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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    George1
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:30 pm

    Servicemen of the Eastern MD air defence to start mastering Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes



    Servicemen of the Eastern MD separate tank formation air defence units, which are located in Buryatia, will start mastering Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes at the base of specialized air defence center in Yeysk (Krasnodar Krai).

    In the course of the training course, the servicemen will practice loading of the launching systems, searching and detecting of aerial targets. The crews will perform first firing at the Kapustin Yar air defence training center in the second half of 2016.

    After retraining course, AD unit personnel will return to the permanent location with the new hardware.

    Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes are to replace Osa-AK systems this year.

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12075436@egNews


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:11 pm

    Russia developing Arctic version of Tor missile system

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/860114


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:07 pm



    Here we could see for the first time serial Tor-M2 with new EO complex with additional thermal imager instead of old TV camera.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:10 pm

    medo wrote:

    Here we could see for the first time serial Tor-M2 with new EO complex with additional thermal imager instead of old TV camera.

    I thought it always had a Thermal imager. There were some pictures from the Okotnik Image Processor that were taken from several plattforms, all in TV and IR channel and IIRC Tor was one of them. Have to check it this weekend tho.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:52 pm



    New Tor-M2 firing on targets in Buryatia.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:57 pm

    These new Tor-M2's, do they use the newer 9M338 missiles?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:03 pm

    sepheronx wrote:These new Tor-M2's, do they use the newer 9M338 missiles?

    I don't know for the missiles, but visual difference between them and older variant is in optical sight, where newer version have different box with TV and thermal imager instead of old long TV camera.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:51 pm

    New TOR-M2 delivered thumbsup

    [url=In Buryatia connection BBO received anti-aircraft missile systems, "Tor-M2U"]http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160407/1404148850.html[/url]

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Mon May 09, 2016 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...

    Garry, am not sure if you have seen this video, I found it on a Russian forum that I visit frequently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85q22wIk1_w

    You will notice that the first 2 missiles fired by the TOR follows a zigzag path, however the missiles fired later follows a straight path.

    So can the missiles be programmed to follow a zigzag or straight path towards the target? Thanks.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Zivo on Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 pm

    It only fires two missiles.

    I don't know exactly how Tor is programed, but the missile is guided to the predicted point of intercept by the launcher, and the path is updated as necessary. If I had to guess, due to the extreme angle present during the initial orientation phase of the flight, that the guidance system has to uses at least two separate homing algorithms. The zig-zag occurs when the algorithm switches over from the initial boost phase, to the en route/terminal phase.

    That is a very cool video. Good find.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 09, 2016 7:51 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...

    Garry, am not sure if you have seen this video, I found it on a Russian forum that I visit frequently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85q22wIk1_w

    You will notice that the first 2 missiles fired by the TOR follows a zigzag path, however the missiles fired later follows a straight path.

    So can the missiles be programmed to follow a zigzag or straight path towards the target? Thanks.

    Zigzag as you call it is simply intercept trajectory estimate correction from by guidance system, it happens on all systems. Later during the flights its determined by intercept algorithms as Zivo already stated. But its pure math, stochastic approximation. AA missiles itself do not have "avoidance" maneuvers.

    Depending on algorithms used on system in question missile will position itself differently though flight.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 10, 2016 11:48 am

    First of all nice vid... thanks for posting.

    There are two factors involved in the zig zaggy flight of the missiles... one is speed related and the other is control related.

    Very simply as the speed changes for the missiles the force generated by the control surfaces changes so as the missiles accelerate the control surfaces generate more and more lift or control force... when it starts to accelerate the control surfaces have to go full turn to get a change of heading but as the missile accelerates that force rapidly increases... think of it as a car... when going at slow speed you need significant turns of the wheel to get the car to turn one way or another but as the car accelerates you turn the wheel less and less to get it to turn.

    The control aspect is also important as the guidance system works by working out where the missile is in relation to the target, so like with an ATGM there is a half a second when the missile is launched where the command system gathers the missile under control and sends it in the correct direction to intercept the target.

    There is absolutely zero value in flying a zig zag flight profile to intercept... it just reduces speed and wastes energy.

    Once the control system has gathered the missile and the missile is moving at speed the missile will be directed to an intercept point where the target will be when the missile arrives... the target will not necessarily be heading directly at the SAM so the missile might be sent in an unusual direction for the intercept.

