Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

Falcon costing only 50 Mill. Sure. Like the milk powder from Europe in western african countries costing less then the fresh milk produced there because the EU is subsidizing european milk 3 or 4 times along the production line.

GarryB wrote:So you recommend defunding the Russian space programme...

And when did I say that?

Scorpius suggested Serbia should start paying money for Russian space program, not me:

Scorpius wrote:...perhaps you should think about what contribution Serbia can make to the budget of the Russian program...

I simply pointed out that it would be a waste of money while Rogozin is in the equation

Money doesn't grow on trees, especially in non-petroleum economies  

GarryB wrote:... but Rogozin is the moron?

Correct

GarryB wrote:...Did you certify him yourself? Or do you have evidence a professional has certified him insane?

Again, when did I say he was insane?

He is very sane and is doing very good for himself, easy living

What I did say is that he is a moron, complete and total retarded moron  

GarryB wrote:Like calling the head of their space programme a flat earther...

I didn't, he proudly outed himself years ago

GarryB wrote:If you are going to be using Musk as the example of what Russia needs to be...

Once more, I did not say this

It was our boots-on-the-ground who said it:

Scorpius wrote:...I am already pretty sure that the decision will depend on whether the Starship orbital flight will be successful. If this concept proves its viability, the Russian space program will face serious changes.

I was simply commenting on this

GarryB wrote:5 years of begging for seats on Russian rockets to get to and from the ISS...

Begging?

They waived their little bundle of loose change and Russians came running (yet again)

That's not begging

GarryB wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Space program was sacrificed in favor national security, unfortunate but true

If that were the case I would be fine with that...

I am also fine with prioritizing national security but they didn't have to torch their space program to do it

They could have appointed him as chief supervisor of tourism development in Norilsk or some other BS to kee him away and give space program to someone who is not abject retard

Like other boots-on-the-ground confirmed:

flamming_python wrote:...Since the 90s his role has been to act as a spoiler for the elite, heading faux-nationalist political parties to steal votes from real ones

It's how the guy made his career

Unfortunately such credentials don't translate into the reserved, professional and diplomatic role of being the head of a national space agency, any more than Zhirinovsky's would

Straight from the motherland  

kvs wrote:...If PD needs to spew his hater bile somewhere...

Until the day Rogozin creates an account on this forum and becomes a member (with all protection from personal insults that status entails but which you seem to get a free pass on) I should be free to state my opinion of him just as much as you can about Blacks, Asians, Jews, homosexuals and whoever else you have beef with on any particular day

kvs -> actually as first provided constructive critics of Roscosmos.



Flaming Python -> do you really think Rogozin could have be appointed without VVP approval?


To me Rogozin is far from being a perfect boss. Can the job be done better? I believe it can. Yet he is moving forward. But who should do it? Rogozin management facts below:



1. Over the past two years, since May 2018, t[] labor productivity increased by 16%. 2018
https://tass.ru/ekonomika/10015239


2. [i]Center them. M.V. Khrunicheva, since 2018, has reduced the debt burden by 70 billion rubles, 2020
https://tass.ru/ekonomika/10267427


3. was a success and became the 59th consecutive accident-free space launch for Russia , this has not happened in the modern history of the country, it follows from the calculations of RIA Novosti ...
https://ria.ru/20210529/puski-1734688499.html

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
Flaming Python -> do you really think Rogozin could have be appointed without VVP approval?      
[/i]

Of course it was with VVP's approval. And now his continued approval. Did I ever say it wasn't?

And did I ever, in contrast to some folks here, portray VVP as a 4-dimensional grandmaster who has thought 100 steps ahead of everyone else and can do no wrong?
Of course not. VVP fks up all the time.
Although his screw-ups are more often than not a case of him not being able to be at every place to micromanage at the same time and get absolutely everything right - no-one can - yet are still classed as his responsibility because he has chosen to keep all this executive power for himself in the first instance, and appoint positions based on reward for loyalty over that of competence some of the time.
There's no-one else other than VVP who can give a pep-talk to Rogozin and VVP has 1000 other priorities before that I'm sure.

