

A target with active protection systems could be attacked with two missiles following the same beam with 0.1 second time delay between the missiles, which should result in 30m between the two missiles as they fly in... far enough apart that the material sent to stop the first wont hit the second as well, but close enough that the defending system will have a very short time to cope.

I think something like keep the laser at safe distance above the target is also not possible becuase the reflective energy from laser would disperse if you are pointing in thin air or just point to something else , am i right ?

With semi active laser homing weapons like Krasnopol, the target needs to be reflective... I remember reading about an attack in the Falklands where an SBS soldier had to lase a large group of Argentine forces landing on a beach. He chose the front guys helmet as a reflector target. Didn't say what happened but I would assume a large aerial bomb landing within 5m would take the shine off that helmet.

With laser beam riders of course the reflectivity of the target is not important.

With the Kornet-EM and its relatively sophisticated guidance it would likely just require the push of a button to select an option to aim the laser off the target till the missile has closed in to a certain distance and the trick of not lasing the target till the missile is close could be a function of the autotracker without the operator doing anything.

With the old system you could probably do it manually if you trusted your own judgement in estimating distance etc.

The point to make clear however is that because the missile seeker is looking directly at the laser source rather than for reflections off the target the laser is orders of magnitude less powerful, and much of the time even pointing the laser directly at a laser sensor 8km away the laser sensor will likely dismiss the laser energy as noise... ie it will think something nearby is being marked with a laser target marker but the energy it is seeing is so low it will think it is just seeing the reflected energy rather than being targeted itself.

If it does set it off then the secret would be to use the laser on every vehicle in the enemy unit and then call in an artillery strike to add to the enemies confusion of now being covered in their own smoke screen.

Thanks Garry ,I have this doubt

When the beam is pointed at the target , how does the missile view the beam ? I mean is the beam like Wide , Medium and at the target its is narrow pencil beam ? Or is this one single pencil beam and the missile fires above the beam ?

How does the operator obtain the range to the target , I would assume the beam is pointing at the target and the reflection from the target from the tripod device is used to calculate the range to the target ?

So in a scenario when the operator has to use the beam just above the target which might just be thin air then how does operator obtain range to target ?

How does Top Attack works for new Kornet-EM , similar to Bill ATGM ?


Finally on the issue of Spike-ER , I think it has one advantage you can use to attack target beyond LOS , using video images obtain from target while the missile is flying ,missile like Kornet-EM is limited to LOS which makes beyond LOS targetting impossible.

When the beam is pointed at the target , how does the missile view the beam ? I mean is the beam like Wide , Medium and at the target its is narrow pencil beam ? Or is this one single pencil beam and the missile fires above the beam ?

How does the operator obtain the range to the target , I would assume the beam is pointing at the target and the reflection from the target from the tripod device is used to calculate the range to the target ?

So in a scenario when the operator has to use the beam just above the target which might just be thin air then how does operator obtain range to target ?

Laser beam riding is similar in SACLOS as wire guidance, where laser beam replace wire. In your FCS you have IR missile locator, which locate position of missile comparing to your cross hair, laser beam just send correcting signals to missile, that it could hit a target.

Maybe Kornet launcher could with its laser measure range to target at time of launching, that it could count time, for missile to fly higher than target. But operator could measure range with simple scale in its optics base on known hight of tanks.

Are you very nautical Austin?

There is an optical system invented by a Brit many many decades ago where lights are reflected off a mirror at the back of an aircraft carrier.

It has three colours... lets say orange, green, and red. The Orange light is angled so it is above the ideal flight path to land a plane on the carrier deck, the green light is reflected at the perfect landing angle and red below that so if you see orange you are too high, green you are on the perfect landing flight profile and if you see red if you don't pull up you will hit the deck hard and crash.

It is the same for Kornet, except the beam has four components or more. Top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right.

In the old Kornet you manually followed the target by turning some handles, but in the new system Kornet-EM it uses a computer to automatically follow a moving target or to stay on a stationary one (if the vehicle you are launching the missile from is moving... like a BMP-2).

The beam is wide all the way... and that is a good thing.

A focussed narrow beam would mean that if the missile strays outside the beam while chasing a fast moving target there would be no way to get the missile back into the beam... remember the auto tracker is following the target... like the first model it does not track the missile.

The missile itself does all the flying... it looks back at the launcher and detects its position within the beam... it can tell how far it is from the centre of the beam by the frequency of the beam it sees and can work out where to fly to get into the centre of the beam. The laser does not transmit course corrections to the missile because it does not track the missile.

How does the operator obtain the range to the target , I would assume the beam is pointing at the target and the reflection from the target from the tripod device is used to calculate the range to the target ?

I would assume it uses a laser range finder.

So in a scenario when the operator has to use the beam just above the target which might just be thin air then how does operator obtain range to target ?

The operator would lase the target to get the range first, or to be sneaky they could simply look for something beside the target to get a range.

The precise range to the target is not critical. Unless it is out of range of the missile the distance to the target is not hugely important except if you want to offset the laser during the engagement. If it is an automatic function of the system then lasing the target or something next to the target that is a similar distance could be used to calculate flight time of the missile to the target and therefore the period of time to offset the beam from the target and of course also the distance to offset the beam during the engagement.

How does Top Attack works for new Kornet-EM , similar to Bill ATGM ?

Kornet-EM has no top attack capability AFAIK.

The offset laser option is to reduce warning time for the target of the attack in progress.

When the beam is dropped back on target the missile will likely hit the target at a steeper angle than if it just followed a direct beam to impact, but the impact angle will still be less than 45 degrees.

BILL2 overflys the target tank with a downward facing HEAT warhead designed to fire from a distance with a magnetic fuse that detects the large metal object that is a tank that aims down at the centre of mass as it flys over head.

Finally on the issue of Spike-ER , I think it has one advantage you can use to attack target beyond LOS , using video images obtain from target while the missile is flying ,missile like Kornet-EM is limited to LOS which makes beyond LOS targetting impossible.

To be effective however you need to actually be sure there is something there before you fire, otherwise you just wasted a missile.

Dragging a fibre optic cable means Spike is so slow an opponent could be armed with shotguns and actually have a good chance of shooting them down as they fly past on their way to targets.

In many ways Spike is comparable to a UAV with a warhead packed into its nose, except most UAVs have much longer endurance.

Kornet doesn't need beyond LOS capability... that is what HERMES is for... and its 20km range and 1.3km/s initial flight speed means it will get there much faster than spike will.

GarryB wrote:Are you very nautical Austin?

What does that phrase mean ?

Kornet-EM has no top attack capability AFAIK.

Opps I thought I read it had and I re-read the OEM website and i got confused with Top Attack capability listed for 3rd gen missile.

So it does not have top attack capability will not be hard to get a bill 2 like capability.

To be effective however you need to actually be sure there is something there before you fire, otherwise you just wasted a missile.

Still it does not take away the fact that it has this capability what you are saying is describing a situation where it can or cannot be used.

Iffact you can use this capability even if the target is at LOS because you might not want your self to be exposed so you just move out of LOS of target and use this capability to attack the target with little to no exposure to the target on your part.