S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV

LMFS wrote:Source: strike drone "Okhotnik" first tested with missiles

Tests of the combat unmanned aviation complex Okhotnik - Russia news agency, 1920, 02.12.

MOSCOW, December 2 - RIA Novosti.
"From the strip of the military airfield of the Center for Combat Training and Combat Use of the Russian Aerospace Forces at the Ashuluk training ground, several flights of the Hunter were performed with functional simulators of guided air-to-air missiles. Such missiles in the combat version are designed to destroy other aircraft," the source said agencies, noting that the tests were recent.
The source explained that the flights performed "will make it possible to assess the coupling of the drone's avionics with missile guidance systems and the lead Su-57 aircraft ."

According to the interlocutor, simulators of missiles with infrared and radar homing heads were used on the Okhotnik.
"The simulators have a body and all the electronic stuffing of the corresponding missile, but they lack the engine and warhead," the source said.

https://ria.ru/20201202/ispytaniya-1587264518.html

Simulators without engine means that they have been hanged on an external pylon instead than in the bomb bay?

It means an empty R-77 with only testing tools inside instead of warhead/engine/computers.

You can see plenty of pictures of them on su-30/35. Thry are generally red.

But thise ones were in the weapons bay. I doubt S-70 can carry anything externally.

Like this :

marcellogo wrote:

LMFS wrote:Source: strike drone "Okhotnik" first tested with missiles

Tests of the combat unmanned aviation complex Okhotnik - Russia news agency, 1920, 02.12.

MOSCOW, December 2 - RIA Novosti.
"From the strip of the military airfield of the Center for Combat Training and Combat Use of the Russian Aerospace Forces at the Ashuluk training ground, several flights of the Hunter were performed with functional simulators of guided air-to-air missiles. Such missiles in the combat version are designed to destroy other aircraft," the source said agencies, noting that the tests were recent.
The source explained that the flights performed "will make it possible to assess the coupling of the drone's avionics with missile guidance systems and the lead Su-57 aircraft ."

According to the interlocutor, simulators of missiles with infrared and radar homing heads were used on the Okhotnik.
"The simulators have a body and all the electronic stuffing of the corresponding missile, but they lack the engine and warhead," the source said.

https://ria.ru/20201202/ispytaniya-1587264518.html

Simulators without engine means that they have been hanged on an external pylon instead than in the bomb bay?

These news stories are trash. RIA is staffed by morons and the evidence is their use of NATzO propaganda language to describe
Russia's politics. They use terms like "pro-Kremlin opposition" which is a loaded propaganda term without any content. In Canada
the opposition is called "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" since foaming at the mouth fringe lunatics have no support and no legitimacy.
Yet in Russia, clowns like Navalny are supposed to be the voice of the people with their 2% (transient) support. So RIA reporting
on details of the Okhotnik are not to be trusted without verification.

The thing is already flying, so why would they need ground tests for missile launches. If they had such tests then it was to help
design the fuselage likely several years ago. They don't need such tests now if they did their job correctly.

dino00 wrote:Air to air missiles, S-70 will be the wingman of Su-57, and thunder uav could be the wingman of the S-70.

It makes sense for these platforms to have both self defence capacities and also to extend the distances at which a mixed wing can threaten the opposing air force. BTW that supports that the Okhotnik will go in the front and the Su-57 will stay behind. But of course such planes are not fighters and are not intended for air superiority, this is the equivalent (actually a downgraded version) of the A2A capacity of a Su-34. In my opinion of course...

marcellogo wrote:
Simulators without engine means that they have been hanged on an external pylon instead than in the bomb bay?

I think these are integration tests, no launch was performed. I don't know if some lock before launch were performed, in that case they would do as you say, but in normal conditions this will not be the case so it would not be really necessary. Seems likely that they just checked the communication between the missile and the avionics of the aircraft, form & fit and similar issues.

thegopnik wrote:Geez I am starting to believe that it really is a pain in the ass having a drone fire a decent long range missile. I mean as in right now there were no test fires of the bae taranis, neuron, X-47B while the Su-70 did test fire glide bombs and now a simulated air to air missile. just waiting for any live missile test be it air to air or air to ground. The conducting air to air tests was earlier than expected, which is a good thing.