The intersection of politics into the discussion of government funded space programs cannot be helped but it seems it touches too near to certain people's own personal political beliefs (which stinks of center left horseshit with a fixation against populist sentiments. Lame)

It is getting tedious.

GarryB wrote:

Does Rogozin have you on his payroll Garry?

So I am bought and paid for... shall I start banning some people and just wait for my cheque to arrive?

I am not anti Rogozin so I am with the terrorists... are you really that dumb?

Is that honestly what you took from my post?

Well you tell me. You're the one who switched on the scary red text when the heat on Rogozin was getting too much

Rogozin is a richer man than either you or me Garry, he'll survive, even if he takes some flak on an internet forum.

And the same goes for all Russian government ministers and heads of state corporations. Criticism of their performance comes with the high-profile positions they've agreed to take up.

In the case of Rogozin, I don't deny there might be more to him than meets the eye. Zhirinovsky behind the scenes is a very intelligent fellow, his theatrics are simply part of his niche in Russian politics. Similarly Rogozin might be a very competent manager behind the scenes. However his theatrics are causing harm in my eyes to the Russian space agency. He needs to learn the meaning of dignity.

thegopnik wrote:...In order for Roscosmos to save face or atleast be better I say...

In order to do that they just need to do ANYTHING

Literally that and nothing else, just do one simple thing without completely fucking up in the process

Anything

Last time they tried to do anything other than the most simple of things they almost caused Kessler Syndrome

thegopnik wrote:...
https://tass.ru/kosmos/9161927

Means of delivering people to Mars will appear in Russia in 8-10 years...

And in 8-10 years it will still be 8-10 years

Big_Gazza wrote:Expert: tests of the engine for a reusable rocket will begin in 2023

The methane engine for the Amur-LNG reusable space rocket is scheduled to be tested in 2023, said Vladimir Rachuk, general designer of an oxygen-hydrogen engine for the Soviet super-heavy rocket Energia, general director and general designer of the Chemical Automation Design Bureau (1993-2015).

KB Chemical Automatics has a rich history of creating methane-fueled rocket engines. The first tests were carried out by the enterprise in the 1990s. In 2007, the RD-0146 oxygen-hydrogen engine was successfully launched on methane, and in 2014 a methane demonstrator engine for the Vega rocket was developed for the Italian company Avio.

"Since 2016, the Chemical Automation Design Bureau under a contract with the state corporation" Roscosmos "has been developing the RD-0177 / RD-0169 engine with a thrust of 100 tons for the Amur-LNG launch vehicle. It is planned to start firing tests of the engine in mid-2023, "Rachuk's letter to RIA Novosti says.

source

The RD-0169 (100T thrust) to be used on the Amur-LNG launcher (10.5T to LEO in reuseable mode) will apparently be the engines used on the 2nd stage of the proposed Methalox SHLV.  I'd expect that the RD-182 first stage engines (250T) will be up-scaled RD-0169?

The important takeaway here is of course that Russia is developing methalox engines, regardless of claims to the contrary.

It is not just developing them, it had them dating back to the 80s and 90s. They are refining them.

How is a methalox reusable "competitive". This claim is made up and down without a single number being provide for the alleged cost
savings relative to non-reusable RP-1 systems.

People clearly forget that rocket launches involves a substantial risk of failure. And for the degenerate, PD, that includes your
precious yanquis and the idol of your sexual desires, Elon Musk.

So jumping on the gimmick bandwagon to be competitive is certifiable. Having a higher failure rate all by itself nullifies all the
non-specified cost savings.

People posting here Musk's claims about his launch costs without a single bit of validation are basically posting NATzO propaganda
spam. Musk's claims about launch costs have been shown before to be utter BS.