    Basically the time to intercept the target will be calculated and the missile will be directed to a point in space in front of the target based on its speed and flight direction... so if it is flying at 20m/s and the intercept will take 10 seconds for the missile to get there the missile wont be directed to where the target is right now, but 200m in front of where it is now... ie where it will be when the missile gets there.

    If the target is flying straight and level and does not change speed then few corrections will be needed, but if the target is dancing all over the sky... changing speed and direction randomly then its future position will be constantly tracked and course corrections will be averaged out to get as close as possible... until impact.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Thu May 12, 2016 7:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:First of all nice vid... thanks for posting.

    There are two factors involved in the zig zaggy flight of the missiles... one is speed related and the other is control related.

    Very simply as the speed changes for the missiles the force generated by the control surfaces changes so as the missiles accelerate the control surfaces generate more and more lift or control force... when it starts to accelerate the control surfaces have to go full turn to get a change of heading but as the missile accelerates that force rapidly increases... think of it as a car... when going at slow speed you need significant turns of the wheel to get the car to turn one way or another but as the car accelerates you turn the wheel less and less to get it to turn.

    The control aspect is also important as the guidance system works by working out where the missile is in relation to the target, so like with an ATGM there is a half a second when the missile is launched where the command system gathers the missile under control and sends it in the correct direction to intercept the target.

    There is absolutely zero value in flying a zig zag flight profile to intercept... it just reduces speed and wastes energy.

    Once the control system has gathered the missile and the missile is moving at speed the missile will be directed to an intercept point where the target will be when the missile arrives... the target will not necessarily be heading directly at the SAM so the missile might be sent in an unusual direction for the intercept.

    Basically the time to intercept the target will be calculated and the missile will be directed to a point in space in front of the target based on its speed and flight direction... so if it is flying at 20m/s and the intercept will take 10 seconds for the missile to get there the missile wont be directed to where the target is right now, but 200m in front of where it is now... ie where it will be when the missile gets there.

    If the target is flying straight and level and does not change speed then few corrections will be needed, but if the target is dancing all over the sky... changing speed and direction randomly then its future position will be constantly tracked and course corrections will be averaged out to get as close as possible... until impact.

    This is an awesome explanation GarryB. One of those posts that makes this forum special. + 100.

    Just one question, how is the design of a seeker for an Air-to-Air missile different from the design of a Air-to-Ground missile?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 13, 2016 11:08 am

    Just one question, how is the design of a seeker for an Air-to-Air missile different from the design of a Air-to-Ground missile?

    The differences were huge, but will actually disappear in the future.

    Do you know what a PIR is?

    Where you work there is probably one in the room.. it is basically an IR sensor that detects heat and movement and would be part of the security system in most offices.

    Old AAM seekers were much like that, they didn't form an image like a thermal imager... they just detected hot spots as blobs, which was used to steer the missile towards a target in the air.

    things like the sun or heated rocks on the ground could easily distract such a simple seeker so to get a lock you slaved the missile seeker directly forward and then flew your plane to behind the enemy aircraft where you were looking directly up his engine tail pipe and then locked your missile and fired it.

    With no sun behind the target you assumed the target it locked was the target aircrafts engine.

    Problem is that a flare is also hot so if he popped a flare your missile might go after that instead.

    Later seekers could see more clearly and your average enemy aircraft became a cluster of hot points so an individual flare did not work so well as it was too hot and the missile seeker might have locked onto a less hot part of the target pattern.

    Solution was to release an enormous number of flares to create a pattern to distract the seeker.

    Point is that these seekers look for IR patterns rather than actual targets so a group of rocks on the ground could look like a vehicle or vice versa.

    To engage targets on the ground you need to have an IR image where targets are actually defined shapes as well as patterns.

    New AAMs like ASRAAM and Morfei will have IIR or imaging infra red seekers that actually form an image of the target.

    Anyway very simply an AAM with an IR seeker has a very simple IR detector sensor, whereas to hit ground targets you need an imaging IR sensor... the latter is also beginning to be used in AAMs as well.

