Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+96
caveat emptor
diabetus
andalusia
walle83
Shaun901901
Broski
x_54_u43
TMA1
mnztr
ALAMO
Mir
Russian_Patriot_
mavaff
The_Observer
lancelot
lyle6
ahmedfire
limb
Big_Gazza
marcellogo
Mindstorm
kvs
calripson
Hole
PhSt
AJ-47
bolshevik345
Walther von Oldenburg
The-thing-next-door
miketheterrible
dino00
JohninMK
LMFS
General
KomissarBojanchev
Peŕrier
kopyo-21
wilhelm
Interlinked
BM-21
Book.
Cheetah
0nillie0
SeigSoloyvov
franco
Isos
MMBR
KiloGolf
Benya
airstrike
galicije83
VladimirSahin
DerWolf
nemrod
d_taddei2
PapaDragon
hoom
higurashihougi
KoTeMoRe
sepheronx
Mike E
Kimppis
cracker
Kyo
akd
runaway
Morpheus Eberhardt
zino
Pugnax
xeno
Vann7
Werewolf
magnumcromagnon
Asf
Zivo
collegeboy16
George1
volna
zg18
flamming_python
TR1
Regular
a89
Vympel
AlfaT8
Stealthflanker
Dima
TheArmenian
medo
Cyberspec
BTRfan
Viktor
IronsightSniper
Austin
GarryB
Admin
100 posters

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39169
    Points : 39667
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:04 pm

    It is also about numbers.

    With no armour anything can hurt you... fragments, bullets etc, but at the other end there is no level of armour that will protect you from anything and once you invent your armour your enemy is going to start to find ways to defeat it so even if you are protected you are likely only safe for a short period of time before they work on a solution.

    The BTR series of vehicles were made fun of because of their light armour, but even their light armour was better than riding in the back of 2 ton trucks... it comes down to value for money.

    They could have gone with tank level protection but that would be too expensive so most would end up walking which means you lose mobility which was a serious problem for the Germans in WWII. It might look like the Germans were a fully mechanised force but the tank forces were mechanised their infantry was not and nor was most of their artillery... which is why they had Stukas... the only artillery they had that could keep up with their tanks.

    The point is that a BTR-60 protected them from small arms fire coming from a distance, it made them very mobile and it had a turret with machine guns the equivalent of a light cannon. On a scale it didn't protect from a whole lot but it was cheap enough for everyone they couldn't put in a BMP to have one so they were actually fully mechanised much faster than the west was. (in significant sized armies obviously.... a small force like the New Zealand Army could be all mechanised easily because there are only 5,000 soldiers...).

    Things like ERA and APS were solutions to the problems of defeating rather heavy weapons without having to resort to super heavy armour, and they were clever solutions that could be applied fairly easily and were effective against the vast majority of weapons tanks will face... RPGs and ATGMs... but not so good for IEDs. But there are other things for those...

    The point is that the advantage of the BTR was not its armour, but the other things it brought.... mobility and fire power and speed, with more protection than they would get from a truck, but at a price rather similar to that of a truck so you could afford to replace the troop transport role of the truck with something that was amphibious and armoured and armed. It was no MRAP but photos of them with missing wheels in Afghanistan show they can take a hit and keep moving...

    In the case of these vehicles even if it just means the enemy see the vehicle and have to take some time to work out where a weak spot might be to launch an attack might mean they don't end up with time for a shot, or they pick a bad place to shoot at in panic.
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18342
    Points : 18839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  George1 Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:14 pm

    The tactics of conducting oncoming combat and through attacks were improved by the crews of the T-72B3 tanks of the Western Military District during an exercise at the Golovenki training ground near Moscow.


    GarryB and Hole like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 3222
    Points : 3224
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  Mir Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:59 pm

    The video shows T-80's. Still nice though Smile

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    walle83


    Posts : 968
    Points : 976
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  walle83 Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:18 pm



    Large exercise with land and air power. T-72 with BMP-2 can be seen from the middle of the clip.

    GarryB likes this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18342
    Points : 18839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  George1 Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:49 pm

    GarryB, Hole and Mir like this post

    avatar
    andalusia


    Posts : 729
    Points : 791
    Join date : 2013-10-01

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  andalusia Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:29 am

    I see that Serbian has a variant tank based on the T 72; what do you guys think of it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84AS

    Can it stand up to any western tanks and why doesn't Serbian try to export it?
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2720
    Points : 2718
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  lancelot Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:02 am

    You should find more information somewhere on this forum. But Yugoslavia had a T-72 tank license. They used this to make the M-84 tank. However the production of components was spread all over Yugoslavia. After Yugoslavia collapsed the production found itself in separate countries. Which do not have the best relations to put it mildly. So any such production by Serbia would likely need to use a lot of imported Russian components.
    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2470
    Points : 2461
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:54 am

    George1 likes this post

    sepheronx, The-thing-next-door, limb and Broski dislike this post

    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2470
    Points : 2461
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  AlfaT8 Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:05 pm

    Big_Gazza, zardof and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:42 am

    Any future variant must receive an improved transmission with a good reverse speed and CITV to become much more survivable.
    marcellogo
    marcellogo


    Posts : 641
    Points : 647
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 55
    Location : Italy

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  marcellogo Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:16 pm

    diabetus wrote:Any future variant must receive an improved transmission with a good reverse speed and CITV to become much more survivable.

    They should have it but there will be not any future variant of T-72, production is definitively switched on T-90 and applying such modification on a legacy chassis would cost more than what will is required into upgrading it to B3M standard.

    Hole likes this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:14 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    diabetus wrote:Any future variant must receive an improved transmission with a good reverse speed and CITV to become much more survivable.

