Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6

kvs wrote:The whole "debate" is moronic.   As if the people who wrote the book (manual, whatever; it was not Americans or NATzO members)
on the stealth EM applied mathematics cannot conduct simulations using those equations to test any design they produce.
Somehow those equations are good enough when Americans use them, but become worthless when their authors use them.
NATzO fanbois are certifiable retards or frothing at the mouth haters.

I have a theory for why the yankees just spew with hate for the su 57. Its because the F-22 is seen as their trophy for winning the cold war. So Russia isn't supposed to have one. Its ok if the Chinese have one. They don't hate the J-20 at all really.

The F-22 was discontinued because the Soviets went away.

The su 57 symbolizes Russia's rebirth.

They probably also don't think China can do anything but copy so they likely think most of the stuff on the J-20 looks 5th gen but inside it will be all 4th gen and not even 4+gen...

Whether they are right or not could be argued either way, but even if it is not 5th gen, those 5th gen fighters the US has have not really turned out to be that great anyway... and certainly are so expensive as to be unaffordable in numbers that mean anything.

The J-20 is hyped by western press which drives me nuts. It is a flagrant collection of copied systems. The fighter itself looks like a mig 1.42 modified with almost identical western stealth features. I remember in 2015 the Chinese were asking to work with russian firms to develop an AESA radar for the fighter. And just a couple years later when it came out they were saying it had a superior AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.

And dont get me started on their new air to air missiles. One thing I notice that China has been doing lately is trying to one-up Russia. Remember when images from videos showed an su-35 firing an r-37m and su-57s carrying new r-77ms? China was showing some new missiles a couple days before. Russia comes out with new information about the product 30? Just a couple days before that China says development on ws-15 is ahead of schedule. Seen it multiple times when any news comes out about Russian development.

Russia should not be selling anything to China, especially not the su-57. They are not even really true allies. Communist China would gladly backstab anyone for what they would see as sensible reasons.

TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by western press which drives me nuts. It is a flagrant collection of copied systems. The fighter itself looks like a mig 1.42 modified with almost identical western stealth features. I remember in 2015 the Chinese were asking to work with russian firms to develop an AESA radar for the fighter. And just a couple years later when it came out they were saying it had a superior AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.

And dont get me started on their new air to air missiles. One thing I notice that China has been doing lately is trying to one-up Russia. Remember when images from videos showed an su-35 firing an r-37m and su-57s carrying new r-77ms? China was showing some new missiles a couple days before. Russia comes out with new information about the product 30? Just a couple days before that China says development on ws-15 is ahead of schedule. Seen it multiple times when any news comes out about Russian development.

Russia should not be selling anything to China, especially not the su-57. They are not even really true allies. Communist China would gladly backstab anyone for what they would see as sensible reasons.

I just made a post about the western defense media in general (https://www.russiadefence.net/t8342-the-western-defense-media)   and the J-20 featured in it. I was thinking the exact same thing. The J-20 is hyped just as a means of cutting down the su 57. I wish we could have good objective and respectful discussion about all the fighters. But we cant. Because the US is so partisan and full of hate for the su 57.

Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42

And yeah, their so called AESA is heavily questionable.

Add to that, if Indian mod is to be trusted, they spotted a j-20 near Tibet India border from a Su-30MKI (Bars M) from 180km bringing the j-20's stealth to heavy speculation.

J-20 is a piece of shit like nearly everything China produces. That's no secret. Hence why poor ass African nations are more interested in the Chinese equipment. Asian nations who buy Chinese equipment are buying equipment that is roughly half Chinese and the rest major components are from either Russia or Europe

PeregrineFalcon wrote:Very nice chanel, although the video you linked is not very helpful for our discussion [yours and mine], his other video actually is  

Look at 11:15

Yes we agree. The video I linked talked about the beneficial interaction of the canard to the wing on a close coupled layout.

