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    F-35 Development and News Thread:

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    JohninMK
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:48 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    that guy is a legend santa
    Starting with today's meeting with the big bosses. Not the kind of meeting they wanted at Christmas, the time of generosity, to them, not to the Government!

    Incoming US president Donald Trump called the Lockheed Martin F-35 “very expensive” and vowed to bring down the stealth fighter’s costs after a 21 December meeting with the chief executives of Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

    “We’re going to get the costs down and we’re going to get it done beautifully,” Trump told a pool reporter after emerging from a meeting with Marillyn Hewson and Dennis Muilenburg.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/trump-vows-to-slash-f-35-costs-after-ceo-meeting-432659/
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:28 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Starting with today's meeting with the big bosses. Not the kind of meeting they wanted at Christmas, the time of generosity, to them, not to the Government!

    Incoming US president Donald Trump called the Lockheed Martin F-35 “very expensive” and vowed to bring down the stealth fighter’s costs after a 21 December meeting with the chief executives of Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

    “We’re going to get the costs down and we’re going to get it done beautifully,” Trump told a pool reporter after emerging from a meeting with Marillyn Hewson and Dennis Muilenburg.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/trump-vows-to-slash-f-35-costs-after-ceo-meeting-432659/

    Trump's onto something here. F-35 is a great plane and all. Sure, I believe F-35B is a great choice for the USMC. But it should be more of a limited niche strike fighter when it comes to the USAF (F-35A). The planned procurement numbers for USAF are insane, too many planes and too expensive. An F/A-18E/F can do most of the jobs the F-35A will be tasked to do, i.e. missions that will require external loads (and thus kiss LO bye bye).



    It would make more sense to keep the F-15E going as basically a cheap tactical bomb truck, upgrade a number of F-15C/D with AESA needed in CONUS with ANG. Then replace every single F-16C/D with Super Bugs and token F-35A squadrons. The latter can be kept abroad (USAFE, USAFJ, etc.) for strike missions and interventions, where the LO characteristics will be needed. But seriously more than 500-600 F-35A in USAF service shouldn't be needed.

    USN already operates Super Bugs, so their planned F-35C numbers are pretty much correct and realistic.
    Same for the USMC's need for F-35B and some F-35C (Hornet and Harrier replacement).

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:42 pm

    Agree but I seriously doubt that the USAF would ever take a Navy plane. Upgrade the F-15E yes, F-18, never.
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:59 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Agree but I seriously doubt that the USAF would ever take a Navy plane. Upgrade the F-15E yes, F-18, never.

    They took the F-4, I bet Trump and Mad Dog can make 'em take the Super Bug. Unless Boeing pitches some Eagle variant.
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:06 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Agree but I seriously doubt that the USAF would ever take a Navy plane. Upgrade the F-15E yes, F-18, never.

    They took the F-4, I bet Trump and Mad Dog can make 'em take the Super Bug. Unless Boeing pitches some Eagle variant.

    I smell revival of F-15SE

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:18 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Agree but I seriously doubt that the USAF would ever take a Navy plane. Upgrade the F-15E yes, F-18, never.

    They took the F-4, I bet Trump and Mad Dog can make 'em take the Super Bug. Unless Boeing pitches some Eagle variant.

    I smell revival of F-15SE
    Either way the Boeing sales team is scenting blood!
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:19 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Agree but I seriously doubt that the USAF would ever take a Navy plane. Upgrade the F-15E yes, F-18, never.

    They took the F-4, I bet Trump and Mad Dog can make 'em take the Super Bug. Unless Boeing pitches some Eagle variant.

    I smell revival of F-15SE

    I smell F-18SH (Shadow/Silent Hornet).
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:22 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Agree but I seriously doubt that the USAF would ever take a Navy plane. Upgrade the F-15E yes, F-18, never.

    They took the F-4, I bet Trump and Mad Dog can make 'em take the Super Bug. Unless Boeing pitches some Eagle variant.

    I smell revival of F-15SE

    I smell F-18SH (Shadow/Silent Hornet).

    Has been in plants for a while due to delayed F-35 deployment, especially after they decided to buy more Growlers.... so yeah it is not out of the question that F-18SH can happen.
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  OminousSpudd on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:26 pm

    I would disagree with the F-35 being a great aircraft, for there is nothing that it does that another aircraft could not do better, including sensor fusion and data-linking, and that's assuming that it would work reliably in the first place.

    It's structural design alone is inherently its biggest flaw.
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:29 am

    Its critical flaw is trying to be a VSTOL aircraft... if you removed that requirement you would basically have a stealthy F-16... much like the F-22 is supposed to be a stealthy F-15.

    the amusing thing about really expensive things is that when you cut numbers you actually make them even more expensive...

