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    Questions Thread: Russian Airborne Troops

    solo.13mmfmj
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    Post  solo.13mmfmj on Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:08 pm

    Did you use :AN-94(How doe int compare with ak-74?)
    .......................OC-14 "Groza"
    .......................AS val
    .......................VSS Vintorez
    Did you hear about a fighting system called sistema ?
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:48 pm

    solo.13mmfmj wrote:Did you use :AN-94(How doe int compare with ak-74?)
    .......................OC-14 "Groza"
    .......................AS val
    .......................VSS Vintorez
    Did you hear about a fighting system called sistema ?

    We used AK-74, AN-94 was too expensive to mass produce so it got tossed under the bus. It's a good rifle but it is so complicated it loses the legendary ruggedness of the AK family. Groza fires an AK-47 round in a bullpup design, if you think the 47 is inaccurate, just imagine it with a half length barrel. I never even seen the others.

    Of course I heard of Systema.
    solo.13mmfmj
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    Post  solo.13mmfmj on Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:58 pm

    Groza fires an AK-47 round in a bullpup design, if you think the 47 is inaccurate, just imagine it with a half length barrel. I never even seen the others.
    So Groza is a submachine gun with a hi-powered round?I also tout that it uses 9x39 mm subsonic round.
    We used AK-74, AN-94 was too expensive to mass produce so it got tossed under the bus. It's a good rifle but it is so complicated it loses the legendary ruggedness of the AK family
    I asked you about this gun because it claim to be very accurate.



    I never even seen the others

    VSS Vintorez:


    AS Val:


    Bout use the 9x39 mm round.

    Of course I heard of Systema.
    Some claim that is fake or that spetnaz are never train in systema an is just a publicity thing.


    Last edited by solo.13mmfmj on Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:00 am

    The TKB-0239 is basically a Groza in 7.62 x 39mm calibre, the Groza is a much more specialised weapon.

    With supersonic ammo 7.62 x 39mm ammo is much more effective than with subsonic ammo... it is just that sometimes being quiet is more important than being very lethal... ie you shoot the target a couple of times to make sure they are dead.

    Groza seems to be a very interesting weapon... it is very small... have a look at this video which shows the Groza with the AKS-74U...

    Second video download link on this page:

    http://rusarmy.com/uk/video/small/smallarms_video.htm

    direct link: http://rusarmy.com/video/strelo3/groza.avi

    (right click direct link and choose "save as")

    It is not really an assault rifle, it is more of a specialist weapon optimised for being quiet.

    I don't know for sure but there was speculation in the west that the Groza and the A-91a were designed from the outset to solve a main problem with a conventional AK rifle. That being that when fitted with an underbarrel grenade launcher it becomes very muzzle heavy and is not so comfortable to hold for long periods.

    The idea was to adopt a bullpup layout to improve the balance when the grenade launcher is fitted.

    Regarding the AN-94 there was a focus on improving accuracy, but the complicated mechanism it uses is to improve kill probability.

    If you think in terms of weapons used to hit moving targets... the best weapon is a shotgun because it increases your chances of a hit by scattering shots around the aimpoint.

    The An-94 is the same in that it is designed to put the first round on the point of aim and a rapid second round within 4-5cm or so to increase the chances of a hit.

    Just looking at the design however I really don't like the moving barrel... and the internal pulley and metal wires used to make it work.

    I think the balanced recoil design used in some rifles is a better solution to improving group sizes when firing in bursts.

    Have a good look at the Groza however... this is a modular weapon... the replacement of the Kalashnikov will likely be like that too.

    I rather doubt in practise the users will wander the battlefield with a nice case and swap out parts each time they want to use it.
    KomissarBojanchev
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:36 pm

    Can the BMD-4 withstand 50 cal AP ammo from the frontal arc?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:21 pm

    Easily.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:58 pm

    Yes.

    In fact its armour is probably comparable with the BMP-3, so you would probably have difficulty penetrating it with 30mm cannon fire.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:38 am

    Well thank god because as far as I know the earlier BMDs sould only withstand 7,62 ball rounds and even worse had magnesium alloy armor that was pyrophoric if hit by a HEAT charge. BTW is the BMD-4 equipped with spall liners?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:56 am

    GarryB wrote:Yes.

    In fact its armour is probably comparable with the BMP-3, so you would probably have difficulty penetrating it with 30mm cannon fire.

    That I am not so sure about, at least BMD-4M without the uparmor kit.
    With up armor it can probably stop 30mm, though not 30mm APFSDS. There is only so much u can do @ that weight.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:57 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Well thank god because as far as I know the earlier BMDs sould only withstand 7,62 ball rounds and even worse had magnesium alloy armor that was pyrophoric if hit by a HEAT charge. BTW is the BMD-4 equipped with spall liners?

    From the front BMD-1 and 2 could defiantly withstand bigger caliber ammo of the day.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:20 am

    Well thank god because as far as I know the earlier BMDs sould only withstand 7,62 ball rounds and even worse had magnesium alloy armor that was pyrophoric if hit by a HEAT charge. BTW is the BMD-4 equipped with spall liners?

    First of all you need to keep in mind that the purpose of the BMD is mobility. Protection from small arms fire and artillery splinters was the main goal of the design.

    The western equivalent was either walking or a truck.

    An armoured light vehicle will struggle stopping HEAT charges of any size... if the armour catches fire... well that is probably the least of your worries as a fire is easier to escape than an HEAT charge explosion.

    Protection from the front will always be heavier than from the sides and rear... an M113 could be penetrated with hand grenade fragments let alone small arms fire.

    Even if it stopped 50 cal from the front doesn't mean that it will stop it from the sides or rear or from above.

    The early model BMDs used alloys because steel alone would be too thin.

    Very simply if you make a box out of steel, to make it lighter you use thinner and thinner steel. The problem is that strength is not just about the material... it is also about thickness.

    If you can only use 1 ton of armour then you might end up with steel that is too thin to be strong. If you use a lighter material... like a magnesium steel alloy then it can be made thicker and therefore stronger.

    The later model BMDs were made of aluminium alloys which sounds worse than steel, but because it is much lighter it is also much thicker and therefore stronger and more useful.

    Note the BMD-3 is a completely different design from 1 and 2, and 4 is an upgraded 3.

    That I am not so sure about, at least BMD-4M without the uparmor kit.

    Standard 30mm rounds, not anti armour.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:22 am

    BTW the only US equivalent would be the Sheridan, which can be penetrated from the side or rear by 50 cal ball rounds, and is vulnerable to 14.5mm HMG rounds from any angle.

    The price of being air dropable.

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