I don't think they had stability on their mind because anhedral angle is used for the opposite reason [unlike dihedral angle],

It can be both, depending on the position of the plane re. the CoG. If the first is higher than the second, the anhedral will be actually stabilising. But probably your theory below is better.

but maybe they wanted to direct canard vortex closer to the main wing when the plane is at higher AoA for increased maneuverability. If the canard tips vere at the same plane as the canard root, the vortex interaction with the main wing would most probably be absent at desired level.
When the flow above the main wing has begun to experience turbulence, the vortex core from the canard will hit the flow above the wing and make it re-streamline.

Yes, close coupled canards frequently have the tips of the foreplane lifted upwards. The Eurofighter seems to me a less optimized design re. for instance Rafale, but maybe the drag requirements / supersonic flight requirements as you say were the reason for the long coupled canards and their consequences.

Anyway, I think that the PAK FA solution is the most "elegant" one regarding performance and also RCS!

It does not have the vortexes of close coupled canards but they probably compensated for that with the small LERX right besides the LEVCONs, in general I think the layout of the PAK-FA is very smart and a very good compromise.

Backman wrote:I just made a post about the western defense media in general (https://www.russiadefence.net/t8342-the-western-defense-media) and the J-20 featured in it. I was thinking the exact same thing. The J-20 is hyped just as a means of cutting down the su 57. I wish we could have good objective and respectful discussion about all the fighters. But we cant. Because the US is so partisan and full of hate for the su 57.

Not to be dismissive of Chinese, since they are progressing by leaps and bounds and will certainly come at the forefront in short to medium term, but the J-20 is a first attempt of a top of the line fighter while the Su-57 has superior design solutions compared to US 5G fighters and will force the design of new platforms able to compete in the crucial range / speed / payload characteristics. Add to that the diverging approaches to VLO among others, and you have the perfect receipt for denial and bashing from the US side.

I have read this is the original nr. 1 that crashed last year, not the one to be delivered in 2020...

Doubt there's going to be any Su-57 production jet delivered this year.

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42

And yeah, their so called AESA is heavily questionable.

Add to that, if Indian mod is to be trusted, they spotted a j-20 near Tibet India border from a Su-30MKI (Bars M) from 180km bringing the j-20's stealth to heavy speculation.

J-20 is a piece of shit like nearly everything China produces.  That's no secret.  Hence why poor ass African nations are more interested in the Chinese equipment. Asian nations who buy Chinese equipment are buying equipment that is roughly half Chinese and the rest major components are from either Russia or Europe

J-20 is no joke. It's said to be the most capable fighter jet in the world right now. DSI is something not even Russians and Europeans can do. It's basically a twin engined F-35 with better aerodynamics.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42

And yeah, their so called AESA is heavily questionable.

Add to that, if Indian mod is to be trusted, they spotted a j-20 near Tibet India border from a Su-30MKI (Bars M) from 180km bringing the j-20's stealth to heavy speculation.

J-20 is a piece of shit like nearly everything China produces.  That's no secret.  Hence why poor ass African nations are more interested in the Chinese equipment. Asian nations who buy Chinese equipment are buying equipment that is roughly half Chinese and the rest major components are from either Russia or Europe

J-20 is no joke. It's said to be the most capable fighter jet in the world right now. DSI is something not even Russians and Europeans can do. It's basically a twin engined F-35 with better aerodynamics.

Common man. You can defend the J-20's strong points. That's fine. But to say it's "the most capable fighter in the world right now" is just asking to get flogged.

My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

Can someone enlighten me on what is so great about non variable intakes in a jet that's supposed to fly fast and at high altitude ?

TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by western press which drives me nuts. It is a flagrant collection of copied systems. The fighter itself looks like a mig 1.42 modified with almost identical western stealth features. I remember in 2015 the Chinese were asking to work with russian firms to develop an AESA radar for the fighter. And just a couple years later when it came out they were saying it had a superior AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.

And dont get me started on their new air to air missiles. One thing I notice that China has been doing lately is trying to one-up Russia. Remember when images from videos showed an su-35 firing an r-37m and su-57s carrying new r-77ms? China was showing some new missiles a couple days before. Russia comes out with new information about the product 30? Just a couple days before that China says development on ws-15 is ahead of schedule. Seen it multiple times when any news comes out about Russian development.

