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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:41 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GarryB wrote:MiG-35 has DAS, why would Su-57 not have it?

    Hell the westerners think they are special with sensor fusion... MiG-29 and Su-27 had Helmet mounted cueing systems linked together with the IRSTs and radar so any of the three could be used to find and mark targets and transfer the lock to either of the other systems if needed...
    What do you mean exactly by DAS? Only equivalent distributed apertures I know are the MAWS and the only info I have seen has it they are UV. I see no problem putting IR or optical systems there is no info about it

    Su-57 has side radars it can cover the sides and the front. Not 360 coverage but close. Its radars can pick up missiles at ranges similar to UV sensors. Then it's only a matter of showing the info to the pilot.

    But radars are mostly turned off.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:30 pm

    Su-57 has UV sensors. Don't know to which degree if it's full camera or not.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:54 pm

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 24 072610
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 am

    garryb wrote:Why do you think it is not stealthy?
    Because the housing is spherical.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:01 am

    Why would the Russians go to such lengths to design a new AL-41 for the Su-57 if they never planned to put it in service, instead waiting for the izd.30? Why not just test the prototypes with the regular AL-41s?

    Also, is there any scientific reason why the russians wouldnt be able to mass produce a VCE engine ATM?

    GarryB wrote:MiG-35 has DAS, why would Su-57 not have it?

    Hell the westerners think they are special with sensor fusion... MiG-29 and Su-27 had Helmet mounted cueing systems linked together with the IRSTs and radar so any of the three could be used to find and mark targets and transfer the lock to either of the other systems if needed...
    Not to mention the soviet jets, starting from the Mig-23 integrated radar tracking with the HUD, while the US 4gens still had a separate radar display, thus making the pilot need to constantly look down on it instead of looking at the HUD.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:46 am

    The MiG-35 has:

    – optronic systems for detection of attacking missiles and laser emission;

    And we have seen reports of Hinds being fitted with EO thermal systems for detecting threats on the ground out to several kilometres with a sensor that has four fixed cameras providing a DAS like coverage.


    Because the housing is spherical.

    The engine of the F-35 is spherical too is that not stealthy either?

    Why would the Russians go to such lengths to design a new AL-41 for the Su-57 if they never planned to put it in service, instead waiting for the izd.30? Why not just test the prototypes with the regular AL-41s?

    Just different development paths to increase thrust and introduce new technologies. Most of what has been developed for each engine can be used to design upgraded versions of older aircraft engines to improve their performance... a bit like the PS-90A engines and the D-30... sometimes the new engines are worth it and sometimes an upgraded older engine can do the job without costing too much in exotic new materials...
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:36 pm

    Isos wrote:Su-57 has side radars it can cover the sides and the front. Not 360 coverage but close. Its radars can pick up missiles at ranges similar to UV sensors. Then it's only a matter of showing the info to the pilot.

    But radars are mostly turned off.
    Radar is not a substitute for MAWS. The ideal position for a missile attack is from 6, where there is no radar at least normally. MAWS needs complete coverage around the plane.

    I would think the roadmap for the MAWS could see them turned into a DAS with helmet representation close to the one in F-35 in the future. It makes sense and having the apertures already placed around the airframe makes it relatively simple from the point of view of integration. Maybe not high prio, but good for the pilot to know better around the plane. I agree it is more important in ground battlefield environment (see installation on Hinds) but it does not hurt on a fighter either.

    bolshevik345 wrote:Because the housing is spherical.
    Glass is transparent to radar, sapphire is not. The inners can be covered in RAM, shaped to create a wave trap with internal reflections, have very small reflective surface or all of the previous. All we know is Russia has not apparently felt the need to apply the US stealth cookbook literally, there might be alternative approaches that are simpler and cheaper without any relevant practical effect.


    Why would the Russians go to such lengths to design a new AL-41 for the Su-57 if they never planned to put it in service, instead waiting for the izd.30? Why not just test the prototypes with the regular AL-41s?

