marcellogo

magnumcromagnon

JohninMK

Hole

George1

Isos

10 posters

Go to page : 1, 2

Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

PapaDragon

PapaDragon: Posts : 13277
Points : 13319
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

Post n°1

Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

PapaDragon Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:27 pm

I have a question about something that should be on the table decade or more away from now when Su-57 is in well oiled mass production:

We know that Su-34 bomber is derivative of baseline Su-27 fighter where mass production was leveraged to create a bomber by enlarging central section/cockpit

So down the road when Su-57 is widely available and time comes to start making replacement for Su-34 I think that they will be in even better position to create new bomber based on Su-57

As before (on Su-34) avionics, wings, engines, stabilizes and landing gear would remain the same

What would be new is central section which would be enlarged to create huge ordinance bay, larger fuel capacity and closed two men cockpit just like on Su-34

Only significant modification other components would need is change in direction and movement of engine nozzles to compensate for wider position which can be done via simple software update (or even have them locked in single position for added simplicity and ease of maintenance, whatever they prefer)

As a result they will get Su-34 successor as both standard and naval bomber which would be low observable, share components with Su-57, be able to carry large amount of bombs and missiles of all types internally over longer distances than Su-34 or 57 (in part due to internal ordinance bay) and thanks to more space for computers and two men crew would be excellent platform for controlling large number of UAVs without overworking a single pilot

Crew comfort goes without saying (closed cockpit as on Su-34)

As Su-34 compared to Su-27 it would be less manoeuvrable than vanilla Su-57 but it's no big deal since it wouldn't be dedicated fighter aircraft anyway (obviously it would be able to decently protect itself if necessary just like Su-34 is today)

Let's call it Su-64 to keep up with tradition

So guys that's my take, what are are your thoughts on this? Question

dino00 likes this post

Isos

Isos: Posts : 11301
Points : 11271
Join date : 2015-11-06

Post n°2

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Isos Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:06 am

I already mentionned su-64 the same way in the su-57 thread I think.

Logic wants that it will appear one day or another.

But that's not sure.

1) Su-57 is a stealthy design. Bomber need to carry a shitton of bombs and, now, even air to air missiles. Unlikely you can fit that much in weapon bays.

2) They have s-70 and the new drone they presented last time for air to ground mission which will take the lead in such missions over manned aircraft.

3) su-57 can use anything a su-34 uses. New fighters are multirole. Difference btw su-30SM and su-34 is very small and they buy su-34 only because Russia keeps the categories fighter/interceptor/bomber/CAS. But now they use the same systems on all the aircraft and they end up being the same. Su-30 is upgraded to be a su-35. Su-34 will be upgraded with the same stuff.

4) su-34 is there for a long time. Stand off weapons are better than stealth.

PapaDragon

PapaDragon: Posts : 13277
Points : 13319
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

Post n°3

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

PapaDragon Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:40 am

Isos wrote:I already mentionned su-64 the same way in the su-57 thread I think.

Logic wants that it will appear one day or another.

But that's not sure.

1) Su-57 is a stealthy design. Bomber need to carry a shitton of bombs and, now, even air to air missiles. Unlikely you can fit that much in weapon bays....

You missed my point there, I wasn't talking about some slight increase in size of weapon bay, I was talking about making new central section large enough to fit almost entire Su-34 ordinance load internally

This would be something with full emphasis on range and payload

I am talking about having several Zircon missiles on revolver launcher

Or enough standard bombs to have two Su-64s do the same job that Tu-22s were doing over Syria

Isos

Isos: Posts : 11301
Points : 11271
Join date : 2015-11-06

Post n°4

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Isos Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:15 am

Impossible if you take su-57 as a basis. What you describe is a stealth tu-160.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 39000
Points : 39496
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°5

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

GarryB Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:46 am

All good points, but it would be interesting to see which way things go... ie stealthy with Su-57 or high speed like MiG-41... will low altitude high speed flight remain a viable attack flight profile or will they retire to altitude attack and try to use speed to survive... I suspect the mix would be likely as with most third world enemies the medium altitude flight profile keeps you safe from MANPADS and trash fire, but against a peer enemy flying at such altitudes without excessive speed then you become a bit vulnerable.