Russia should not be selling anything to China, especially not the su-57. They are not even really true allies. Communist China would gladly backstab anyone for what they would see as sensible reasons.

I would not downrate the Chinese AESA radar capabilities. The Chinese are one of the leaders in telecommunications today and a modern radar isn't all that different from a cellphone tower.
The Chinese also have a more advanced semiconductor manufacturing industry than Russia. A decade or two ago things might have been different but not today.
Actually I expect the Chinese semiconductor industry to even beat the US semiconductor industry in 5 years time.

It is true that the J-20 looks like a MiG 1.42 though. With regards to their air to air missiles, since they haven't been proven in combat your guess is as good as mine.
They did have access to Israeli missiles at one point though so not all of it must be shit. The Israelis are one of the few countries which does a lot of air combat.

With regards to China or backstabbing, or whatever, you have to remember that after the USSR crumbled the Chinese actually made a deal with Russia to solve the longstanding border issues. There was minimal exchange of land to China (perhaps a couple of small river islands). Compare that with what HATO made with both former Warsaw Pact nations and even former USSR republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by western press which drives me nuts. It is a flagrant collection of copied systems. The fighter itself looks like a mig 1.42 modified with almost identical western stealth features. I remember in 2015 the Chinese were asking to work with russian firms to develop an AESA radar for the fighter. And just a couple years later when it came out they were saying it had a superior AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.

And dont get me started on their new air to air missiles. One thing I notice that China has been doing lately is trying to one-up Russia. Remember when images from videos showed an su-35 firing an r-37m and su-57s carrying new r-77ms? China was showing some new missiles a couple days before. Russia comes out with new information about the product 30? Just a couple days before that China says development on ws-15 is ahead of schedule. Seen it multiple times when any news comes out about Russian development.

Russia should not be selling anything to China, especially not the su-57. They are not even really true allies. Communist China would gladly backstab anyone for what they would see as sensible reasons.

I would not downrate the Chinese AESA radar capabilities. The Chinese are one of the leaders in telecommunications today and a modern radar isn't all that different from a cellphone tower.
The Chinese also have a more advanced semiconductor manufacturing industry than Russia. A decade or two ago things might have been different but not today.
Actually I expect the Chinese semiconductor industry to even beat the US semiconductor industry in 5 years time.

It is true that the J-20 looks like a MiG 1.42 though. With regards to their air to air missiles, since they haven't been proven in combat your guess is as good as mine.
They did have access to Israeli missiles at one point though so not all of it must be shit. The Israelis are one of the few countries which does a lot of air combat.

With regards to China or backstabbing, or whatever, you have to remember that after the USSR crumbled the Chinese actually made a deal with Russia to solve the longstanding border issues. There was minimal exchange of land to China (perhaps a couple of small river islands). Compare that with what HATO made with both former Warsaw Pact nations and even former USSR republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.

Not to defend the chinese, but its downright moronic on american levels to claim that the j-20 is a copy of the MiG 1.44. In what way? having canards? Their fuselages
look nothing alike. By that logic F-15 is a complete monkey see monkey do level copy of the MiG-25. 2 rudders, 2 intakes, 2 engines. hurrrrr. What about EF and rafale? What about Su-57 and YF-23?

J-20 is what you get when you pay MiG for an aircraft design for a supersonic stealth fighter...

Can someone enlighten me on what is so great about non variable intakes in a jet that's supposed to fly fast and at high altitude ?

The F-16 can't fly faster than Mach 2.0 because it has a fixed air intake and it chokes on too much air going in to the engine at higher flight speeds.

DSI means lighter simpler air intakes but you would need to do a lot of testing... I would suspect they are not as flexible as current air intakes for high supersonic aircraft.

It's basically a twin engined F-35 with better aerodynamics.

So an overpriced dog that likely wont break the sound barrier except just before impact with the ground ...