    Also, is there any scientific reason why the russians wouldnt be able to mass produce a VCE engine ATM?
    Good question. They have said a number of times that 1st stage engine was ok to fulfil MoD requirements and 2nd stage was not a strict necessity. Designers were angry that the plane was dismissed in the media because of this reason. So I think it was indeed originally planned to be used in the series broadly until MoD changed their minds. There has been also a certain insistence that the 2nd stage one was the "real" 5G engine. From several interviews, what I make out of the whole is that 5G = VCE for Russians. Izd. 20 was already VCE, it would make sense Izd. 30 is VCE. I ignore any technical issue preventing them to produce them, both Russia and US have developed examples already and only failure of MFI and selection of lower technical risk option in the case of ATF program meant we still don't have them in the series. A 5G plane is considered normally a supercruiser, without variable cycle it means it is going to have high SFC in peace time operations and low subsonic range, so for air forces it is a suboptimal solution and an expensive one to operate. For instance and if I am not wrong, SFC of a low BPR engine like M88, F119 or EJ2000 around 80 kg/kN/h while Al-31F should be around 67 kg/kN/h, which is almost a 20% difference.
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    Post  Azi on Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:45 pm

    bolshevik345 wrote:Why would the Russians go to such lengths to design a new AL-41 for the Su-57 if they never planned to put it in service, instead waiting for the izd.30? Why not just test the prototypes with the regular AL-41s?
    From my view...the Al-41 is for the export version. The Su-57E is practically offered now, to everyone who is interested! And of course it's a backup for RuAF if they need the Su-57 now. The izd.30 has great opportunities, but also risks. From my personal point of view the progress now of the izd.30 is good, so the AL-41 is backup and for the exportversion.

    We will see soon the specification of the export version! Wink
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    Post  Hole on Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:43 pm

    DAS means nothing else then that the RWR, UV and other sensors, the onboard ECM equipment and the chaff/flare launchers are combined into a single computer controlled system.

    The Su-24 had such a self-protection system back in the 70. Is called BKO-2M Karpaty on the Su-24M.

    The Su-57 has 4 to 6 UV sensors around the airframe. Together with RWR they are part of the Gimalai (Himalaya) ECM suite (kompleks).
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:19 pm

    Generation Crimea: The newest Su-57 fighters will be sent to the southern borders

    The planes will come into service with regiments in a tense strategic direction.

    April 8, 2019 Aleksey Ramm Alexey Kozachenko Bogdan Stepovoy



    Fighters of the fifth generation Su-57 will be the first to receive one of the aviation regiments of the Southern Military District. Currently, the Ministry of Defense is deciding which one. The aircraft will fall either into the 3rd mixed aviation regiment of the 1st mixed aviation division, stationed in Krymsk, or into the 38th fighter aviation regiment of the 27th mixed aviation division at the Sevastopol airfield Belbek, sources in the military department told Izvestia.

    The Su-57 is a fifth-generation multifunctional fighter designed to replace the Su-27. It was created using stealth technology. The first flight of the car made back in 2010. During the time that has passed since the first flight, a total of 10 flight prototypes have been built.

    The most modern technologies of the Russian defense industry are embodied in the fighter. The aircraft can reach speeds of up to 2.6 thousand km / h, the flight range is about 4.3 thousand km. Su-57 is able to detect aircraft at a distance of several hundred kilometers and simultaneously conduct up to 30 targets. An ultra-long-range R-37M hypersonic air-to-air missile is being developed for it, which can hit high-speed air targets at a distance of more than 300 km. The fighter successfully passed tests not only at the test sites, but also in real combat conditions in the Syrian Arab Republic.

    Steps to the sky

    The VKS has a two-level adoption system. First, serial copies arrive at the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense (GLITS) in Akhtubinsk. Here during the operation, the flight qualities of the aircraft are found out, for example, it is determined with what maximum speed and overload the aircraft can perform maneuvers safely for the pilot’s health, it turns out when the fighter can fall into a tailspin.