Let's say that the armed drones, UAV and UCAV actually tested are almost uniquely subsonic so no one has EVER seriously tried to employ A2A missiles from them.
Now, the S-70 is advertized to be almost transonic so maybe they have just aiming to give it a try in such a role but I still think it would not be its primary one.

Simulators without engine means that they have been hanged on an external pylon instead than in the bomb bay?

Good point. Normally when carried by a fighter these dummy missiles are mounted on the wing and use their nose mounted radar or IR sensor to find the target and get a lock before launch. It is not fired because it is only used for testing to see if the target can be locked and therefore fired upon by that system, but in this case the S-70 does not have external weapon pylons so this was an internal weapon mounted AAM system.

The question is, do the AAM pylons include a system to extend them outside the aircraft to expose their Radar or IR sensors for locks before launch, or are these new version missiles that can be given target data inside the weapon bay and therefore be lock on after launch weapons...

"will make it possible to assess the coupling of the drone's avionics with missile guidance systems and the lead Su-57 aircraft ."

Suggests the lead Su-57 detects targets and passes target information to the drone which relays it to its weapons inside its weapons bay... the question is... is that enough to then launch the missile which then uses information from the Su-57 to find and lock the target, or does the S-70 lower the missile out of the weapon bay so it can use target data from the Su-57 to then scan for the target with the missile sensor to get a lock and then launch the missile?

I would suspect the former...

I think these are integration tests, no launch was performed. I don't know if some lock before launch were performed, in that case they would do as you say, but in normal conditions this will not be the case so it would not be really necessary. Seems likely that they just checked the communication between the missile and the avionics of the aircraft, form & fit and similar issues.

I would suspect these tests will be with lock on after launch missiles... R-77-1, R-74M2, R-37M, in which case they can test receiving target data and simulate engagements without launching missiles... data collected could determine if a lock would be possible and if the engagement would have been successful without launching a weapon.

Let's say that the armed drones, UAV and UCAV actually tested are almost uniquely subsonic so no one has EVER seriously tried to employ A2A missiles from them.
Now, the S-70 is advertized to be almost transonic so maybe they have just aiming to give it a try in such a role but I still think it would not be its primary one.

Having an S-70 drone flying at high altitude a little ahead of Su-57s would be a useful way of penetrating enemy air space... any enemy aircraft appear the S-70 could launch R-37Ms, while potentially fire R-77Ms at anything large launched at the Su-57 or themselves like SAMS or Meteors...

Having several of them means extra weapons in addition to primary weapons for the job at hand... Even when they use up their weapons they are extra sensors and EW jamming systems that can support you.

Good point. Normally when carried by a fighter these dummy missiles are mounted on the wing and use their nose mounted radar or IR sensor to find the target and get a lock before launch. It is not fired because it is only used for testing to see if the target can be locked and therefore fired upon by that system, but in this case the S-70 does not have external weapon pylons so this was an internal weapon mounted AAM system.

The question is, do the AAM pylons include a system to extend them outside the aircraft to expose their Radar or IR sensors for locks before launch, or are these new version missiles that can be given target data inside the weapon bay and therefore be lock on after launch weapons...

That's true for old missiles used on su-35 and su-27 type.

S-70 will use su-57's missiles designed to be used from internal weapon bays.

So yes they must have tested them inside. Testing them from outside provides nothing because they will be used from inside.

IMO Both the new IR missile and the r-77M are lock on after the launch to achieve long range attacks.

Isos wrote:

But thise ones were in the weapons bay. I doubt S-70 can carry anything externally.

I remember exactly what was said about the S-70: "it can carry N tons of payload, of which Y tons in the inner compartment"

I'm not necessarily a fan of drones using AA missiles. Usually in past they didn't work well in AA mode, and EW may be a huge problem.

miketheterrible wrote:I'm not necessarily a fan of drones using AA missiles.  Usually in past they didn't work well in AA mode, and EW may be a huge problem.