    Note the Pantsir-S combines EO (ie Low light level TV, and Thermal Imaging) as well as MMW and CMW radar to track the target and the outgoing missiles... and cheap simple command guidance to send course corrections to the very cheap missile... makes it capable and cheap to use... and indeed able to be used against almost any target within line of sight... including ground targets.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Sat May 14, 2016 12:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Just one question, how is the design of a seeker for an Air-to-Air missile different from the design of a Air-to-Ground missile?
    Later seekers could see more clearly and your average enemy aircraft became a cluster of hot points so an individual flare did not work so well as it was too hot and the missile seeker might have locked onto a less hot part of the target pattern.

    So GarryB, is it possible to design an air-to-air or air-to-ground missile that has several types of seekers in just one missile? In other words the missile will have

    1. Radar Guidance
    2. IR Guidance
    3. TV Guidance
    4. Satellite Guidance


    Is it possible to design such a missile? Thanks again.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Regular on Sat May 14, 2016 1:34 pm

    Garry is da man, but after seeing Your post I wanted to chip in.
    Sounds like You are describing wunderwaffle missle who would cost as much as jet shooting it:) Also there are plenty of multichannel weapons about like good old KH-25 family, why would You want to put all seekers in one missle and see it explode? What would be benefit of added weight and cost. Not to mention You want to tailor missile to Your needs. There are plenty of weapons who have TV guidance in late stage.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 15, 2016 11:58 am

    Sounds like You are describing wunderwaffle missle who would cost as much as jet shooting it:

    For older missiles the old PIR type IR emission detector was sophisticated enough for hitting aircraft and it was cheap enough to be widely used.

    For the air to ground use however it was useless against ground targets because you could not tell what you had locked.

    Old thermal imagers were enormously expensive and simply would be overkill for use against aircraft.

    Against ground targets you could look at the image and select a real target... indeed many targets could be selected by computer processing of the image so you could let it find potential targets itself with the operator confirming targets and locking them.

    Also there are plenty of multichannel weapons about like good old KH-25 family, why would You want to put all seekers in one missle and see it explode?

    Kh-25 is not multichannel... it has several seeker options but it can't use more than one guidance option at a time. For instance with a laser spot seeker it is the Kh-25ML or AS-10 Karen laser homing missile... with that seeker fitted it cannot be used against radar installations seeking radar waves like an anti radiation missile.

    What would be benefit of added weight and cost. Not to mention You want to tailor missile to Your needs. There are plenty of weapons who have TV guidance in late stage.

    If you can make it cheap enough the benefit is flexibility in use... a big radar station is radiating so you launch an anti radiation missile... but the launch is detected so the radar station turns off for a few seconds in the hope the missile will miss. Unknown to the radar station your anti radiation missile has an IR sensor and a very large radar generates a large amount of heat so even though the incoming missile can no longer detect a radar wave signal to home in it can still see a hot spot at exactly the same location it previously saw the radar emissions so it hits the IR target instead of the radio wave target... the radar gets destroyed anyway.

    Another combination is ARM and GLONASS... as it flys towards its target it calculates the coordinates of the target so when the radar turns off the missile continues to the location where the radar signal was detected/tracked so the target gets hit anyway.

    We have seen versions of the Kh-58 anti radiation missile with IR sensors.

    New technology like QWIP sensors make things even more interesting.

    [quote]So GarryB, is it possible to design an air-to-air or air-to-ground missile that has several types of seekers in just one missile? In other words the missile will have

    1. Radar Guidance
    2. IR Guidance
    3. TV Guidance
    4. Satellite Guidance


    Is it possible to design such a missile? Thanks again.[/qutoe]

    Very much so.

    In fact you can go a step further... radar guidance can be passive ie anti radiation missile, or active, with active radar homing. Satellite inertial guidance is a common standard backup, and IIR and TV guidance will become common with QWIP technology.

    Very simply if you look at a digital camera that you have... whether it is a digital video camera or the camera on your cell phone, if you look through the viewer to take a photo or video and point a TV remote control at the viewer and push a button on the remote control... you should see a flashing light behind the black panel on the front of the remote.

    Very simply modern CCD chips are sensitive to normal visible light, but they are also sensitive to IR light... not actual heat... they are not thermal cameras, but active IR light.

    A QWIP chip is similar and can be made sensitive to a range of light from UV to visible light through to IR. (note UV just means beyond violet light wave and IR means beyond red... visible light is red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet... so you have beyond red (IR), then red, then orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet and then beyond violet (ie UV).

    A QWIP sensor chip can be made sensitive to all those frequencies and more so like the alien hunter in predator you could switch between frequency ranges to get the best view of the target.

