Brazil F-X Project competition:

United States hand over Brazil F/A-18 technology in exchange for a victory in the tender
07.08.2009

U.S. ready to make Brazil an unprecedented offer "on the transfer of technologies for the production of fighter aircraft F/A-18, to enhance their chances for victory in the multi-contract, the military departments of the country. As reported by Agence France-Presse, U.S. Deputy Secretary of State for Arms Control Tocher Ellen (Ellen Tauscher) and head of the Pentagon's procurement and technology Ashton Carter (Ashton Carter) confirmed that the 4-5 August, told the Brazilian side of the proposal.

In Washington, noted that the transfer of production technologies of American fighter has become a part of the final strategy to persuade Brazil to stop the choice on 36 new aircraft manufactured in the USA. As stressed by Ellen Tocher, "technology transfer will be something that we have never done before, and especially because the relationship with Brazil is very valuable ¸ is important to us."

The potential contract, announced by Brazilians in June 2008, estimated at $ 4 billion. Under its terms, the supply of vehicles to begin in 2014. The military will replace outdated planes new Mirage-2000 fighter aircraft of French production. Among the candidates for this role, in addition to F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, discusses French Rafale and Swedish Gripen NG. Previously, it also involved a Russian Su-35, which at the end of 2008 was excluded from the competition.

Recall that the intention to make the Brazilian forward a proposal to increase their chances of winning the tender in early July 2009 also said the Swedish company Saab. The manufacturer reported that in the case of winning the Swedish military aircraft in the competition authorities of Brazil assembling the latest update fighter Gripen NG will be launched in the country. The cost of the aircraft because of this decline by about 20 per cent.

Права на данный материал принадлежат Lenta.ru

Defense Ministry confirms: Lula decides on fighters

Francisco Leal, The Globe

In the final push for the government to announce the winning bidder for the purchase of new fighter aircraft for the Air Force (FAB), the American company Boeing, which offered the F18 Super Hornet is the first time openly criticized the Brazilian government.

Americans are not satisfied with the news that the MoD would only have treated the subject with Dassault, a French company that wants to sell to Brazil the Rafale fighter. And they also want the opportunity to submit a new proposal.

- If you are negotiating with other competitors, do not think that's right - said Mike Coggins, senior manager of business development at Boeing Defense.

(...) The defense ministry said on Friday he would not comment on the criticism of Boeing. The ministry said the decision will now be taken by the president.

http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/noblat/posts/2010/11/20/ministerio-da-defesa-reafirma-lula-decide-sobre-cacas-342345.asp

Why did Su-35 fell out? ... with its range it would be perfect.

Viktor wrote:Why did Su-35 fell out? ... with its range it would be perfect.

Because Lula wanted the West to fight over him. He is allies with France, so it is no suprise for them to win.

As quoted in this article:

"the political, strategic and financial aspects"

The Su-35 has an 100 km inferior range compared to the Rafale, however, the Su-35 is also at least $5m cheaper. The Rafale also has a 1 tonne external capacity advantage and 2 additional pylons compared to the Su-35. The Rafale also climbs 20 mps faster than the Su-35. Asides from that, the Sukhoi has a 1.2 km Service Ceiling and is also faster than the Rafale. The Su-35 also has TVC while the Rafale (as far as I know), doesn't. Both can supercruise.

Stealth wise, estimates I've seen give them parity in RCS at a non specified band.

Electronics wise, they both use PESA main radars, however, an AESA upgrade for the Rafale started this August. Also, he IRST system for the Rafale, (Optronique secteur frontal) has an 100 km range, better than the OLS-35's range by 10 km.


So on that, Politically, Russia could not compete with this, as Brazil has always been a West-hugger. Strategically, Russia could of made it, it's better than the super bug and probably the SAAB fighter too. Financially, Russia could of made it. But as Vlad said, politics were the driving force in this.

Rafale is far stealthier and a better bomb truck than Su-35BM, but it lacks the powerful radar, speed, and TVC of the Super Flanker. It is also far more expensive as Su-35 is only $50 million. Rafale is in the $80-90 million range. Rafale is cheaper to fly and maintain, which Russia always losses on in the long run operation.

Oh come on, modern military deals often have more to do with politics than performance.

A Russian plane would have to be much much better than a French plane to win this competition.

I would also say that Dassault often wins such competitions more because of the quality of their hookers than anything else.

