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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    medo
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:32 am

    I think modernization in South military region have much to do with non stability around Syria and Iran, which could any time expect attack from West and with conflicts in Caucasus region. Strong Russian army in South military district is important barrier, that this caos from South could not spreed into Europe through Caucasus. But Europe have still two strategically weak spots, Greece and Spain, which are bankrupt states.

    I think those Osas, which will be replaced with new Tors, will go in weaker regions or into reserve for the moment.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:13 pm

    The Osa is not a bad system and would still be useful in several roles today... like dealing with cruise missiles and UAVs.

    They are quite mobile too, and they likely have a large stock of them available.

    I know they sell them as target drones for newer systems too so they must have a few...

    I agree that bolstering the black sea area will be useful... no point locking the front door when the back door is wide open so to speak.

    They have moved enough weapons and equipment into Abkhazia and South Ossetia so that any attempt by Saakashvili will do more than give him a bloody nose this time... they will likely take his head off.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:07 am

    Photos of TOR-M2 recently delivered to Belarus.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:32 am

    Excellent picture of Belarus Tor-M2. I hope there will soon be pictures of Russian Tor-M2U that we could see if Russian Tors are wheeled or tracked ones.

    Do they still have only old TV camera?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:09 pm

    Do they still have only old TV camera?

    Even their BMPs are getting thermal sights, so I would be very disappointed if their SAMs didn't get thermals too.

    They have invested a lot of money on thermal sights from lots of different places around the world, including France and Sweden and South Korea. I they want their infantry to fight 24 hours then they will also want to defend those forces 24 hours a day too.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:49 pm

    I would think they are better of upgrading their SA-13 , SA-6 ,SA-3 , Tor-M1 or older SAM they have with some decent digital upgrade to radars and getting a backup passive guidance , if required keeping their missile same.

    There are so many threats out there like Cruise Missile ,UAV ,PGM that are used so extensively in todays war that these old but effective SAM with upgrades would be able to deal with them.

    No point in throwing these good SAM , Serbs did a marvelous job with the same very SAM , I am sure with decent upgrade the Russian AD can do a equally good job.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:38 pm

    It is all about what the cost brings to the capabilities of the system.
    Optical guidance means you need an optical guidance channel, but giving it a simple TV optics system means it is only good for day operation in good weather.

    Now the OSA is an all weather system with radar guidance, but if that radar guidance is jammed or the crew don't want to give their position away till the very last minute or not at all, then a TV system will allow that on clear days. To get something like the all weather day night capability of radar then they need to spend the extra cash and get thermal sights for the optical channel.

    With SA-9 or SA-13, on paper you could say the same, though being IR guided missiles putting a thermal imager makes even more sense because any conditions the thermal imager isn't any good, then there would be no point in firing as the missiles will operate in the same frequency so they likely wont get a lock anyway.

    The thing is that before when most armour had at best Image intensification systems with limited range then having thermal sights in a SAM system is extravagant.

    With Armour having state of the art thermals then it make sense to apply thermal sights to every vehicle possible and even to give it to the infantry too.

    AFAIK there is a new system to replace the SA-9 and SA-13... now it might be morfei, or it might be Baigaluk (spelling) which is supposed to be a 10km range laser beam riding missile.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:42 pm

    Those on the picture are from Belarus and all we could see is cover over optical system. Maybe export version have only TV camera or it could have larger optical system like those on new Buk-M2, where thermal imager is inside it and not attached at side. After all, with Pantsir-S1 thermal imager is standard equipment in its optical system.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:51 pm

    Also third generation thermal imagers are much smaller and more compact because they don't need to be cooled down to cryogenic temperatures to operate properly.

    They found with the small optics ball on the Mi-28N that 3rd gen thermals were easier to use than image intensifiers... note the small optics ball is for the pilot while the larger drum shaped system is for the gunner.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:58 pm

    Let us hope we will soon see more clear pictures of optics, specially of domestic ones.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:47 am

    I have here some older pictures from Vitaly Kuzmin.




    This is portable radar 1L122-1 placed on MT-LBu and is part of Barnaul-T ASU.