They just carry them. It must be su-57 that control them with its radar and datalink

I didn't know that the ARH missiles needed to lock on before launch... I figured it would the irbis e on an su-35 which would lock onto target and then launch the missile when launch authority was given. then the missile would be guided by datalink till the ARH head could get close enough to detect the target on it's own. I just figured the s-70 had these weapons were stored internally and have a trapeze system or they are slung on the bay door or something.

I didn't know that the ARH missiles needed to lock on before launch...

They don't, and R-27ERs don't either, but their short range missiles... IR guided missiles except the newest ones do.

Most old generation IR guided missiles had a narrow field of view so if you pointed them at a target and told it to scan for a lock you relied on the narrow FOV to assure it locked on what you were pointing it at rather something off boresight that might be emitting ir energy.

To make high off boresight missiles practical you had to have some capacity to point their sensor at what you were trying to lock otherwise if it has a 180 degree FOV it might lock on anything and you have no idea what until you launch it and see what it chases.

With the R-73 you could use a radar lock, an IRST lock or the helmet mounted sight to direct the missile seeker to look at the target to get a lock before launch.

With it carried internally obviously you can't direct the sensor to find the target before launch, so you determine where the target is in respect to the missile so that when the missile is launched and is clear of the launch aircraft it can look in the direction of the target and get its own lock... a lock after launch.

The launch pylons for the R-77 and R-37 use hydraulic rams to push the missiles down and clear of the aircraft on launch to assure a clean separation... the internal weapon bay launch mounts would all need the same to throw the missiles and bombs of all types clear of the aircraft rapidly to prevent the air flow pushing the weapons back up into the aircraft on launch and damaging the weapons or the aircraft or both...

This means the R-73 and similar weapons would also need these launch systems too.

thegopnik wrote:https://3na5n22lvmj63her4dozpirpk4--naukatehnika-com.translate.goog/serijnaya-%C2%ABarmata%C2%BB,-su-57,-i-ekzoskeletyi-v-rostexe-rasskazali-o-perspektivax-vpk-v-2021-godu.html

I officially give up trying to figure out the payload of the drone.

"In parallel, tests of the S-70 Okhotnik heavy unmanned bomber are underway. Sergey Chemezov stressed that the Ministry of Defense "asks to speed up as much as possible" to complete work on the UAV. Recall that the "Okhotnik" is a fifth-generation slave UAV, which can work in conjunction with the Su-57. On the external sling and in bomb compartments, the S-70 can carry up to 8 tons of combat load, which can be delivered to a maximum range of 6,000 km."

Okhotnik is a huge drone in 20 tonnes range so eight tonnes of payload isn't out of possibility. But I'm skeptical about the range.

zepia wrote:

thegopnik wrote:https://3na5n22lvmj63her4dozpirpk4--naukatehnika-com.translate.goog/serijnaya-%C2%ABarmata%C2%BB,-su-57,-i-ekzoskeletyi-v-rostexe-rasskazali-o-perspektivax-vpk-v-2021-godu.html

I officially give up trying to figure out the payload of the drone.

"In parallel, tests of the S-70 Okhotnik heavy unmanned bomber are underway. Sergey Chemezov stressed that the Ministry of Defense "asks to speed up as much as possible" to complete work on the UAV. Recall that the "Okhotnik" is a fifth-generation slave UAV, which can work in conjunction with the Su-57. On the external sling and in bomb compartments, the S-70 can carry up to 8 tons of combat load, which can be delivered to a maximum range of 6,000 km."

Okhotnik is a huge drone in 20 tonnes range so eight tonnes of payload isn't out of possibility. But I'm skeptical about the range.

Chemezov is confusing maximum range with range with maximum payload. Or maybe the journalist hack misquoted him.

kvs wrote:Chemezov is confusing maximum range with range with maximum payload.   Or maybe the journalist hack misquoted him.