A strike bomber two seat variant of the Su-57 would be interesting... by reducing the low altitude speed requirements and high altitude speed requirements you could radically thicken the wing and enlarge the engine spacing for perhaps rather bigger ventral weapon bays with perhaps further bays outside the engine nacelles, and perhaps even on the spine or back of the aircraft for self defence missiles.

I would hope however that a huge flying wing PAK DA would make the Su-34 replacement less critical as essentially a more useful subsonic Bear...

The idea of a highly supersonic interceptor able to fly several thousands kms in radius.... 5K plus perhaps, with internal very large AAMs might create an opportunity for a strike model of that platform too.

PapaDragon

PapaDragon: Posts : 13277
Points : 13319
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

Post n°6

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

PapaDragon Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:56 pm

Isos wrote:Impossible if you take su-57 as a basis. What you describe is a stealth tu-160.

It's quite possible

Central section would need to be redesigned from scratch and would be quite large but since priority would be on payload and range over speed it would not be an issue

GarryB wrote:A strike bomber two seat variant of the Su-57 would be interesting... by reducing the low altitude speed requirements and high altitude speed requirements you could radically thicken the wing and enlarge the engine spacing for perhaps rather bigger ventral weapon bays ...

Precisely what I'm talking about

Bomb truck for Syria style situations and long endurance cruise and anti-ship missile carrier for peer adversaries

And like Su-34 it would be available in large numbers and easy to maintain thanks to sharing supply chain with aircraft that's already widely in use

GarryB wrote:I would hope however that a huge flying wing PAK DA would make the Su-34 replacement less critical as essentially a more useful subsonic Bear.....

True, PAK-DA is a necessity

I was suggesting this Su-64 as something that would go in use couple of decades after Su-57 just like Su-34 did several decades after Su-27, it wouldn't be economical earlier than that

Plus if they manage to fit Kinzhal on Su-34s it will make them even more valuable

George1

George1: Posts : 18319
Points : 18816
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece

Post n°7

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

George1 Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:03 pm

nice subject for discussion so i made a seperate topic

Isos

Isos: Posts : 11301
Points : 11271
Join date : 2015-11-06

Post n°8

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Isos Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:00 pm

Revolver pylon with Tsirkon (that is made for UKSK so huge size) inside a su-57 dervitated aircraft ? That's impossible.

Even with two missiles that would be implssible. Just look how big is a Brahmos on a su-30MKI. The revolver launcher would be as big as a su-57.

What you describe is a pak da.

Hole

Hole: Posts : 10734
Points : 10712
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 47
Location : Scholzistan

Post n°9

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Hole Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:12 pm

The RuAF already tested a mock-up of a new small hypersonic missile for the Su-57. 5 or 6 of them on a rotary launcher... scratch

On the one hand the PAK-DA will be able to carry more weapons then a Su-57 Hellduck version. On the other hand Russia is developing a new interceptor despite the Su-57. The interceptor will be faster (+ longer range?), maybe a frontal bomber version of the Su-57 would gain some weight/internal space for speed = be slower, just as the Su-34 is slower then the Su-27.

Isos

Isos: Posts : 11301
Points : 11271
Join date : 2015-11-06

Post n°10

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Isos Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:18 pm

Even a rotary launcher for r-77 would not fit. The new hypersonic may be "smaller" but that's compare to UKSK launched missiles. For a fighter they will still be big. Just like kh-59 or kh-31.

The rotary launcher would take 2m in height at least. Not to talk about the weight of such launcher.

New missiles are all stand off. Su-57 with truck missile S-70 will do the job.

For longer range they will have kalibr M with 4500km, tu-160 and pak da with new missiles and mig-31/41 with kinzhal.

dino00 likes this post

JohninMK

JohninMK: Posts : 14692
Points : 14827
Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England

Post n°11

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:27 pm

With all that payload surely its getting close to some of the roles of a Tu-22M.

PapaDragon likes this post

magnumcromagnon

magnumcromagnon: Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

Post n°12

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

magnumcromagnon Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:31 pm

I honestly foresee a Su-62/64 taking the drone control 'loyal wingman' concept further than a Su-57. Take the enlarged cabin on a Su-34 and stretch it out a bit, add an additional 4 (or perhaps 6) crew members and allow them 4-6 S-70/drone command consoles. The chairs on the Su-62/64 should be enhanced so instead of having separate sleeping quarters, they could rotate, flatten, stretch and widen their chairs in to beds. The stretched cabin should allow greater weapons bay depth. The greater focus on the penetration/strike-bomber could justify having above fuselage jet engine air ducts to allow greater freedom/flexibility and use of internal weapons bay design.