    This should be amusing.


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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:19 am

    GarryB wrote:Its critical flaw is trying to be a VSTOL aircraft... if you removed that requirement you would basically have a stealthy F-16... much like the F-22 is supposed to be a stealthy F-15.

    the amusing thing about really expensive things is that when you cut numbers you actually make them even more expensive...

    This should be amusing.

    True. But decreasing procurement numbers (from 1.3k to 0.5k) saves up on future operating & maintenance costs vis a vis the ones for a Super Bug or Silent Eagle. My gut feeling is that the Lightning II will require lots of work on the ground, probably much more than known quantities like the previous fighters.

    I agree that the F-35B is the perfect Harrier replacement and the F-35A can take some work off the Viper when it comes to first strike utilizing LO. And that's where its utility ends. All the ''uber'' sensor fusion implemented on it can be just as well applied on Eagles, Vipers or Super Bugs.

    That said, USAF can go in with a three-tier fighter mode. 

    Tier-1: F-22A, F-35A (...)
    Tier-2: F-15SE or F/A-18E/F (multirole, all-round platform) <-- all new-builds
    Tier-3: F-15E (upgraded for tac strike), A-10 (CAS) and F-15C/D with AESA (for ANG, back home) <-- all upgrades

    This means all Vipers have to go by the late '20s.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:28 pm

    Another, down like a lead balloon in the Pentagon, update from Gilmore, his last, these are the first and last paras of another long article. Doubt we will read more of these once he's gone, they get more embarrassing as time goes on.

    Just look at the astonishing quantities made before it gets to the initial operational test and evaluation IOT&E starting in 2018/9. How about 490 delivered with a probable 452 ordered and on the way. This is overlapping R&D and production gone crazy. If only the upgrade to full Block 3F capability was as simple and cheap as a software update It isn't, it involves serious hardware and software plus airframe upgrades. Nightmare down the line with multi versions. Then there is the operationally critical maintenance system ALIS, another pit of missing features. There is a huge cost pre-loaded in there. If I was an overseas customer I'd be pretty nervous. If I was a potential adversary I might be hard pressed not to describe the product as 'brilliant', with a silent 'for me'.

    In his last scathing report on the F-35, outgoing top Pentagon weapon tester Michael Gilmore gave early 2019 as an optimistic target date for initial operational test and evaluation. Even as the F-35 Joint Programme Office plans to reduce time in developmental testing in order to move ahead with IOT&E, Gilmore warns that hundreds of deficiencies will push full combat tests to late 2018 or early 2019 at the earliest.

    .................................................. .....................

    By continuing their pursuit of a block buy for lots 12 through 14 before completing IOT&E, Gilmore argues the JPO is flouting the “fly before you buy” approach. The block buy would deliver 452 aircraft in addition to the 490 procured under lots 1 through 11, a hefty procurement before full-rate production.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...s-to-2-433177/
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:18 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Another, down like a lead balloon in the Pentagon, update from Gilmore, his last, these are the first and last paras of another long article. Doubt we will read more of these once he's gone, they get more embarrassing as time goes on.

    Just look at the astonishing quantities made before it gets to the initial operational test and evaluation IOT&E starting in 2018/9. How about 490 delivered with a probable 452 ordered and on the way. This is overlapping R&D and production gone crazy. If only the upgrade to full Block 3F capability was as simple and cheap as a software update It isn't, it involves serious hardware and software plus airframe upgrades. Nightmare down the line with multi versions. Then there is the operationally critical maintenance system ALIS, another pit of missing features. There is a huge cost pre-loaded in there. If I was an overseas customer I'd be pretty nervous. If I was a potential adversary I might be hard pressed not to describe the product as 'brilliant', with a silent 'for me'.

    In his last scathing report on the F-35, outgoing top Pentagon weapon tester Michael Gilmore gave early 2019 as an optimistic target date for initial operational test and evaluation. Even as the F-35 Joint Programme Office plans to reduce time in developmental testing in order to move ahead with IOT&E, Gilmore warns that hundreds of deficiencies will push full combat tests to late 2018 or early 2019 at the earliest.

    .................................................. .....................

    By continuing their pursuit of a block buy for lots 12 through 14 before completing IOT&E, Gilmore argues the JPO is flouting the “fly before you buy” approach. The block buy would deliver 452 aircraft in addition to the 490 procured under lots 1 through 11, a hefty procurement before full-rate production.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...s-to-2-433177/

    The delays, stupidity and retardation with this program is absolutely appalling. Trump needs to end this.