    On this picture are 1L121 on the left and 1L122-2 on the right.




    1L122-2 radar is placed on hydraulic arm, which could lift it in higher position.




    This is another 1L122-2 radar, but there are rumors this is actually 1L123 radar.




    This is PPRU-M1-2 radar, which will replace old Dog ear radar.


    There are some new search radars for ground forces air defense units and the questions here are, which of those could be used as battery search radar for Tor-M2U. The other question is if any of those new radars will work with Barnaul-T on higher level, because 1L122-1 radar with 40 km range is good for MANPAD teams and Strela-10 systems, but for stronger SHORADs, like Tunguska, Tor or Pantsir, they will need radar with longer range. Also there is an option, that in brigade level they will use different radars (all three) in the same way as new Nebo-M will.





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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:22 pm

    The other question is if any of those new radars will work with Barnaul-T on higher level, because 1L122-1 radar with 40 km range is good for MANPAD teams and Strela-10 systems, but for stronger SHORADs, like Tunguska, Tor or Pantsir, they will need radar with longer range.

    I would think that the Barnaul-T system gathers in data from all sorts of local and area data sources, and having systems with ranges longer than 40km is not actually as useful as you might at first think.

    Having 40km range systems will allow you to collect relevant data around your battery HQ, but having a much longer range system will only give you longer range info about targets flying at medium and high altitude. Low flying targets will be as invisible to a 40km range radar as it would be to a 500km range radar because of the curvature of the earth.

    For most threats and allowing for its ability to engage HARMs I would think 40km is sufficient to get enough warning to defend what is being defended with TOR, and Pantsir-S1 radars turned off.

    For longer range threats BUK system radars will add to the picture too remember.

    BTW nice collection of pics Vitaly is a good photographer with access to lots of neat stuff.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:45 pm

    Barnaul-T is ASU, which work with air defense inside ground forces brigade (heavy, medium or light) and inside brigade you have air defense battalion. 1L122-1 radar with 40 km range is excellent to work with air defense batteries, who defend battalions inside brigade, but to work in battalion level and coordinate work of batteries, who defend battalions, you need radar with 80 - 100 km range, to cover the whole area in which your brigade is operating and also radars with longer range cover higher altitudes than shorter ones.

    It is quite logical, that Barnaul-T complex inside one ground forces brigade have at least one 80 km or 100 km range radar for battalion level and 4 1L122-1 40 km range radars in battery level together with similar numbers of command posts.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:59 am

    Surely at Brigade level they will also have BUK, which will not only have the longer range radar, but also the missiles to exploit the extra range.

    I wonder how the new Space and Air Defence Forces will cooperate with the land forces... surely they will share data on the air picture too?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:02 am

    Hm, good question about Buk. In past they were operating in air defense brigade level, so it means ground forces division. Now they lowered army units into brigades, so Buk could either work in battalion level inside ground forces brigade either in brigade level with group or ground forces brigades in area. I think air defense brigade work with Polyana-D4M1 and I'm sure those higher ASUs get pictures from outside sources too like from VKO radars, air force AWACS or satellites. Polyana-D4M1 could share pictures with lower Barnaul-T.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:12 am

    The whole idea behind the battle management systems in tanks and IFVs and data sharing networking, is that everyone shares information with everyone else.

    This means that the ground forces will share info about detected enemy threats and the air defence forces and air forces will share info too.

    This means an unidentified aerial target on a tanks screen might be a nearby infantrys UAV scouting the area... when the tank detects the aerial vehicle and marks it on their map as unknown then the system will search the known position of friendlies on other databases and should eventually appear as a friendly on the Tanks screen.

    Equally when a helo pops up from behind a hill... if it is patched into the local area network all the friendly vehicles should be already marked on its maps and if it detects an unknown then it can use its Thermal sights and radar and digital optics to identify the unknown as either enemy, friendly, or civilian, which will be marked on their map and passed up to HQ to mark on everyone elses map.