PapaDragon likes this post

PapaDragon

PapaDragon: Posts : 13277
Points : 13319
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

Post n°13

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

PapaDragon Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:54 pm

Isos wrote:Revolver pylon with Tsirkon (that is made for UKSK so huge size) inside a su-57 dervitated aircraft ? That's impossible....

Then omit the revolver, mount couple of them standard style, whatever fits will do

Besides there are smaller missiles than Tsirkon

Isos wrote:Even with two missiles that would be implssible. Just look how big is a Brahmos on a su-30MKI. ...

It wouldn't be impossible side by side, like I said they would be making new large central section

You design bomb bay around ordinance you intend to carry

Having two cruise missiles good to go is already more than plenty

And like I said there are standard bombs and missiles to haul

Plus missiles will be getting smaller over time while their range would increase, just compare Granit and Onyx

There is nearly 30 years span between Su-27 and Su-34 introduction, roughly that long would pass between Su-57 and ''Su-64''

That’s a whole lot of time to design lots and lots of new missiles of all sizes

JohninMK wrote:With all that payload surely its getting close to some of the roles of a Tu-22M.

Actually 2 or 3 of them to replace 1 Tu-22M more or less

At fraction of the price, Su-34 for example is crazy efficient thanks to being a derivative platform

marcellogo

marcellogo: Posts : 638
Points : 644
Join date : 2012-08-02
Age : 55
Location : Italy

Post n°14

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

marcellogo Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:51 am

What Made Flanker Family Great was the Blended Wing/Podded Engine configuration i.e. getting rid of the fuselage.

Fantastic structural solidity coupled with aerodynamics, huge space for fuel and great payload:jackpot.

Su-57 inherited and advanced further such advantages but with bomb bays into the tunnel between the two engines.

There is however a pair of key limiting factors there: one is about structural solidity and the other about the general aerodynamic form of plane.

First one limited the length of the bays: two 4,2 meter bays instead of a single 9 meter one.

Second one limited the depth of them: tunnel between engine pods could be somewhat reduced but it have to stay to keep the advantages of the Blended Wing configuration.

So, let's forget about a Su-64: only possible dimensional gain advantage would be in bomb bays width and would be quite limited anyway.
Not worth the effort.

S-70/PAK-DA bay wouldn't have such severe intrinsic limitations, they could be made longer OR deeper without spoiling anything.

Last edited by marcellogo on Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total

magnumcromagnon

magnumcromagnon: Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

Post n°15

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

magnumcromagnon Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:14 am

Russian Ministry of Defence: Su-34 has proven time and time again it's value & reliability in real combat situations in Syria. Fighter aircraft of it's nature and role have a guaranteed future in the VKS.

Internet speculators: According to our logic and understanding there's no future for a Su-34 successor tactical strike bomber and it's role, utilizing the most advanced aerospace technology available. Apparently we labeled it obsolete for no apparent logical reason whatsoever.

Isos

Isos: Posts : 11301
Points : 11271
Join date : 2015-11-06

Post n°16

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Isos Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:48 am

magnumcromagnon wrote:Russian Ministry of Defence: Su-34 has proven time and time again it's value & reliability in real combat situations in Syria. Fighter aircraft of it's nature and role have a guaranteed future in the VKS.

Internet speculators: According to our logic and understanding there's no future for a Su-34 successor tactical strike bomber and it's role, utilizing the most advanced aerospace technology available. Apparently we labeled it obsolete for no apparent logical reason whatsoever.

S-70 is already doing a part of su-34 job.

Deap penetration of enemy territory with use of anti radar or other ground attack munitions but also air to air missiles.

Technology evolves.

Syria is a low level conflict. If those su-34 had to penetrate in a country defended by f-35 or f-22 they wouldn't be doing so good.