As I posted already, Space-X is a baiting operation in addition to its ideological affirmation objective to "prove" to the world that
only showboating con-men like Elon Musk can "do it right". Do what "right"?

thegopnik wrote:Wait WTF is going on in this thread anymore and I am not talking about the shitposting that was done earlier that made me laugh like an idiot. We go from delayed design to switch to methane, Rogozin oh no were are still going with the same kerosene design and now they are developing a super heavy methane rocket and we know that cant be Amur because its payload is not good enough to be classified as super heavy. We go from denial,approval by Rogozin that its the same, to now back to denial that its methane again? If Starship launches payloads to orbit before this rocket is developed which does seem to be the case soon and those engines re-land to be re-used again than Roscosmos will give all the more reason to make it look like they are stroking Musks cock to go further praise Space X again for getting a heavy methane re-usable rocket before Roscosmos did out to the general audeince making it look  like Russia is behind the U.S. in rocket technology.

Vann or ultimatewarrior did not take over my account, I am still me for this recent negativity FYI. I hate to say it but Roscsomos really is neck to neck with Space X. In order for Roscosmos to save face or atleast be better I say 1. Get the methane  super heavy rocket(is it even re-usable?) developed to launch payloads before the Starship launches payloads. 2. Use methane 1st stage(dont know if re-usable) with 2nd stages using closed circuit kerosene engines as mentioned before on page 3 Mindstorms post with the use of parachutes that even if Starship gets payloads to orbits before this rocket it will still be a far more advanced design.

In order to effectively crush the pride of U.S. space companies you are to demonstrate that you can make cheaper and better rockets with the same fuel to mentally devestate those U.S. company fans that there current method to Mars can be easily done by Roscosmos but they choose not to do it. Demonstrating closed circuit engines, parachutes and detonation engines are bonuses.

Also I hope this is still true.

https://tass.com/science/1177101

The late 2030s are the most probable time for a crewed spacecraft’s flight to Mars, Executive Director of Russia’s State Space Corporation Roscosmos for Manned Space Programs Sergei Krikalyov said on Friday.

"If this [a crewed flight] takes place in the 2030s, then this will be the second half of the 2030s. Most probably, this will take place in the late 2030s," the Roscosmos official said in an interview with Mir-24 TV channel.

https://tass.ru/kosmos/9161927

Means of delivering people to Mars will appear in Russia in 8-10 years. This was stated by Roscosmos Director General Dmitry Rogozin in Yuri Kostin's program "Personal Connections", which is broadcast on YouTube and on the Mir TV channel.

"Technical means that will allow us to provide a gravitational maneuver around the moon, reach Mars and even ensure the landing of the ship on Mars, we will have within 8-10 years," Said Rogozin, answering the relevant question.

According to the head of Roscosmos, it will be very expensive. "If the country is ready to finance this program and if the nation says that it is necessary, Roscosmos specialists will provide this program, I guarantee you," he stressed.

Its a blog but I cant find an official source for it, if it is true If given the choice I would dump ROSS and the chinese cooperation lunar bases over this.

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/138602/

In July 2020, employees of the Keldysh Center proposed to launch a Martian complex. The expedition is planned to be carried out in 2030-2033 Its essence is to deliver a person to the surface of Mars during the period of the closest convergence of the two planets.

This complex will consist of 4 nuclear engines, tanks with liquid hydrogen, a warehouse, a ship for returning to earth "Eagle", take-off and landing and residential complexes. To launch it, it will take about 9 launches of heavy and super-heavy missiles. The complex will use a nuclear power plant (NPS), which has a capacity of 200 kW, a mass of 14 tons and emitters of 400 square meters. The estimated cost of such an installation is 8 billion rubles. According to experts, the implementation of the entire project will need at least 450 billion rubles.

If this is done no more Musk worship.

Why is roscosmos copying Methane muskian bullshitery instead of putting baikal winged reusable modules in service ASAP

Musk is essentially a representative of the US space industry

That's his main value, all the contracts he has been given by the US government and its taxpayers, and all the initiatives he's leading

It's not about being awed by him to the extent that you would take part in a twitter tea party over it. At least, one would hope.

You need to take into consideration a few things first.

US sanctions - Even if Elon Musk didn't exist and neither did space x, Roscosmos would lose contracts to others anyway. Many companies are strong armed or bribed. If not space x, it would be someone else.

Prices - as seen by what KVS once posted, some of the costs are subsidized. This isn't a surprise cause such industry only survives off of subsidies. Space X received billions in subsidies just to start. That isn't including tech transfer from NASA to space X.