I think is the second. As for the range, I think it was reported that such figure was mentioned in a conversation at Army or MAKS between Erdogan and Putin, and I see it perfectly possible for an aircraft like Okhotnik

That is interesting because external stores would allow drop tanks and ECM pods to be carried too as well as those new pods developed for the Su-34 perhaps for recon or jamming...

Certainly when operating against a weak enemy an S-70 drone could carry a wide range of weapons externally that could be dropped on targets from medium altitudes like in Syria... and indeed the internal weapon bays could be fitted with racks to allow enormous numbers of tiny bombs and guided missiles to be carried like the new ones optimised for drone use... so individual vehicles could be hit with 20kg guided bombs with nav attack pods and external fuel tanks used to greatly extend range... perhaps even inflight refuelling added at some stage...

I would expect it would struggle to carry 8 tons of weapons internally... even four 1,500kg bombs would give you 6 tons...

kvs wrote:

zepia wrote:

thegopnik wrote:https://3na5n22lvmj63her4dozpirpk4--naukatehnika-com.translate.goog/serijnaya-%C2%ABarmata%C2%BB,-su-57,-i-ekzoskeletyi-v-rostexe-rasskazali-o-perspektivax-vpk-v-2021-godu.html

I officially give up trying to figure out the payload of the drone.

"In parallel, tests of the S-70 Okhotnik heavy unmanned bomber are underway. Sergey Chemezov stressed that the Ministry of Defense "asks to speed up as much as possible" to complete work on the UAV. Recall that the "Okhotnik" is a fifth-generation slave UAV, which can work in conjunction with the Su-57. On the external sling and in bomb compartments, the S-70 can carry up to 8 tons of combat load, which can be delivered to a maximum range of 6,000 km."

Okhotnik is a huge drone in 20 tonnes range so eight tonnes of payload isn't out of possibility. But I'm skeptical about the range.

Chemezov is confusing maximum range with range with maximum payload.   Or maybe the journalist hack misquoted him.

Current payload is purely limited by the external hard points and internal bay. The Drone is large and can easily reach 6/7 ton external, internal. 8...dunno.

Perhaps it is 6 tons internal weapon payload and 2 tons of drop tanks external which are dropped when empty...

GarryB wrote:Perhaps it is 6 tons internal weapon payload and 2 tons of drop tanks external which are dropped when empty...

No the internal was estimated at 2 tons. Could be made to hold 3.2. External was 4.6 max. So yes it can reach 8 tonish. But IMO they will not be using anything but the internal payload for a while.

It has enormous potential as a slave drone for the Su-57 but could as easily be used on its own as a strike weapon... I mean lets face it... it is an unmanned F-117 with likely similar speed but much much much better range with two onboard guided bombs...

How stealthy it is is another question of course...

Mass deliveries of Okhotnik strike drones to the troops will begin in 2024 - First Deputy Chairman of the Board of the Military-Industrial Complex of the Russian Federation

Purchases of "Okhotnik" will be included in the state armament program for 2024-2033

Yelchaninov noted that during the joint tests of the Okhotnik with the fifth generation Su-57 fighter, the mutual transfer of information between the aircraft is being worked out - the redistribution of targets in flight, maintaining intervals and distances, and performing anti-missile maneuvers.

In the future, the pilot of the Su-57 fighter will be able to distribute tasks in a group of drones and organize the work of the so-called "swarm" using artificial intelligence, said the first deputy chairman of the board of the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=543328&lang=RU

dino00 wrote:Mass deliveries of Okhotnik strike drones to the troops will begin in 2024 - First Deputy Chairman of the Board of the Military-Industrial Complex of the Russian Federation

Purchases of "Okhotnik" will be included in the state armament program for 2024-2033

Yelchaninov noted that during the joint tests of the Okhotnik with the fifth generation Su-57 fighter, the mutual transfer of information between the aircraft is being worked out - the redistribution of targets in flight, maintaining intervals and distances, and performing anti-missile maneuvers.

In the future, the pilot of the Su-57 fighter will be able to distribute tasks in a group of drones and organize the work of the so-called "swarm" using artificial intelligence, said the first deputy chairman of the board of the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=543328&lang=RU

2024 is a very ambitious goal.