    Then the equipment arrives in Lipetsk, the 4th Combat Training Center, where pilot instructors work with it. It checks the work of avionics, as well as regular weapons systems. But the most important thing is that tactics are being developed for the combat use of aircraft. Following the results, a flight manual is being prepared, where recommendations are given on how to act in an emergency situation. For example, what should be done if the plane unexpectedly went into a tailspin or how to land correctly in case of failure of the landing gear and other onboard systems.

    Only after this begins the delivery of new aircraft in the VKS. In the regiment, which will get the Su-57, work on improving the aircraft will continue and will be carried out in close contact with the engineers of the manufacturer.

    Full article:
    https://iz.ru/861344/aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko-bogdan-stepovoi/pokolenie-kryma-noveishie-istrebiteli-su-57-otpraviat-na-iuzhnye-rubezhi
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 24 Empty pilot build

    Post  Gazputin on Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:26 am

    yeah agree
    its in Pilot Build stage for sure
    whenever an official model number is allocated - you have a "design frozen" for mass / serial production

    so this plane is in reality something like …. Su-57-A-001-A …. which would cover the current tech spec
    if they refine the electronics you'll have a Su-57-A-002-A … etc
    same with your family car …. there are loads of "engineering variants" that the service dept can see that you can't

    so a pilot build is where you are doing your first assemble of mass produced components as opposed to hand-made components on your prototypes
    which were T-50

    you'd be surprised … how some mass produced parts don't actually fit as expected … first time around … and sent back .
    sometimes they may decide to rearrange the assemble process as they have discovered its easier and quicker to do Station 6 before 3 ….
    that's all part of the pilot build process
    they'll probably build 1/mth 1st 1/2 of next year - then ramp it up to 2 … 2nd 1/2 of next year … and so on

    how long will they build the "A" spec with the AL-41 ? …. I'd expect 2-3 yrs …. what's that 50-75 ?
    then start on the "B" with the dual cycle engine … in 2023 ?

    re squadrons

    you'd think that the Su-57s would go to gun pilots anyway ? there must be 10-20 by now that have flown the prototypes ..
    there's your first squadron ?
    as you say … they need to get all the manuals etc sorted for squadron 2 and 3 etc

    awesome plane … Smile

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    Post  marcellogo on Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:53 am

    Thank you both Dino00 and Gazputin for remembering us how industrialization phase i.e. passage between end of prototype phase and full rate serail production happen in Sov/Russian praxis.
    Let's add that the mention about what will be the first combat units to get Su-57 confirm what they and others before (including me) have already said, currently there is not anything unusual in acquisition process of Su-57: production of the first two "first serials" planes, the order dor squadron for the Training centre in Lipetsk are made following quite literally the standard procedure, only difference is that the full serials would have different engines from the pre-production ones.
    That's because almost a plane of the first batch is scheduled to receive izd30 so to sort ot eventual differences between the two models.
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:17 pm

    Gazputin wrote:so a pilot build is where you are doing your first assemble of mass produced components as opposed to hand-made components on your prototypes which were T-50
    Agree, these two pilot units are not as some claim a "proof" the program has failed but rather usual practice in Russian aerospace and completely normal in the industrialization process of other products. I assume the aim is to test the serial production line and sourcing processes on first unit (the one being produced as we speak), analyse what didn't work as expected and test corrections on a second unit. From my experience two units would be the bare minimum to have a pilot series and it also shows they are pretty confident they don't need a longer one to get the production set up properly.

    how long will they build the "A" spec with the AL-41 ? …. I'd expect 2-3 yrs  …. what's that 50-75 ?
    then start on the "B" with the dual cycle engine … in 2023 ?
    Do you mean 50-75 units with 1st stage engine? Until now the only planed buy is a batch of 15 units, of which 2 units were contracted firm in 2018 and 13 more are expected to be contracted for next year IIRC. They should be capable of producing this batch in one or two years from 2020 and by then Izd. 30 should be ready or close to being ready. But if it is indeed variable cycle I could imagine operational doctrine modifications of a certain depth would be needed due to notably higher cruising speeds and/or range, so a new small batch would be needed for testing and combat training before batch production starts. Not sure if serial production with 1st stage engine would continue in the meantime.