    On a clear crisp morning visible frequencies will give the best view, but at night or in bad weather IR can be used to improve normal light frequencies.

    A radar dish in the nose of a missile able to detect radar emissions and to send a radar signal in active mode with side mounted optical ports able to detect IR and visible light and UV rays and an internal GLONASS navigation system and you have a real multirole seeker.

    Of course it is more realistic to have a radar model with Glonass and an EO model with GLonass... the former can be used against aircraft or moving ground targets and enemy radar, while the latter could be used against pretty much anything... it can see in the dark and it could detect laser spots so you could use it with laser homing systems too.

    The point is that QWIP sensor chips can be printed like CCD chips and AESA modules so eventually they will become very very cheap and you will be seeing them all over the place... modern optics are much much smaller than the 1980s... in the 1980s a thermal imager was a vehicle mounted system and an image intensifier was huge... today a modern thermal scope is tiny and it has a ballistics computer built in and laser range finder and target marker etc etc.

    Regarding combinations of guidance system some combinations make sense... for instance a TV system might be fooled by camouflage... adding IR means paint or foliage no longer hide targets... but with IR camo being able to use a laser to mark the target means even the most heavily camouflaged target can be hit accurately.

    The EO seekers for Ugroza have moving target capability so a tank moving along a road can be locked and targeted by the system. A tank parked and hidden by camo can still be accurately hit by someone pointing a laser at the target... either on the ground or in the air (ie UAV) or the launch aircraft itself.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  RTN on Sun May 15, 2016 7:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:In fact you can go a step further... radar guidance can be passive ie anti radiation missile, or active, with active radar homing. Satellite inertial guidance is a common standard backup, and IIR and TV guidance will become common with QWIP technology.

    A DIRCM  for a fighter that can jam a Aim-9X, IRIS-T, ASRAAM, Python 5 which have IIR seekers does not exist. Missiles with IIR seekers which as of today, are literally impossible to guard against within their NEZ, especially when cued by HOBS capable helmet sights

    http://spie.org/newsroom/5614-ir-imaging-seekers-may-be-very-resistant-to-laser-jamming

    Our AIM 120D already features a multi mode RF seeker. Once fired it is a sure shot killer. It's undoubtedly the best BVRAAM in business.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 15, 2016 8:19 pm

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:In fact you can go a step further... radar guidance can be passive ie anti radiation missile, or active, with active radar homing. Satellite inertial guidance is a common standard backup, and IIR and TV guidance will become common with QWIP technology.

    A DIRCM  for a fighter that can jam a Aim-9X, IRIS-T, ASRAAM, Python 5 which have IIR seekers does not exist. Missiles with IIR seekers which as of today, are literally impossible to guard against within their NEZ, especially when cued by HOBS capable helmet sights

    http://spie.org/newsroom/5614-ir-imaging-seekers-may-be-very-resistant-to-laser-jamming

    Our AIM 120D already features a multi mode RF seeker. Once fired it is a sure shot killer. It's undoubtedly the best BVRAAM in business.

    "Once fired it is a sure shot killer." - Try not using this...funny line.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 16, 2016 1:23 pm

    A DIRCM  for a fighter that can jam a Aim-9X, IRIS-T, ASRAAM, Python 5 which have IIR seekers does not exist.

    That is a bold statement... laser dazzlers can be made to damage optical sensor cells in a human eye...what makes you think upping the power wont let them do the same to an IIR seeker sensor?

    Filters can be used to block laser radiation but at the end of the day for an IIR sensor to work it has to let in the IR frequencies it operates at... and there is a limit to specific frequencies that move well through the air... some frequencies are useless because they are absorbed by moisture in the air... the effective channels can easily be targeted by a laser.

    Missiles with IIR seekers which as of today, are literally impossible to guard against within their NEZ, especially when cued by HOBS capable helmet sights

    Again, not sure how you can say that... unless you work for a company that makes such systems.

    Whether an IIR guided missile is cued by a helmet mounted sight or by IRST or radar or simply pointing the whole aircraft at the target and getting a lock and firing (the latter is how F-22 pilots do it BTW... with the first three options open to a MiG-29 pilot from the 1980s) makes no difference as to how effective DIRCMs are...