LMFS

LMFS: Posts : 5102
Points : 5098
Join date : 2018-03-03

Post n°17

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

LMFS Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:13 am

Interestingly UCAVs, stealth planes and long range precision weapons make planes like Su-34 not irrelevant or redundant, but rather able to serve for many decades. The degradation of the enemy critical infrastructure can be done in a first step with hypersonic weapons, then lower ranking AD can be taken out with UCAV or stealth planes. But after that, humble tactical bombers in numbers will still be needed to cause attrition on a large scale with low own costs, enabled by the rest of high tech assets. I don't think any Su-34 style development is in the making or specially necessary for the Su-57, that would make the S-70 redundant. And by the time the Su-34M, which is being developed at the same time the Su-57 enters service, is decommissioned, tactical air power will probably look quite different, so much that I would not risk making any prognosis...

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 39000
Points : 39496
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°18

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

GarryB Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:40 am

And like Su-34 it would be available in large numbers and easy to maintain thanks to sharing supply chain with aircraft that's already widely in use

The existence of the Su-34 and its design features were constrained by the existence of the Su-25 CAS aircraft and light strike aircraft, and the Tu-22M3 heavy strike aircraft above it.

The Su-34 was specifically designed to replace the Su-24 which gives you a speed and payload weight and flight range set of specifications.

I would think that an Su-57 type would be similarly bordered with the PAK DA defining the heavy payload and long range of a proper stealth theatre bomber... so it does not need super long range or super heavy payload... I would think new generation hypersonic manouvering weapons will evade enemy air defences and hit rather hard and rather accurately so I actually think rather than carrying more than the Su-34, it would most likely be carrying rather less, but potentially in a large bay that allows heavy individual weapons to be carried like 1,500kg weapons perhaps.

Really big weapons or large volumes of weapons or standoff glide weapons or just long range missiles would be carried by PAK DA instead I suspect.

There was a lot of artwork during the 1990s of the S-60 that often ended up looking like a cross between an Su-34 and a Tu-22M3 as a Tu-22M3 replacement... but we now expect the flying wing subsonic PAK DA will be doing that job.

An Su-57 based Su-34 should in theory be called Su-44 because it is the next iteration in the 24/34 family of strike aircraft, though the 24 was contemporary to the 27 and the 34 was contemporary to the 35 so with the current model being the Su-57 perhaps Su-54 would be the best choice.

Seek and yea shall find...

Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57 Galler10

Looks rather good actually... the replacement for canards with levicons makes sense and the need for horizontal tail surfaces on a strike aircraft is not a high priority... especially with thrust vectoring nozzles anyway...

I would probably shift the engines rather further apart to make space for a large central weapons bay... you could probably have a command version that acts like the Su-30 with Su-35 avionics... sort of a mini AWACS platform with lots of missiles and two seats but also toilet and food for long missions at not particularly high speeds over Arctic waters looking for enemy fighters and bombers and cruise missiles... with a huge AESA radar in the nose and nose sides and enlarged wing roots.

Plus if they manage to fit Kinzhal on Su-34s it will make them even more valuable

I would hope by then a high performance missile of much more suitable size and shape could be developed for such aircraft...

With all that payload surely its getting close to some of the roles of a Tu-22M.

Such payloads internally would either require a much bigger plane which would make it too much like the PAK DA and therefore redundant, or they would need to carry them externally or use upwardly firing internal bays...

I honestly foresee a Su-62/64 taking the drone control 'loyal wingman' concept further than a Su-57. Take the enlarged cabin on a Su-34 and stretch it out a bit, add an additional 4 (or perhaps 6) crew members and allow them 4-6 S-70/drone command consoles. The chairs on the Su-62/64 should be enhanced so instead of having separate sleeping quarters, they could rotate, flatten, stretch and widen their chairs in to beds. The stretched cabin should allow greater weapons bay depth. The greater focus on the penetration/strike-bomber could justify having above fuselage jet engine air ducts to allow greater freedom/flexibility and use of internal weapons bay design.

Honestly I would think an Il-114 or Il-112 would probably be better for controlling drones like that.

Or at the other end of the scale Il-96M.

Besides there are smaller missiles than Tsirkon

They are making new weapons optimised for Su-57s internal weapons bay... an enlarged bay should therefore be able to take rather more weapons, as perhaps could the internal weapons bays of existing and new bombers... Tu-22M3M, Tu-160, PAK DA...

