2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3

GarryB wrote:The real problem for OSA is that even with upgraded radars, their locations could be rapidly pinpointed by Turkish aircraft operating in Turkish airspace which would then mean they could be directly targeted and taken out when they run out of missiles.

That article in Russian suggests that OSA and all their other systems except BUK and Pantsir were outranged by drones with air launched weapons, but using them against drones would not be cost effective.

As they mentioned the ideal solution is the new SOSNA/Pine system being introduced by the Russian military that does not use radar and has a 10km range in the current model but is totally passive and in later longer ranged models is still relatively cheap to use and hard to deal with out to extended range.

Claiming the NK forces couldn't deal with drones is amusing... Saudi Arabia has Patriot and all sorts of flash western air defence equipment and they can't even detect drone attacks let alone shoot down 62 drones like the NK forces seem to have.

And Saudi Arabia doesn't need to worry about HATO countries helping their enemy with modern C4IR...

Saying NK lost because they didn't have enough OSA is like saying Serbia lost Kosovo because they didn't have more modern fighter planes...

Medo wrote:Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude. Osa could see and engage upo to 5 km in altitude and some drones fly higher than that, like Bayraktar. Sosna have the same altitude limitation of 5 km, so will have the same problem as Osa. But on the other hand, Sosna is fully integrated in IADS to share situational picture and will have support of ELINT and ECM complexes and jammers, which support drones will have no effect on Sosna.

Mindstorm wrote:

Medo wrote:Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude. Osa could see and engage upo to 5 km in altitude and some drones fly higher than that, like Bayraktar. Sosna have the same altitude limitation of 5 km, so will have the same problem as Osa. But on the other hand, Sosna is fully integrated in IADS to share situational picture and will have support of ELINT and ECM complexes and jammers, which support drones will have no effect on Sosna.

Exact Medo.


In Arksath air defense forces was operative a low number of old Оса -9K33- and an about equal number of Оса-АКМ -9K33M3-.

The first models failed to down almost any UAV (managing to down only some unamanned conversion of Ан-2 with ФАБ-250 bombs on board) while the majority of downed Azeri UAVs was executed by the 10-11 Оса-АКМ ,from a batch of 35 Оса-АКМ acquired by Armenia in a deal for 27 ml dollars.


As you have rightly observed the Оса-АКМ has an altitude limit of about 5000-5500 metes that allow to down UAVs in the class of TB2 ,when operated in a cautious way, only when placed in ambush on promontory and raised terrain - as happened in the instances of the Hermes-300  and Byraktars downed-

Another main limit was the single target engaged, in the latest conflict the Оса-АКМ operators had usually several UAV within theirs engagement footprint but after having engaged one it was forced to immediately scout out because the system would also be incapable to down eventual air delivered ammunitions against it.

Сосна is not the successor of Оса but instead of Стрела-10 on a totally new level; its role is the coverage of ground forces on march at very low altitude completely undetectable by enemy SIGINT and not degradable by any kind of EW sytem and to organize totally undetectable ambushs for enemy helicopters and UAVs attempting to use terrain masking to close with the ground formations.

The successors of Оса in ground forces formation is Тор in its varous iterations and also here the difference is simple crushing even taking into account old models.

Self-proclaimed Arksath Republic forces actually with those tiny and vastly outdated air defenses achieved an huge loss exchange advantage in mere resource and economical terms against enemy air systems , but there was too much resource gap against the entire Azerbaijan's forces with Turkey support ,even more taking into account that Armenian divisions remained completely motioneless in theirs positions and only a very scarce material support was provided gererally by Armenia.  

I repeat with resources in air defense and EW systems equal to even one quarter ,may be even one fifth, of what Azerbaijan has invested in UAVs the latter would have run out of drones within the second week of conflict.

kvs wrote:n.

2. Prepare for another type of war, possibly pulling Western powers in the fray in order to hurt Russia non-militarily, something he had already partially done with its protection money to BP and ENI.

Tsavo Lion wrote:KoTeMoRe: pl. spell out SNL, TSK & all other non-commonly used abbreviations u decide to post in the future, thx in advance!
https://ria.ru/20201129/gruz-1586865654.html

Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude.

NYT wrote:Down the road from the Stepanakert military college now housing the Russian command, Vladik Khachatryan, 67, an ethnic Armenian, said there was a rumor going around Stepanakert that gave him hope for the future.

“Soon, we will get Russian passports,” he said. “We won’t be able to survive without Russia.”

Across from the Stepanakert market, in Room 6 of Nver Mikaelyan’s hotel, a maroon bloodstain still covered the bedsheets more than a week after the war’s end. The boxers and towels of the room’s last guests hung on the headboards, pierced by shrapnel from the Azerbaijani bomb that hit in October.

Echoing other ethnic Armenians in the area, Mr. Mikaelyan said he saw one clear path to a sustainable peace: Nagorno-Karabakh becoming part of Russia. The idea seems far-fetched, but it has been floated by political figures in Russia and Nagorno-Karabakh over the years, though not by Mr. Putin.

“What else is to be done?” Mr. Mikaelyan asked, after taking another look at the blown-out hotel room door, the TV ripped off the wall, the trails of blood still stuck to the third floor. “The European Union is doing nothing. The Americans are doing nothing.”

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/world/europe/nagorno-karabakh-putin-armenia-azerbaijan.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

NYT wrote:Down the road from the Stepanakert military college now housing the Russian command, Vladik Khachatryan, 67, an ethnic Armenian, said there was a rumor going around Stepanakert that gave him hope for the future.

“Soon, we will get Russian passports,” he said. “We won’t be able to survive without Russia.”

Across from the Stepanakert market, in Room 6 of Nver Mikaelyan’s hotel, a maroon bloodstain still covered the bedsheets more than a week after the war’s end. The boxers and towels of the room’s last guests hung on the headboards, pierced by shrapnel from the Azerbaijani bomb that hit in October.

Echoing other ethnic Armenians in the area, Mr. Mikaelyan said he saw one clear path to a sustainable peace: Nagorno-Karabakh becoming part of Russia. The idea seems far-fetched, but it has been floated by political figures in Russia and Nagorno-Karabakh over the years, though not by Mr. Putin.

“What else is to be done?” Mr. Mikaelyan asked, after taking another look at the blown-out hotel room door, the TV ripped off the wall, the trails of blood still stuck to the third floor. “The European Union is doing nothing. The Americans are doing nothing.”

Armianskiy Oblast uploading...

maybe in the future the  Russian autonomous republic of navgorno kharabak will be the only armenian state existing, especially if Armenians choose so well their leaders

Tsavo Lion wrote:After that, Armenians in Georgia will also want to get RF passports, so they better start polishing their Russian language skills. 
Eventually, & ideally, Georgia & Armenia could/should become part of RF as autonomies.

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How China gains from Armenia-Azerbaijan war

Tsavo Lion wrote:

 Armenia-Azerbaijan: 26 years later  In today's world, only power decides everything

How China gains from Armenia-Azerbaijan war