Roscosmos is entirely state ran enterprise. It's survival is state orders. Overall though, the commercial launches gives extra revenue that benefits the company as a whole but otherwise, most of the demand is the needs of the country. Because of this, it isn't obliged to shareholders. They do what is necessary.

They did learn that investing in re-usable equipment may be beneficial, if it works. As it saves some money. But it doesn't work out all the time.

The question is, who are the state's using space X? Lots of customers are domestic. Others are countries like Japan and South Korea - not exactly Russian friends.

limb wrote:Why is roscosmos copying Methane muskian bullshitery instead of putting baikal winged reusable modules in service ASAP

They aren't.  The advantages of methane have been known for a long time, but it comes at a cost and doesn't really add value unless the intent is to recover and re-use.  Despite SpaceX self-promotional bullshittery, the advantages of reuse are not clear cut for general spaceflight as the refurbishment costs are very high to return a used vehicle to reliable flight status (and SpaceX doesn't release its true refurb costs - Musks claims are simply lies as there is no obligation on his part to tell the truth). Keep in kind that SpaceX commercial success has nothing to do with any innate superiority in their tech or operating philosophies but comes down to hidden government subsidies and a concerted geopolitical campaign to undermine Russian and Chinese launch services for geopolitical purposes.  The Russians could build the best and cheapest launch system in the multiverse, but Murkan elites and their Eurotrash minions would still propagandize endlessly to smear and undermine them.

The Russian academy of sciences are correct in that re-use makes the most sense for SHLVs where the cost of the vehicle is very high, launch cadences will be very low, and the usual scales of mass production won't be effective at bring down unit cost.  Recovery of a SHLV modules makes sense in such a scenario, so methane is attractive.

Winged recovery is a real possibility (despite murkan garbage about it not being "scalable'), but you need to to run before you can fly. Regardless of whether we are talking kerolox Angara or Methalox Amur/SHLV the way forward is to develop the basic launchers and infrastructure and then progressively adapt the reusability upgrades.  Angara can start with Zenit/Buran style parachutes and horizontal retrorocket-assisted landings (as planned in the 80s)  or fly-back vehicles with UAV tech and runway landing as per Baikal.  Amur can do the same, as well as the vertical landing concept due to their use of multiple small engines like Falcon.

Build the new technology rockets and get them operating.  Then introduce re-useability options.

Regarding the schedule, we need to recognise that there is zero need for urgency.  Doing it just to "keep up" with Muskian self-promotional gimmickry is just stupid.  Doing just to satisfy the personal desires of armchair space enthusiasts is even more stupid.  Russias current launcher stable is sufficient to meet national commercial and security needs, and if they can pick up foreign contracts for launch services then all the better.  Heck, if Roskosmos can't "compete" then how the heck are they launching Oneweb for a UK company?  Where does the urgency come from?  There is a reason why Angara has taken a long time to come to fruition - its because Russia already has adequate launch capabilities and it is in no pressing need for new technology launchers. They can budget accordingly and keep costs down while they work efficiently and not blow a fortune of the publics cash.

I have no doubt that Russia watches musks obsession with his hilariously named "Starship" with some amusement.  Its a nonsense concept, both in its aims and its execution. Regardless of the corporate propaganda and MSM fluffery, this silo isn't lying to the Moon.  Not now, or ever. Musk will be hard pressed to get these things into orbit and back safely, or land his BFG ( ) in one piece.

FFS people.  Saturn V had a hydrolox 2nd and 3rd stage, yet the best it could achieve was to return a depleted 3-man command and service module back to Earth (the 2-man landing vehicle had to dumped to save weight) before dumping the service module and landing just the CM. Does any adult in the fucking room really think he is going to fly a "Starship" to the moon, land safely, take off, return to earth, then land safely, refuel, reload PAX and luggage, and rinse/repeat????  If you do then I have some lovely beachside residences in Kazakhstan to sell...