Doubt there's going to be any Su-57 production jet delivered this year.

Flamebait?

I would not downrate the Chinese AESA radar capabilities. The Chinese are one of the leaders in telecommunications today and a modern radar isn't all that different from a cellphone tower.
The Chinese also have a more advanced semiconductor manufacturing industry than Russia. A decade or two ago things might have been different but not today.
Actually I expect the Chinese semiconductor industry to even beat the US semiconductor industry in 5 years time.

China has 5g network technology, but does that mean Chinese AESA radars are better than anything America makes too, because the US doesn't have 5g network technology yet... not ready for production it seems... Does it mean Chinese nuclear power stations are better than Russian ones?

By that logic F-15 is a complete monkey see monkey do level copy of the MiG-25. 2 rudders, 2 intakes, 2 engines. hurrrrr. What about EF and rafale? What about Su-57 and YF-23?

The F-15 is a copy of the MiG-25... the F-15 is what they thought the MiG-25 was supposed to be, and it looks nothing like any previous US fighters.

Chinese companies often buy aircraft designs from Russian companies... Kamov helped them with a few helicopter designs too.

No, the j-20 isn't really capable. The Su-30 is more than a match for it.

As for the AESA radar, we don't know what modules they use.  5G t/r modules aren't the same so no, I don't count those either.

But knowing history and even recent, Chinese radar systems are considered meh, by the nation's who used it.  Also, it's the Powersupply from the jet engines to provide the necessary power to onboard electronics. And it's well known Chinese jet engines are questionable at best hence why they still use Russian engines for most part and their export jets do as well. And radar cannot operate at its potential if it isn't getting the power behind it. It is also simple physics too.

China is good at making things look flashy. But it's usually shit in performance and use. That's with its electronics down to it's construction industry.

Hole wrote:

I am not seeing the nozzles... considering the Su-57 shown at Army had the serrated ones, I am considering the possibility that the series models may make employ of them despite izd. 30 not being ready... why not?

[quote="limb"]

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by or AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.
republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.

Not to defend the chinese, but its downright moronic on american levels to claim that the j-20 is a copy of the MiG 1.44. In what way? having canards? Their fuselages
look nothing alike. By that logic F-15 is a complete monkey see monkey do level copy of the MiG-25. 2 rudders, 2 intakes, 2 engines. hurrrrr. What about EF and rafale? What about Su-57 and YF-23?

The US state dept originally implied that the J-20 was a copy of the Mig 1.44. But then the Western defense media realized that this gives Russia too much credit. So now they all claim its a copy of the F-22. The shape of the front and canopy does look Lockheed. But the jet itself isn't anything close to what the US has produced.

Imo the Russians did borrow some ideas from the YF-23. But we never hear that copy accusation from the Yankees. Because that might mean the su 57 is a good aircraft. And it would also expose their lies about the alleged issues with the su 57 canopy and intakes. Because the YF-23 has the same setup.

And yes. China has good 5g. But that is consumer electronics. Consumer goods is China's strength. Mass produced consumer goods.

Military is a whole different ball game. It's not mass produced. The economics of military equipment is just different. Just because China has good consumer electronics doesn't mean it's good at military.

limb wrote:

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by western press which drives me nuts. It is a flagrant collection of copied systems. The fighter itself looks like a mig 1.42 modified with almost identical western stealth features. I remember in 2015 the Chinese were asking to work with russian firms to develop an AESA radar for the fighter. And just a couple years later when it came out they were saying it had a superior AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.

And dont get me started on their new air to air missiles. One thing I notice that China has been doing lately is trying to one-up Russia. Remember when images from videos showed an su-35 firing an r-37m and su-57s carrying new r-77ms? China was showing some new missiles a couple days before. Russia comes out with new information about the product 30? Just a couple days before that China says development on ws-15 is ahead of schedule. Seen it multiple times when any news comes out about Russian development.

Russia should not be selling anything to China, especially not the su-57. They are not even really true allies. Communist China would gladly backstab anyone for what they would see as sensible reasons.