Actually 2 or 3 of them to replace 1 Tu-22M more or less

They would be replacing any Su-24s still in use and then Su-34s.

The Tu-22m3 will be replaced by the PAK DA...

George1 likes this post

LMFS

LMFS: Posts : 5102
Points : 5098
Join date : 2018-03-03

Post n°19

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

LMFS Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:48 pm

GarryB wrote:Looks rather good actually... the replacement for canards with levicons makes sense and the need for horizontal tail surfaces on a strike aircraft is not a high priority... especially with thrust vectoring nozzles anyway...

I would probably shift the engines rather further apart to make space for a large central weapons bay... you could probably have a command version that acts like the Su-30 with Su-35 avionics... sort of a mini AWACS platform with lots of missiles and two seats but also toilet and food for long missions at not particularly high speeds over Arctic waters looking for enemy fighters and bombers and cruise missiles... with a huge AESA radar in the nose and nose sides and enlarged wing roots.

That is a nice drawing and makes sense... but for the fact that is essentially the same a Su-57 is already. The key of those 5G planes being all single seater is the intellectual support of the pilot, which almost does not need to pilot at all, but manage the mission at a high level. I see no talk about making two seater versions of them, because it is not necessary. And if you make the fuselage bigger, separate the nacelles further, make new bays etc etc. you are making a new plane and therefore in need of repeating all structural, handling, flight envelope and separation tests.

PapaDragon

PapaDragon: Posts : 13277
Points : 13319
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

Post n°20

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

PapaDragon Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am

LMFS wrote:...And if you make the fuselage bigger, separate the nacelles further, make new bays etc etc. you are making a new plane and therefore in need of repeating all structural, handling, flight envelope and separation tests.

Correct but that would have to be done with any new aircraft

But it would be paying off big time with performance, availability and affordability just like with Su-34

And we just got the news that they are working on new Gremlin small hypersonic missile

I am sure that down the road it will all come together just like it did for Su-34 but we still have decades to go of course, Su-34 is just warming up and Su-57 is just getting delivered

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 39000
Points : 39496
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°21

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

GarryB Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:06 am

There are other options... they could reduce the effect of the lifting body and fill the gap between the engine nacelles for much deeper weapon bays... and weapon bays could be added to much thicker wings outside the engines to have self defence missiles located there.

Furthermore talk of upward ejection of weapons could allow the top of the aircraft to be used for carrying and launching weapons, though specialist loading equipment might be needed for that...

Reduced speed requirements could allow large wingtip tanks to be added as part of the self defence suite that also contains three weapon locations for missiles each... able to eject missiles horizontally, vertically up and vertically down it could carry three small self defence air to air missiles similar to the wing mounted weapons on the Su-57.

In fact it could have three or four other single missile weapon positions along the wing too for extra weapons and half a dozen on the back spine of the aircraft launching up.

As I mentioned they are developing a short range CAS aircraft that might be LMFS or it might be something else in addition to that, and above it will be PAK DA in the theatre strike role with a huge conventional payload and because of its massive size way more flight range and probably stealth than this aircraft will have.

The other direction would be to minimise the changes and make the Su-54 into a supercruising strike aircraft so a smaller payload is acceptable because of the speed advantage it will have over the subsonic PAK DA.

They might develop a variety of Su-57s going forward... from carrier based models to dedicated EW platforms and command and control models perhaps.

LMFS

LMFS: Posts : 5102
Points : 5098
Join date : 2018-03-03

Post n°22

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

LMFS Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:09 pm

PapaDragon wrote:
Correct but that would have to be done with any new aircraft

But it would be paying off big time with performance, availability and affordability just like with Su-34

And we just got the news that they are working on new Gremlin small hypersonic missile

I am sure that down the road it will all come together just like it did for Su-34 but we still have decades to go of course, Su-34 is just warming up and Su-57 is just getting delivered

I still fail to see what the Su-34 type of plane would be offering, which a Okhotnik-Su-57 combo cannot, or on the affordability side of things, why the Su-34 and 34M should be substituted any time soon. I think we agree the need is decades away.

GarryB wrote:There are other options... they could reduce the effect of the lifting body and fill the gap between the engine nacelles for much deeper weapon bays... and weapon bays could be added to much thicker wings outside the engines to have self defence missiles located there.