    What I am trying to say is that eventually even individual soldiers will be marked on the super map that everyone uses... that is what Felin is... it is a connection to the network.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:23 am

    True, but on the lower level you will have picture only of your area of working, not of all battlefield as in higher level. Problem is captured C4I systems from dead soldiers or from combat vehicles and intercepting radio signals of data links. It must not happened, that from one dead soldier enemy could get your entire data link and battlefield picture. In that case you already lost your battle. This is why pictures are collected in higher level and than send down to needed user.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:33 pm

    AFAIK FELIN includes a medical system that measures the health of the soldier, perhaps when their heart stops the system cuts them out?

    In a vehicle... something similar with a kill switch.

    Of course a sophisticated enemy doesn't need to kill or capture anyone as the amount of datalink broadcasts it should be easy to find threats...

    I would think the value of having detailed info about your own area to support your decision making process warrant the risk, though I agree that information security would have priority.

    It must be kept in mind that the information flows both ways so individual soldiers can point their rifles at targets and send the video image to HQ without firing to add to information about the enemy and their positions etc etc.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:00 pm

    medo wrote:Excellent picture of Belarus Tor-M2. I hope there will soon be pictures of Russian Tor-M2U that we could see if Russian Tors are wheeled or tracked ones.

    Do they still have only old TV camera?

    This video clip of the handover might contain the answer you are seeking.
    Please share your finding(s) with us.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:26 pm

    On the video Belarus Tor-M2 have the same TV camera as Tor-M1. Up to now we still didn't see any picture of domestic Tor-M2U. It is a little different, because it have more missiles in launcher than export Tor-M2 and maybe in its electronics too, so it could have different optical system.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:34 pm

    whats the difference in roles between Tor-m2 and Pantsyr in russian army?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:48 pm

    Pantsir is not jet in Russian army, only in air force air defense. But when tracked Pantsir will serve in army units, it will most probably take the role of old Tunguska, but otherwise they are equal SHORADs and could excellently supplement each other.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:34 am

    First of all one would be classed as gun/missile and the other missile.

    Second as medo points out Pantsir-S1 comes in wheeled and tracked models, though Tor will likely also be offered in different models too, the wheeled or trailer based models are designed for operating on roads or fixed sites respectively, so protecting a convoy or airfield would be likely missions for wheeled and trailer based versions respectively.

    In their Army tracked versions at Brigade level there are gun/missile regiments and missile regiments, and in a well equipped brigade the Pantsir-S1 on a tracked chassis (looking externally very much like a Tunguska with more sophisticated radar and EO sensors) would operate in the gun missile regiments and the TOR would likely operate in the Missile AD regiments. Both would perform frontline defence of ground units from low flying targets including incoming enemy missiles, aircraft and helos. Further to the rear medium range SAMs like BUK and soon Vityaz will also operate, while to the rear the S-400s and S-300VM4s will offer longer range protection and TBM protection for HQs and C4I centres and communication hubs. Major airfields will be protected by Air Force and Aerospace Defence forces and of course the aircraft themselves.

    Both are very capable and it would be hard to pick between them... TOR is probably the more expensive as its electronics and sensors are more sophisticated including a 3D search radar and phased array tracking and engagement radar. Its missiles are also probably cheaper as they are fairly simple radio command guided. Pantsir-S1 on the other hand however is also very capable and has longer reach in terms of range and altitude.
    One factor is that the Pantsir-S1 has a booster rocket to improve its performance, but that creates a danger from the falling used booster, while the TOR is a single stage missile. Pantsir-S1 has the advantage of guns so it can engage close range targets where needed while both missiles have a dead zone of about 1km where targets can't be engaged by missiles. Obviously a BMP-3 with a couple of Igla-S gripstocks and 10 missiles or so also solves that problem...


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:01 pm

    http://ria.ru/arms_news/20120716/700683482.html

    To the end of 2012 Eastern military district will receive new Tor-M2U systems. It's interesting, that there is still no pictures of Tor-M2U although last year South military district receive them.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:49 pm

    http://vpk.name/news/73812_v_eiske_zaversheno_pereuchivanie_podrazdelenii_pvo_obshevoiskovogo_soedineniya_vvo_na_zrs_torm2u.html

    AD crews from eastern military district are ending their course for Tor-M2U and at the end of August they will have live firings in Kapustin Yar.

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