    awesome plane … Smile
    True, and I bet the future development roadmap is awesome too thumbsup
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    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:39 pm

    In the past there were a few cases when they rushed things. The Su-24 had still a few proplems but was put into service because the plane was much better then its predecessor (Yak-28). The first batch of the MiG-23 was produced with the radar of the last MiG-21 version because it was also better. Today is much different. With the Su-30/-34/-35 there is no need to press the Su-5 into service. And if it gets into service it will be a fully usable plane, not like some western models.
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    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:50 pm

    Su-57 deployment at Latakia

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 24 D3oJA8rW4AAOfg_
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:09 pm

    New deployment?
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    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:16 pm

    dino00 wrote:New deployment?

    maybe not because it is a google image. Rambo54 posted it here: https://twitter.com/reutersanders/status/1115213867557228544
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:29 pm

    George1 wrote:
    dino00 wrote:New deployment?

    maybe not because it is a google image. Rambo54 posted it here: https://twitter.com/reutersanders/status/1115213867557228544

    Yes i was to his tweeter to saw if he Said something, from the comments is last year trip
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    Post  Gazputin on Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:42 am

    come on guys ….
    this is an awesome plane …why do you think the braindead western media slags it ?

    I'm a product guy ….
    not a designer
    … but even someone with 1/2 a brain …. can read wikiaedia
    this thing will fly 10,00 ft above and 500 mph faster than an F-35
    but if you listen to the western mutual masturbation society …
    the F-35 will magically appear 50m behind SU-57s … and "slay" them …

    if an F-35 "Klingon Bird of Prey" fires a missile from 10,00 ft below
    it will be falling out of the air backwards before it gets up there …

    come on you guys … you'd have to be out of your mind to go near an SU-57 …

    western media …. lol

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    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:50 am

    Russia's answer to thousand of f-35 near its border will be su-57 armed with tactical nuclear missiles, iskanders with nuclear wareheads and kalibrs with nuclear warheads.

    They very well know they can't go one vs one against nato airforce with 50 or so su-35, 100 su-30 and even less su-57.

    They need their airforce only to watch during peace time what's coming near their borders or some interventions like syria or wars against smaller countries. Nato and all the US dogs like Australia and japan that needs also to be included in nato represent too much for going only conventional.

    They are not buying those missile corvettes with uksk for nothing.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:28 am

    dino00 wrote:New deployment?
    Google Earth tells you the date of the imagery its showing, says its 23 Feb 2018.
    Oddly doesn't actually show up in the History slider which has 17 Nov 2017 as newest version.

    Edit: tada
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t5572p500-pak-fa-t-50-news-4#217191
    23 Feb 2018 is when the original pics/vid were dated.
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:36 pm

    Russian top brass refutes reports on redeploying Su-57 fighter jets to Syria

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1052839

    Incredible, the story got so big that MoD had to refute it
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    Post  hoom on Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:04 pm

    Oddly they failed to locate it to correct date too lol.

    This was posted 27th feb 2018, its clearly the same satelite pic
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 24 31947044dx

    Edit: rotated & pasted on top of the 'new' pic
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 24 A4oZk0M

    Edit2: properly aligned & scaled
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 24 Bh3D7wW
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    Post  southpark on Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:42 am

    Even if they did, what is the big deal....do they need permission to deploy? I guess anyone can become reporter now a days...might as well close schools and universities and get education from major media.

    No clue why MOD reacted by "refuting"
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    Post  hoom on Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:08 am

    Even if they did, what is the big deal....do they need permission to deploy?
    Indeed, unless Syrian govt or govt whose territory is over-flown on the way objects Russia could send them back if they want, when they want.
    Personally I think it unnecessarily exposed them to ELINT gathering & risked possibility of a crash in unfriendly territory -> was a bad idea.

    The fact that a Google Maps imagery update with last years' imagery got so much press without anyone noticing the date & that the pic has been seen before really goes to show how shitty media/anti-Russia hysteria/neo-McCarthyism has become.

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