At the end of the day an Su-35 win in this competition would have effected production rates for the Russian AF, so to be brutally honest I don't care that they didn't choose it.

The irony is that Embraer will probably demand the winner buy their aircraft... most modern military deals require investment in the economy of the buyer. Often it is to the tune of 100% of the contract price, which for Sukhoi would mean finding something in Brazil they wanted billions of dollars worth.

Russia wants to improve trade, but not at the expense of its own aircraft industry.

Oh come on, modern military deals often have more to do with politics than performance.

Really it has more to do with the bribe, sometimes it is cash, sometimes it is political.

A Russian plane would have to be much much better than a French plane to win this competition.

Russian industrialists would have to be much better at bribing Lula. They don't like to spend money when the state will just take the profits.

At the end of the day an Su-35 win in this competition would have effected production rates for the Russian AF, so to be brutally honest I don't care that they didn't choose it.

KnAAPO has plenty of idle work since Irkut builds most of the Flankers so I wouldn't worry about that.

I would also say that Dassault often wins such competitions more because of the quality of their hookers than anything else.

I would say Russian companies are more apt to use prostitutes such as the case of the Indian Admiral and Gorshkov. France uses bribes in every recorded case.

The irony is that Embraer will probably demand the winner buy their aircraft... most modern military deals require investment in the economy of the buyer. Often it is to the tune of 100% of the contract price, which for Sukhoi would mean finding something in Brazil they wanted billions of dollars worth.

Most of the time it requires no reciprocation of military sales. What you are speaking of is called industrial offsets. It is required for large deals usually in the range of 50%, smaller deals have lower percentages. Suppliers get around that by outsourcing civilian contracts and writing off more value than it actually is. Nations getting offsets usually get 70% of what they were really promised.

One of the functions of Echelon is to capture information that would be economically, politically, or militarily useful to the united states of america.
There is a monthly meeting where the NSA gets various leading US companies in and briefs them on any information they had collected that might give them an edge.
There are plenty of reports of Boeing using information from Echelon to win contracts.

Sometimes it is just knowing what the other side is prepared to bid. Other times it is evidence of corruption so they know the "price" of the contract.

I have been reliably informed by someone who should know that they have won contracts because they got the right type of woman to the person making the final decisions on a contract.
It was a question of age of the "girl" if you know what I mean.
Very unsavoury stuff.

Really it has more to do with the bribe, sometimes it is cash, sometimes it is political.

I agree that the bribe is more important than some think it is, but politics is also very important too. It would be hard for Brazil to look to western countries for investment when it is buying Russian planes. Brazil would be more likely to make a major purchase of Russian jets than say Australia, but I still didn't really expect them to go for Russian jets.

Brazil DefMin says Russia did not qualify for fighter competition

Brazil's defense minister denied the information about Russia's participation in the tender for the supply of fighters

Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim (Nelson Jobim), said that there was no decision to suspend the procedure of choice for the Brazilian Air Force fighters, and rule out the possibility of Russian participation in this tender.

He said that previously have qualified and are admitted to the company (American Boeing, the Swedish Saab and French Dassault) will continue to dispute the tender to supply fighters to Brazil. According to Jobim, the winner will not be determined now because the moment because of the tragedy (more than 600 people have been victims of natural disasters - floods which struck Brazil in late last week. It is called the worst natural disaster in the country since 1967, n. an interpreter) that occurred in Brazil - wrong.

"Russian does not qualify for the tender at the beginning," - he confirmed.

"We hope that the decision (to buy fighter planes) will be made yet this year. But now is not the right time. Let's just say, Brazil is experiencing an emergency situation: showers, natural disasters here and there. We are busy with other and can not properly assess the proposals for the fighters, "- he continued.

The Minister called "rumors" news that other companies will participate in the tender, and that the Brazilian government had a quarrel with his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy on the agreement, proposed by Brazil and Turkey to solve the problem of Iran, which is sort of like, influenced the decision on the choice of Provider fighters. "There was nothing like that. Much Ado About Nothing, say so. Of course, such rumors are spread lobbyists for companies that do not fall in the number of participants in our bid, considering that they still "have time to jump on the train." But none of this would not happen.

According to him, after selecting the manufacturer of fighter aircraft process of acquisition may take more than a year.