    Our AIM 120D already features a multi mode RF seeker. Once fired it is a sure shot killer. It's undoubtedly the best BVRAAM in business.

    Wow a multi mode RF seeker... except the Soviets had passive radar homing missiles in the late 1970s... in the 1980s if the cold war had started the western air forces would have been in serious trouble... R-73 was vastly more capable than any model Sidewinder so the only safe way for NATO to fight would be at BVR with the ordinary Sparrow but with passive radar homing R-27s homing in on those Eagles marking Soviet aircraft for their SARH Sparrows would be sitting ducks not eagles.

    It would have been a slaughter.

    Now you are suggesting the AIM-120D is the best BVRAAM in the business... Is it better than the R-37M? What do you know about the R-37M to be able to say the AIM-120D is better?

    I know the AIM-120D does not have better range than the 300km+ range R-37M...

    Note regarding multi sensor missiles:



    Note the nose contains a wide band radar sensor for detecting enemy radar, while the bumps under the chin of the nose contain IIR sensors to detect IR targets on the ground.

    Note I should mention that multi sensor weapons are not new... the old SS-N-2 Styx anti ship missile came in active radar homing and simple IR guided versions for export... the domestic models had both systems. I seem to remember the Indians used the IR guided models to hit Pakistani oil storage tanks that had been heated by the sun during the day. they got hot enough to allow targeting at night with IR guided versions of the Styx... but that relied on the fact that they were very big... like a ship and they stood out in IR because the ground around them cooled down much faster when the sun went down than all that oil did... much the same as a ship will be a visible IR target in the open sea... either hotter or cooler.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 16, 2016 1:58 pm

    The P-120 Malakhit (NATO Codename: SS-N-9) was the first anti-ship missile to use two sensors:
    -Radar
    -IR

    And it was introduced in 1972 .... almost half a century ago!


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Sat May 28, 2016 7:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Point is that these seekers look for IR patterns rather than actual targets so a group of rocks on the ground could look like a vehicle or vice versa

    Will Tor get a fire & forget missile any time soon?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Rmf on Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:27 pm

    in kazahstan tor on kamaz truck

    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/06/02/tor_kamaz/

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:12 pm

    "Russia’s Tor (NATO reporting name: SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missile system will become fully robotized and be able to destroy targets autonomously, Deputy CEO and Air Defense Missile System Chief Designer at the Kupol Electromechanical Factory Iosif Drize told TASS. As the deputy CEO said, the Tor air defense missile system can work autonomously today but an operator is required in heavy jamming conditions.

    The TOR-M1 9A331-1 (NATO code : SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missile system is a mobile, integrated air defense system designed and manufacrured by the The Russian Defence Industry. The TOR-M1 features a turret with a top mounted target acquisition radar, and frontal tracking radar, with 8 ready to fire 9M330 or 9M331 missiles stored vertically between the two radars.

    With a weight of 167 kg, the 9M330 missile is 3.5 m long, carries a 15 kg warhead and has a peak speed of around Mach 2.8. Missiles can also be fired against surface targets. Each missile is a sealed round, stored in two groups of four. Engagement range is up to 12 km with minimum range varying between 100–2000 m, depending upon version and an effective altitude of 10–6000 m.

    "There are plans to increase the capabilities of the artificial intelligence so that the system can accomplish combat missions without an operator," Drize said. As the deputy CEO said, the enterprise is currently working on the Tor air defense missile system to boost its capabilities for destroying cruise missiles based on the stealth technology.

    "We are working on the system to make it able to reliably detect and destroy targets with low signature," he added. The Almaz-Antey Corporation said earlier that it had started working on an Arctic version of the Tor surface-to-air missile system.

    Moreover, the corporation may develop a shipborne version of the Tor air defense missile system. According to the Almaz-Antey Corporation, the first shipborne Tor air defense missile systems can be manufactured in 2018-2019."


    Source: http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/russian-made_tor_sa-15_gauntlet_air_defense_missile_system_will_become_fully_robotized_tass_10906165.html

    sepheronx
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:30 pm

    I always had a soft spot for Tor over the Pantsir. Glad to hear they are making them more automated as that is what I figured they would do to both Tor and Pantsir eventually in order to increase number of them without having to increase number of people to operate them.

    Interestingly enough, they didn't mention in your post the 9M338 missile. This is the latest and would probably replace all others in the future. hopefully.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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