The engine nacelles are spaced because there is a tunnel in the middle, if not you are just doubling the cross section of the plane and making it a flying brick that most likely cannot fly supersonic. Put bigger wings and you take the supersonic flight away, even more. Congratulations, you end up with a twin engined Okhotnik but less stealthy and more expensive. I see no need for that.

As I mentioned they are developing a short range CAS aircraft that might be LMFS or it might be something else in addition to that, and above it will be PAK DA in the theatre strike role with a huge conventional payload and because of its massive size way more flight range and probably stealth than this aircraft will have.

I think CAS will be de facto done by UCAV in the near future. All sorts of strike roles are increasingly being left to unmanned platforms because close to the ground battle, attrition is taken fro granted. That does not mean the multirole fighters are not going to continue being strike platforms too, but they will try to be used in stand-off mode preferentially. Of course the manned/unmanned option for the same platform allows for increased flexibility in that regard.

The other direction would be to minimise the changes and make the Su-54 into a supercruising strike aircraft so a smaller payload is acceptable because of the speed advantage it will have over the subsonic PAK DA.

Yes, this is also called Su-57. The Sukhoi designers did not just create an answer to the F-22, they gave it big range and the weapon bays of a bomber. Combined with supersonic cruise it is a fearsome strike platform. I assume it will not be normally used as a bomb truck, but rather use sophisticated weapons against high value targets, less demanding roles can be covered further by the Su-34

They might develop a variety of Su-57s going forward... from carrier based models to dedicated EW platforms and command and control models perhaps.

Carrier version indeed, others may not need a lot of changes. Maybe an unmanned one that, apart from the usual roles, can use RF weapons or specially high power jamming.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 39000
Points : 39496
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°23

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

GarryB Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:14 am

I still fail to see what the Su-34 type of plane would be offering, which a Okhotnik-Su-57 combo cannot, or on the affordability side of things, why the Su-34 and 34M should be substituted any time soon. I think we agree the need is decades away.

Quite some time away... agreed.

And the hypothetical is also in the title... dismissing it out of hand rather runs counter to the idea of a hypothetical discussion.

Though less realistic you should be putting known facts and standard practises to the test and work out if they actually really make sense to continue.

The engine nacelles are spaced because there is a tunnel in the middle, if not you are just doubling the cross section of the plane and making it a flying brick that most likely cannot fly supersonic.

And how often does the Su-34 ever reach its operational top speed of mach 1.8 anyway?

Being a low level high speed strike platform or a medium altitude level bomber against weak opposition, I would think very high speed is not that useful.

BTW being the sized of a brick with no tunnel between the engine nacelles... you mean like the F-15 and The MiG-25 and MiG-31... yeah... slowest planes out there...

Put bigger wings and you take the supersonic flight away, even more. Congratulations, you end up with a twin engined Okhotnik but less stealthy and more expensive. I see no need for that.

Stop being ridiculous... thicker wings and no tunnel between the engine bays makes it the same speed as an S-70 but with vastly more internal weapons bays of much larger volume... which is what a strike plane would benefit more from than being slightly faster.

I think CAS will be de facto done by UCAV in the near future.

Yet they continue to spend money on upgraded helicopters and fixed wing manned aircraft for the role...

All sorts of strike roles are increasingly being left to unmanned platforms because close to the ground battle, attrition is taken fro granted.

The state of the art countries in modern air warfare... the US and Israel seem to prefer eye wateringly expensive stealth fighters less capable than the previous generation in every regard except stealth, and standoff anti air defence weapons.

Considering the manouvering Hermes is being worked on and will likely be ready in a few years I suspect that and the LMUR will be the standard armament of CAS aircraft.

Carrier version indeed, others may not need a lot of changes. Maybe an unmanned one that, apart from the usual roles, can use RF weapons or specially high power jamming.

How about a longer one with more internal fuel and better range and an extra few internal weapon bays, but no horizontal tail and optimised with a larger wing for higher altitude operations and high speeds...

LMFS

LMFS: Posts : 5102
Points : 5098
Join date : 2018-03-03

Post n°24

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

LMFS Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:11 pm

GarryB wrote:And the hypothetical is also in the title... dismissing it out of hand rather runs counter to the idea of a hypothetical discussion.