"As soon as the decision, it will take another, at least annually for all sorts of negotiations on technology transfer, compensation, and Mutual of direct and indirect, of the financial obligations that ultimately will determine what will be a bargain", - said Jobim.

Rafael Galdo (Rafael Gulden)

Well that clears that up.

The origins of the current F-X2 programme, which aims to renew the Forga Aerea Brasileira (Brazilian Air Force, FAB) fighter fleet, date back to July 2000 and the launch of the Programs de Fortalecimento de Controle do Espago Aereo Brasileiro (Programme for the Improvement of Brazilian Airspace Control), an evolution of Plan Phoenix that had been established four years earlier...

Brazil F-X2 fighter programme

Interesting read...

Isn't the US the biggest A hole when it comes to deals... France offers incentives to buy French, while the US threatens penalties if you don't buy its stuff... pretty clear choice to me.

I would buy the Rafale and then if the US cut off parts for an inflight refuelling aircraft... I would buy French components instead... never give in to bullies... it only makes them worse.

IronsightSniper wrote:As quoted in this article:

"the political, strategic and financial aspects"

The Su-35 has an 100 km inferior range compared to the Rafale, however, the Su-35 is also at least $5m cheaper. The Rafale also has a 1 tonne external capacity advantage and 2 additional pylons compared to the Su-35. The Rafale also climbs 20 mps faster than the Su-35. Asides from that, the Sukhoi has a 1.2 km Service Ceiling and is also faster than the Rafale. The Su-35 also has TVC while the Rafale (as far as I know), doesn't. Both can supercruise.

Stealth wise, estimates I've seen give them parity in RCS at a non specified band.

Electronics wise, they both use PESA main radars, however, an AESA upgrade for the Rafale started this August. Also, he IRST system for the Rafale, (Optronique secteur frontal) has an 100 km range, better than the OLS-35's range by 10 km.


So on that, Politically, Russia could not compete with this, as Brazil has always been a West-hugger. Strategically, Russia could of made it, it's better than the super bug and probably the SAAB fighter too. Financially, Russia could of made it. But as Vlad said, politics were the driving force in this.

So this summarizes that Russia's most advanced non 5th gen fighter is pretty much inferior?

The only thing that article summarizes is that the author is an idiot.

The Su-35 easily outranges the Rafale.

By the way:
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/var/dicod/storage/images/base-de-medias/images/marine/photos-des-breves/2012mldv092_001_088_jacques_tonard/1988636-1-fre-FR/2012mldv092_001_088_jacques_tonard.jpg

Rafale's "amazing" body finish.

Rafale outranges the Flanker by filling its weapon pylons with external fuel tanks leaving only minimal space and weight for weapons.

Not very stealthy at all.

The only potential advantage it might have had was Meteor, but now there is RVV-BD which outranges that.

Looking at the picture TR-1 posted I would question the ongoing LO capacity of the aircraft and rather suspect if it even existed in the first place that it would deteriorate during real operations to the point of not becoming a factor.

But of course this was never about which aircraft is best... this was about playing the boogey man I have a Russian alternative card to reduce the price of the very very expensive Rafale.

In terms of price you could get 3 Su-35BM aircraft for the price of one Rafale.

Another difference of course is that Brazil has a mature aircraft industry... I am really surprised they haven't thought about an Su-35MKI Brazil. They seem happy with single seat fighters, so basing a new fighter on the Su-35... if not PAK FA makes sense.

But of course this is about picking France over the US... it is a political thing.

I saw a forum in Brazil in which a simulation between Su-35S and NG Gripen was 6-1 for gripen. I found absurd but I want to hear from you guys is superior and leading enconta because all data, electronics, radar capability, integrated systems ...

One big LOOOOL .... Gripen is like a F-16 and has a lot of US/EU parts. 

It fails in every single comparison with the Su-35 - not worth talking at all.

then friend in Brazil they have little knowledge they find the best gripen that sukhoy su-35s, the electronics that is supposedly superior What you think of the electronic su-35s gripen x E / F

Su-35 electronics is basically one generation ahead of Gripen because of implemented solutions from PAK-FA. Also when you compare the radar (which Su-35 has three) and OLS and Jammers etc they are way ahead of anything Gripen can offer. Besides Gripen has lots of US equipment so expect bugs and similar stuff.