    PS. This is McCain territory jobs program.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:38 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    The delays, stupidity and retardation with this program is absolutely appalling. Trump needs to end this.

    PS. This is McCain territory jobs program.
    Not just McCain, its estimated that at least 100 of then on Capital Hill have F-35 in their area. This was a very cleverly spread program.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:58 am

    Not to mention the risks to the networks covering the parking and deployment areas of the F-35. If the Russians can influence the US election, getting at a cable on an airbase should be a piece of piss Smile

    Just when you thought the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter team had covered every base to protect the most expensive weapons program in world history, the US Air Force is now calling all hands on deck to buttress the F-35 from cyber threats.

    "Threats are changing, and this is not the environment we grew up in," Peter Kim, Chief Information Officer at USAF said recently. The air force, like other military branches, has considered IT systems the primary arena for implementing cybersecurity measures. As the program develops, Kim noted that cyberspace needs to be better secured, since many of the F-35’s weapons systems hinge on functioning computer networks.

    Specifically, Kim points to the F-35’s sensor-fusion capabilities. A sensor fusion "gathers information from the aircraft’s multiple onboard sensors to create a single integrated picture of the battlefield," per Lockheed Martin, the jet’s manufacturer. The company lists the sensor fusion second on the list of "six capabilities only possible in the world’s most advanced fighter jet."

    Given the seemingly endless issues that continue to ground the F-35, one wonders how the plane’s architects did not consider that cyber-invasions might compromise 'mission assurance.' Lockheed Martin specifically indicated that information obtained via sensors is shared with the rest of the fleet through "secure datalinks."

    The US Air Force may be emphasizing cyber-related measures, due to the complexity of the F-35. A real-time virtual-reality display is built into the pilot’s helmet. The jet’s 'nerve center,' or Autonomic Logistics Information System, provides ongoing maintenance assistance and equips pilots with mission-planning capability. The F-35’s Electro-Optical Targeting System uses lasers for reconnaissance purposes and to deliver laser- and GPS-guided missiles and weapons. By penetrating even just one weapon system on the plane, the F-35 network could be thrown into jeopardy in an instant.

    “How do we start building resiliency? When something touches a weapons system, it will touch a network," Kim said.

    One tactic the USAF has taken to bolster cyber defense is to activate "cyber-squadron" pilot programs. The service dedicates teams at airbases around the world to conduct cyber-patrol missions of key networks, according to Kim.

    The overarching aim is to "operationalize" with built-in cybersecurity technologies to "support the combatant commander more than we ever have in the past," said Col. Robert Cole, director at the air force "Cyber Forward" program.


    https://sputniknews.com/military/201701201049795790-pentagon-pursuit-enhanced-f35-cyber/
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:30 pm

    "We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201701311050176643-trump-cut-millions-f35-program/


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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:40 pm

    George1 wrote:
    "We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201701311050176643-trump-cut-millions-f35-program/

    So 6,7ish million per bort? Not bad...
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Godric on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:44 pm

    George1 wrote:
    "We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201701311050176643-trump-cut-millions-f35-program/

    $600 million from a program expected to cost over $1.5 trillion is akin to saving $1 on a $3,000 Tux

    chicken feed
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  nomadski on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:29 pm

    I am so glad that yanks are spending ( have to spend ) enormous sums on fighter aircraft . How many soldiers did they loose in Iraq before running away and commiting mass suicide like lemmings ? A tiny 4000 ! How many pilots can they loose before loosing the psychological battle ? My guess . Forty or so . Why ? Because like Iraq , it is not their war . Alternatives for college graduate in America far better than G I. No need to risk life . Will not risk life . Hence greatest weakness in their air war . Have to build super survivable planes . Expensive . To convince a " pilot " to get in plane . Must be super plane . Like super man . How many pilot Russia or Iran can loose without loosing the psychological battle ? Hundreds or thousands . Why ? Because they are defending their children . So for us must be practical planes . Those that our pilots will kill and die in . At modest cost . Great in number . Theirs is superman cars and planes . Flying in orbit . Never seeing the enemy . Living forever .
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:05 pm

    Godric wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    "We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201701311050176643-trump-cut-millions-f35-program/

    $600 million from a program expected to cost over $1.5 trillion is akin to saving $1 on a $3,000 Tux

    chicken feed

    Its 600mil $ for current order of 90 borts. Not overall.
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:48 am

    Its 600mil $ for current order of 90 borts. Not overall.

    But that is not the full price of those aircraft...