Yeah, it means that I don't see such a plane necessary at all. And if the set of requirements is flawed, the result is too, a bit like JSF Razz

And how often does the Su-34 ever reach its operational top speed of mach 1.8 anyway?

Then why did Sukhoi were so stupid to saddle the plane with such requirements? This sounds like US excuses for the practical ban of supersonic flight of the F-35B and C

Being a low level high speed strike platform or a medium altitude level bomber against weak opposition, I would think very high speed is not that useful.

It is not for us to decide, VKS knows what they need and they got a supersonic tactical bomber. There are several reasons for this, you know it.

BTW being the sized of a brick with no tunnel between the engine nacelles... you mean like the F-15 and The MiG-25 and MiG-31... yeah... slowest planes out there...

Come on Garry that is a serious misjudgement. F-15 or MiG-31 are compact layouts where intakes are at the sides of the cockpit and engines are tightly packed side by side. The Flanker has ventral intakes and podded, separated engines. F-15 and Flanker have roughly the same cross sectional area, they way they are designed. If you take the tunnel and fill it, you grow massively the drag of the plane.

Stop being ridiculous... thicker wings and no tunnel between the engine bays makes it the same speed as an S-70 but with vastly more internal weapons bays of much larger volume... which is what a strike plane would benefit more from than being slightly faster.

Have you wondered why did they design the Okhotnik the size they did, and not bigger? As you said yourself, they will have the PAK-DA above in terms of payload. In general, the notion of using a supercruising fighter as a basis of a B-52 is quite the idea you know...

Yet they continue to spend money on upgraded helicopters and fixed wing manned aircraft for the role...

Helicopters with 100 km range missiles and launching drones, from what we know. Manned platforms try as hard as they can to move away from the "C" in CAS, it makes a lot of sense because the worst attrition is that of your pilots. Platforms today are too complex to train competent crews in some weeks like it was done before.

How about a longer one with more internal fuel and better range and an extra few internal weapon bays, but no horizontal tail and optimised with a larger wing for higher altitude operations and high speeds...

A Su-57 PCA/NGAD? Let us see what the US does, before going that way. They have shown very futuristic models but from the way they are acting, they are trying to get a substitute for their 5G fighters. It is entirely possible that rather than a tailless 6G design they simply opt for a PAK-FA like platform. That PCA/NGAD development would be IMO the only reason to develop such a platform in Russia, Su-57 is already longer ranged, with bigger payload and possibly faster with higher service ceiling than anything US has. Making a platform like the one you say would detract from short range combat and therefore from versatility of the plane.

marcellogo

marcellogo: Posts : 638
Points : 644
Join date : 2012-08-02
Age : 55
Location : Italy

Post n°25

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

marcellogo Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 am

GarryB wrote:

And how often does the Su-34 ever reach its operational top speed of mach 1.8 anyway?

Being a low level high speed strike platform or a medium altitude level bomber against weak opposition, I would think very high speed is not that useful.

BTW being the sized of a brick with no tunnel between the engine nacelles... you mean like the F-15 and The MiG-25 and MiG-31... yeah... slowest planes out there...

Stop being ridiculous... thicker wings and no tunnel between the engine bays makes it the same speed as an S-70 but with vastly more internal weapons bays of much larger volume... which is what a strike plane would benefit more from than being slightly faster.

I think CAS will be de facto done by UCAV in the near future.

Yet they continue to spend money on upgraded helicopters and fixed wing manned aircraft for the role...
Considering the manouvering Hermes is being worked on and will likely be ready in a few years I suspect that and the LMUR will be the standard armament of CAS aircraft.
How about a longer one with more internal fuel and better range and an extra few internal weapon bays, but no horizontal tail and optimised with a larger wing for higher altitude operations and high speeds...

Maybe LMFS exaggerate a little but certainly building a plane derived by Su-57 without the advantages given by its peculiar design characteristics would amount to a self contradiction in itself.

Trying to keep the advantage of the two design together (let's call it the Felduck, agree?) will impact against the same iron walls I highlighted in my previous post.

Said so, I would bet on a dedicated D (or even better DR) version of PAK-DP.

Russia Defence Forum

Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Re: Hypothetical Su-34 sucessor based on Su-57

Similar topics

Similar topics