Its a child talk, not worth reading but perhaps someone here will have more patience to answer these questions bit by bit ....

but just look at these picture and most of this childish talk becomes futile   

Thank you is that I had seen this picture a while, I know that the su is superior to gripen almost every way he left to show that the Brazilian did not know anything, but if you try to prove They will discuss using evidence Naked nexus)))

In what enviornment did these so called simulations occured in? I agree with victor in the sense the biggest draw back of the Gripen is the massive amount of impprted parts from all over, that can be a nightmare if embargoes were placed. Gripen NG though, is a great multiroll fighter. But question is, how is it in air superiority roll?

What is its radar and optronic detection range? Tracking and scanning?
What are its EW/ECM/ECCM suite?
Ease of use?
Link 16 or equivelent?

Su-35S has a detection range upwards to 400km (it varies as some reports had more). There is a video kicking around of Irbis-E detecting fighter sized target around 300km out and tracked at around 280km, making that bette. Than most, if not all fighterborn aircraft.  Its OLS system IRST can detext max around 100km but I would be safe to say the number is less than that.

One thing I think were the Gripen could be rwal good at is EW and ECM/ECCM cause of its AESA radar, while Irbis-E is hybrid. But it is no secret that the Irbis-E is currently the worlds most powerful fighter radar in raw power. But of course, there are other radars more advanced. I would say that Su-35S would perform better in A-A engagement over Gripen but Gripen may fair better in EW and ground attack.

Simulations need to be taken with a grain of salt. US simulatioms show flawless victory for F-22 in all tests but during Red Flag exercises, other jets, including Su-30 and Rafale have given it a run for uts money. Also take note that a lot of these "simulations" prop up after the deal is through. Kind of like trying to not only convince themselves, but their population that their purchase was not a mistake. But dont worry, Gripen was not a mistake purchase IMO.  SAAB had offered a better deal. Tech transfer, local production/manufacturing, training, spares, ect. It really was a good deal.

Edit: please excuse poor spelling and grammar as I am not very good at using my cell for message boards.

Su-35sGeneral characteristics

Crew: 1 Length: 21.9 m (72.9 ft) Wingspan: 15.3 m (50.2 feet, with pods on the wingtips) Height: 5.90 m (19.4 ft) Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft ²) Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,570 pounds) loaded weight: 25,300 kg (56,660 pounds) Max takeoff weight: 34,500 kg (76,060 pounds) Powerplant: 2 × Saturn 117S with TVC nozzle turbofan Dry thrust: 8,800 kgf (86.3 kN, 19,400 lbf) each Thrust with afterburner: 14,500 kgf (142 kN, 31,900 lbf) each Fuel capacity: 14,350 liters (3,790 gallons) USA Expertise

Maximum speed: Mach 2.25 (2390 km / h and 1.490 mph) at altitude Range: High altitude: 3,600 km (1,940 nautical miles) Ground level: 1,580 km (850 nautical miles) Ferry range: 4,500 km (2,430 nautical miles ) with 2 external fuel tanks Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,100 ft) Rate of climb:> 280 m / s (> 55,100 ft / min) Wing loading: 408 kg / m² (84.9 lb / ft ²) Thrust / weight: 1.13 Armament

Guns: 1 × 30 mm GSH-30 internal cannon with 150 rounds Hardpoints: 14 hardpoints, consting 2 wingtip rails, and 12 wing and fuselage stations with a capacity of 8000 kg (17,630 pounds) of munitions and supplies to perform combinations of: Rockets: S-25L laser-guided rocket S-25 unguided rockets B-8 unguided S-8 rocket pods B-13 S-13 unguided rocket pods Missiles: Vympel R-27R/ER/T / ET Vympel R-77 - R-77M, R-77T proposed Vympel R-73E / F, and R-74M Kh-29 T / L Kh-31P / A Kh-59 Bombs ME: FAB-250 250kg (550 pounds) of non-guided bombs FAB-500 500 kg (1,100 lb) of bombs KAB-500L non-guided laser-guided bomb KAB-1500 laser-guided bomb Others: buddy refueling pod Avionics

Irbis-E passive phased array radar jamming pod KNIRTI SAP 14 (central pylon) [41]

SAP 518 KNIRTI playing pod (one from each of the two wing tips) [41]

OLS-35 infrared search and track system Khibiny-M electronic warfare suite

Depend in what blogs/forums you go there are good and bad Brazilian blogs... if you go to "area militar" everything is Russian is a crap and everything is from west specially American is nunber one.