    They say they saved 600 mil with the current order of 90 aircraft... that does not mean they were buying 90 aircraft for a total of 600 million... that would make them just over 6.5 million each aircraft.

    the likely penalties and reduced production numbers probably means each plane just got more expensive by about 20 million per aircraft... but by reducing this order they shaved 600 million off the order cost.

    It is like promising to buy 100 bombers and so the price is set at 200 million per aircraft... but then the price starts increasing so the customer says they only want 50. The maker has to recover their costs in fewer airframes so the price jumps to 350 million per aircraft.

    The original 100 bombers would be 20 billion at 200 million each, but by reducing the overall numbers to 50 but increasing the price to 350 million each results in the cost becoming 17.5 billion. Yeah... you save 2.5 billion dollars but you only get half as many aircraft...

    You can spin that to mean operational costs will be half but they wont because maintaining half as many aircraft will cost more than trying to operate twice as many...


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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:49 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Its 600mil $ for current order of 90 borts. Not overall.

    But that is not the full price of those aircraft...

    They say they saved 600 mil with the current order of 90 aircraft... that does not mean they were buying 90 aircraft for a total of 600 million... that would make them just over 6.5 million each aircraft.

    the likely penalties and reduced production numbers probably means each plane just got more expensive by about 20 million per aircraft... but by reducing this order they shaved 600 million off the order cost.

    It is like promising to buy 100 bombers and so the price is set at 200 million per aircraft... but then the price starts increasing so the customer says they only want 50. The maker has to recover their costs in fewer airframes so the price jumps to 350 million per aircraft.

    The original 100 bombers would be 20 billion at 200 million each, but by reducing the overall numbers to 50 but increasing the price to 350 million each results in the cost becoming 17.5 billion.  Yeah... you save 2.5 billion dollars but you only get half as many aircraft...

    You can spin that to mean operational costs will be half but they wont because maintaining half as many aircraft will cost more than trying to operate twice as many...

    I just said the save of 600mil was achieved on order of 90 borts... not sure where did you get something else from my post Smile
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:30 am

    F-35A at the exercise "Red Flag": through 15 to 1 in favor of them in aerial combat with the "aggressors"

    According to David Cenciotti in his blog "The Aviationist ', the latest drill fifth generation fighter Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II US Air Force for the first time took part in the bilateral Air Force exercise" Red Flag 17-01 "in Nevada and as of February 3, 2017 year announced an impressive score of 15 to 1 in his favor in mock battles with fighters Lockheed Martin F-16 parts of "aggressors".

    Combat units on fighter F-35A for the first time involved in the exercise series "Red Flag". In these exercises "Red Flag 17-01", launched on January 23 Nellis AFB in Nevada and its ranges, involving fighter F-35A from the 388 th and 419 th Fighter Wing airbase Hill (Utah). During the eight days of flight during the exercise involved 13 fighter F-35A made 110 sorties, and January 30 was carried out 18 missions - first group of ten aircraft, and after his return - again a group of eight aircraft. During the exercise, no one scheduled flight F-35A was canceled for technical reasons, and the overall level of technical readiness of these aircraft was 92%, compared to the willingness of 70 to 85% of the previous generation fighter in the US Air Force.

    The greatest attention is attracted by the results of mock battles with F-35A denotes enemy fighters F-16 parts of "aggressors". It is stated that the ratio of "downed" in these battles was 15 to 1 in favor of the F-35A. At the same time it noted that the F-35A achieved this result, acting in cooperation with the fighter Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor, denotes a cover for F-35A in solving their problems. The contribution of F-22A to the success of F-35A aircraft in the last fights remains unclear. At the same time it is noted that the high situational awareness of pilots F-35A due to the presence in their airplanes variety of advanced lighting situation and the mutual exchange of data systems makes it possible to avoid interception by ground or air assets enemy air defenses and successfully resist these forces.



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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  FichtL_WichtL on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:07 pm


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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:28 am

    Just spent an hour and a half reading through this, the latest analysis of the F-35 based mainly on the 2016 report by Gilmore's team. The F-35 still has a long way to go before it will be ready for combat. That was the parting message of Dr. Michael Gilmore, the now-retired Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, in his last annual report.

    This is the marketing and user self justification stripped away. To any potential operator of the aircraft it will make very very sobering reading. This is a unique project, no-one will ever do this again.

    http://www.pogo.org/straus/issues/weapons/2017/f35-continues-to-stumble.html

    If you can bear reading the actual report, all 62 pages, this is where you find it.

    http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2016/pdf/dod/2016f35jsf.pdf

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