I would not downrate the Chinese AESA radar capabilities. The Chinese are one of the leaders in telecommunications today and a modern radar isn't all that different from a cellphone tower.
The Chinese also have a more advanced semiconductor manufacturing industry than Russia. A decade or two ago things might have been different but not today.
Actually I expect the Chinese semiconductor industry to even beat the US semiconductor industry in 5 years time.

It is true that the J-20 looks like a MiG 1.42 though. With regards to their air to air missiles, since they haven't been proven in combat your guess is as good as mine.
They did have access to Israeli missiles at one point though so not all of it must be shit. The Israelis are one of the few countries which does a lot of air combat.

With regards to China or backstabbing, or whatever, you have to remember that after the USSR crumbled the Chinese actually made a deal with Russia to solve the longstanding border issues. There was minimal exchange of land to China (perhaps a couple of small river islands). Compare that with what HATO made with both former Warsaw Pact nations and even former USSR republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.

Not to defend the chinese, but its downright moronic on american levels to claim that the j-20 is a copy of the MiG 1.44. In what way? having canards? Their fuselages
look nothing alike. By that logic F-15 is a complete monkey see monkey do level copy of the MiG-25. 2 rudders, 2 intakes, 2 engines. hurrrrr. What about EF and rafale? What about Su-57 and YF-23?

Holy shit, we know that the Chinese comissioned Russian KB's to design blueprints. Kamov did the research for the Z-10. The 1.44 was used as template by the Chinese. They do not deny it.

EF and Rafale are ironically different in every aspect and it shows on the efficiency. YF vs PakFa...ok never go full retard.

look the j-20 is a good fifth gen fighter. i just have a bad attitude about communist china. not that neocons/neolibs here at home are any better. but i just dislike china throwing shade at russian kit along with the west. see it all the time. the su-57 is an incredible design with a completely unique philosophy as opposed to the j-20 and f-22/f-35. i think all four are dangerous fifth gen fighters.

The J-20 is more or less a 4th gen fighter masquerading as a 5th gen. It isn't a bad jet by any means but it isn't anything special to write about.

[quote="KoTeMoRe"]

limb wrote:

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:.

I would not downrate the Chinese AESA radar capabilities. The Chinese are one of the leaders in telecommunications today and a modern radar isn't all that different from a cellphone tower.
The Chi

Holy shit, we know that the Chinese comissioned Russian KB's to design blueprints. Kamov did the research for the Z-10. The 1.44 was used as template by the Chinese. They do not deny it.

EF and Rafale are ironically different in every aspect and it shows on the efficiency. YF vs PakFa...ok never go full retard.

I dunno if its full retard. Copy accusations are just fun.  If you had to pick an aircraft that shared the most similarities with the su 57, it would have to be the YF-23. They are both true blend wings.

https://worldwarwings.com/russias-latest-fighter-stolen-american-design-evidence-say/

I think the reason was that they never used the YF was because
1) more expensive
2) Lockheed Martin has a stronger influence in US politics.

YF-23 was a rather good design and it wouldnt be a bad idea to grab some influence designs from it.

Backman wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

limb wrote:

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:.

I would not downrate the Chinese AESA radar capabilities. The Chinese are one of the leaders in telecommunications today and a modern radar isn't all that different from a cellphone tower.
The Chi

Holy shit, we know that the Chinese comissioned Russian KB's to design blueprints. Kamov did the research for the Z-10. The 1.44 was used as template by the Chinese. They do not deny it.

EF and Rafale are ironically different in every aspect and it shows on the efficiency. YF vs PakFa...ok never go full retard.

I dunno if its full retard. Copy accusations are just fun.  If you had to pick an aircraft that shared the most similarities with the su 57, it would have to be the YF-23. They are both true blend wings.

https://worldwarwings.com/russias-latest-fighter-stolen-american-design-evidence-say/

Are we really doing this or you're taking the piss?





The YF-23 was a vastly bigger and complex plane in its design than both the F-22 and Sukhoi's Pak Fa. This is why it failed.