    They should have it but there will be not any future variant of T-72, production is definitively switched on T-90 and applying such modification on a legacy chassis would cost more than what will is required into upgrading it to B3M standard.

    I was referring to any future improvement to the B3 upgrade.
    caveat emptor
    caveat emptor


    Posts : 1778
    Points : 1778
    Join date : 2022-02-02
    Location : Murrica

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  caveat emptor Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:55 pm

    Refinement of T-72B3M tanks at Uralvagonzavod.

    External changes T-72B3M "sample 2022":
    1 - Added dynamic protection to the fenders in the area of ​​the sloths like the T-90M.
    2 - Added dynamic protection on the gun mask.
    3 - Added dynamic protection to the tower.
    4 - Unknown sensors.
    5 - The mechanism for opening the armored curtains of the thermal imaging sight.

    @milinfolive

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Img_2066
    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Img_2067

    franco, flamming_python, Big_Gazza, zepia, LMFS, Hole, lancelot and Broski like this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:58 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:Refinement of T-72B3M tanks at Uralvagonzavod.

    External changes T-72B3M "sample 2022":
    1 - Added dynamic protection to the fenders in the area of ​​the sloths like the T-90M.
    2 - Added dynamic protection on the gun mask.
    3 - Added dynamic protection to the tower.
    4 - Unknown sensors.
    5 - The mechanism for opening the armored curtains of the thermal imaging sight.

    @milinfolive

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Img_2066
    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Img_2067

    Totally insufficient upgrade. It should receive CITV and an updated transmission with more reverse gears more than anything else.

    limb likes this post

    caveat emptor
    caveat emptor


    Posts : 1778
    Points : 1778
    Join date : 2022-02-02
    Location : Murrica

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  caveat emptor Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:16 pm

    diabetus wrote:

    Totally insufficient upgrade. It should receive CITV and an updated transmission with more reverse gears more than anything else.

    This is just an ad hoc upgrade to increase protection. If they have to change transmission with everything that goes with it, better to make completely new tanks.

    flamming_python and Big_Gazza like this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:23 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    diabetus wrote:

    Totally insufficient upgrade. It should receive CITV and an updated transmission with more reverse gears more than anything else.

    This is just an ad hoc upgrade to increase protection. If they have to change transmission with everything that goes with it, better to make completely new tanks.

    Wouldn't be a huge deal if the t-90M could get the same one.
    avatar
    limb


    Posts : 1550
    Points : 1576
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  limb Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:06 am

    If its about improving protection, why not add relikt and applique armor under it?

    TMA1 likes this post

    galicije83
    galicije83


    Posts : 202
    Points : 204
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Age : 44
    Location : Serbia

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  galicije83 Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:09 am

    They need active protection systems like Arena M, or Drozd 2 or Afganit...ERA this is enough for any threat against apfsd fired from tanks. They just need to put ERA blocks batter to protect more of the lover part of the turret. We have tanks destroyed by another tank with shots missed ERA and go under neet them...

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:09 pm

    Can't help by restate that the t-72B3 would be incredibly more capable/survivable if it had 1. Modern transmission 2. CITV 3. Battle Management system
    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2209
    Points : 2203
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:45 pm

    If the T-72B3 had all the bells and whistles added to it they probably wouldn't afford as much as they did.

    And they would have to draw deeper into the obsolete legacy Soviet T-80/72/64 stocks, and people would still be complaining.

    GarryB, Hole and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:30 pm

    lyle6 wrote:If the T-72B3 had all the bells and whistles added to it they probably wouldn't afford as much as they did.

    And they would have to draw deeper into the obsolete legacy Soviet T-80/72/64 stocks, and people would still be complaining.

    A modern transmission isn't a super expensive addition.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39169
    Points : 39667
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:08 am

    It is if it turns out to be unreliable and gets soldiers killed.
    galicije83
    galicije83


    Posts : 202
    Points : 204
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Age : 44
    Location : Serbia

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  galicije83 Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:03 pm

    diabetus wrote:

    A modern transmission isn't a super expensive addition.

    Well you can put just modern transmission on engine compartment.. You need to change it, and that cost most time, you do not have it right now....

    GarryB and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    diabetus


    Posts : 402
    Points : 403
    Join date : 2014-04-20

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  diabetus Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:06 pm

    galicije83 wrote:
    diabetus wrote:

    A modern transmission isn't a super expensive addition.

    Well you can put just modern transmission on engine compartment.. You need to change it, and that cost most time, you do not have it right now....

    Sure you can, other t-72 operators managed to figure it out years ago. If not, great, you'll keep losing them when they turn around to escape artillery and are then hit in weak armor.
    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2209
    Points : 2203
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  lyle6 Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:07 am

    diabetus wrote:
    Sure you can, other t-72 operators managed to figure it out years ago. If not, great, you'll keep losing them when they turn around to escape artillery and are then hit in weak armor.
    Not only is this not true at all - the armor on the back of the T-72 is 80 mm thick steel plate; no fragmentation is going to pierce that.

    But you're supposing an edge case situation which by definition rarely happens at all. The Russians when going on an offensive, make it a point to assemble at least a 3:1 advantage in artillery, closer to 10:1 in practice given the need to compensate their small infantry complement with firepower. That way there is plenty enough guns to smother defenses and more importantly silence enemy guns at the same time.

    Now that, is how you solve the problem, not by giving the tanks a couple seconds of head-start - like what happens to everyone else they left behind lol, do they just die?

    GarryB and galicije83 like this post


    Sponsored content


    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 32 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun May 19, 2024 6:12 pm