Final point - Russia is serious about a nuclear-powered interplanetary vehicle (Zeus) and a 1st flight in they 2030 time-frame once Angara A-5V and the Vostochny launch pad is up and running.  this folks is the real fucking deal, not musks self-promotional nonsense (designed to secure Pentagon funding for sub-orbital transports for military applications).  SpaceX (or NASA) isn't even considering nuclear propulsion as the US simply doesn't have the tech given that it abandoned any serious reactor development back in the 70s and its experts are all long since retired and moved to Florida (or the cemeteries).  Zeus will fly on an A-5V which is now a full-blown active program given the commitment of funds to development of the KVTK hydrolox u/s. Thats a damn sight more important than Musks flying silo bullshit, or flying a Tesla 3 to Mars on his twice-flown F9H ( ), or his recent PR circle-jerk 'Inspiration-4" with a bunch of well-heeled rich folk going up for 4 days without accomplishing anything even remotely useful (no experiments performed, no supplies delivered to those who need them, no practical achievements of any kind).

To all those hyper-ventilating teenagers out there - pls cease your emotionally-charged cry fests.  Despite the near-institutional hatred some have for Roskosmos and Rogozin the Black,  I think the Russians know exactly what they are doing. They are watching, evaluating, checking their numbers, making up their own minds, then committing their resources in the most sensible way to maximise their long term gains. China is doing the same, 'cept they have heaps more cash available. Slow and steady wins the "race", even if there is no actual race given there is no actual prize.

thegopnik wrote:Space X is getting more launches sold than Roscosmos.

Yup.  Vann7 has returned.  He has thegopnik tied up in the boot of his pickup while he co-opts his account.  

But seriously dude, why the backflip?  Your Quora postings were on the mark when you sniffed out Musks flim-flammery, but now you've spun 180 degrees and are choosing to believe the self-promoting lies he tells?

Coming back to the body... er, launch count. Are test excludced? Because half of SpaceX launches have been "tests" (= fireworks), most of the rest is either for the american military or unneccessary BS.

This private companies (= Oligarchs) repeated the same stuff the russian space program and NASA did 50 or more years ago, building a rocket and capsule and bring some guys into space. The only difference is that the guys that go into space on their "private" rockets have big wallets.

GarryB wrote:The Space X section is not relevant to the section this post was posted too....

And yet SpaceX is the first thing fanboys pull when anyone criticizes their Retard Messiah

Regular reminder: Other people's​fuckups are no excuse for your own

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:I seem to recall you bitched about him saying such things and now you bitch because he stopped?...

Again missing the point: He never should have said it to begin with because everyone and their grandma knew it's BS

He is spinning down the toilet but instead of going away quietly he makes every effort to smear shit all over Russia on his way down

I am continually amazed by your dedication to carry the water for this braindead moron at all cost and under all circumstances

****, man, these American morons were going to impose sanctions against a company that creates rockets for flights to the ISS.

It's not even so much for you as for the other participants. It's time to recall the specific words of Rogozin.

We will respond to statements with statements, and to actions with actions. Therefore... They say "Don't touch the ISS and these programs" - OK, but then let's do this: if they want to strike a blow to the economic potential of the Russian rocket industry, then let them deliver their astronauts to the ISS using a trampoline.

After these words of Rogozin, the question of the introduction of these sanctions was postponed.

Nothing beats context for quotes. PD has been bleating his "trampoline" man drivel like a retarded sheep for years.
Rogozin could have been less polite and told the yanqui self-declared ubermenschen to light a match to their asses
to get to the ISS. Then PD would have been bleating "assfire" man for years.

Scorpius wrote:...

Were you asleep for past half a decade?

Russia is clogged with sanctions, every single segment of Russian aerospace industry is under sanctions except specific parts that benefit USA (which will also be sanctioned as soon as it's convenient for USA)

Rogozin is sanctioned as well alongside everyone else above certain pay grade in Roskosmos

And most importantly Americans are not using trampoline for anything but have developed several new systems all more efficient than Soviet leftovers that Russia still uses and is unable to move away from

Only thing Trampoline Man accomplished was to out himself as retard for entire world to see and to make Russia look like nation of morons for tolerating his braindead bullshit