Roscosmos Planetary Exploration Missions

Current Roscosmos civilian sector is so abysmally bad,

Wasn't the civilian sector of roscosmos, single handedly, responsible for making sure that humanity has 24/7 presence in space for nearly a decade?

Most of the mission scientists working on Chandrayan-3 are women, which you will not see in today's cuckservative Russia under the Putin's tradcuck leadership.... The Soviet Union was a scientifically driven progressive country, achieving many breakthroughs in science and technology.... Sadly, modern Russia is regressing towards a pseudo traditional society without a concrete understanding of morals, ethics, or spirituality. As a result, Russia has fewer women in scientific and military fields, but at the same time has much higher divorce rate and HIV compared to very highly populated countries like India and China. Both India and China, and even Iran to a large extent is encouraging its female citizens to take part in development of science and technology and also to join the military. A country cannot progress if half of its population does not participate in its growth and development. Hence, even Islamic nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia are focusing on including women in science and technical fields. Being progressive does not mean endorsing wokeism debauchery. Soviet Union was a good example of modern progressive society without any trace of wokeism garbage.

Russia must wake up and abandon this Alex Jones style new found toxic cuckservative ideology that will destroy the countries future progress in science and technology.

Hugely retarded take.

If Russian women were being trad-wife, stay-at-home moms on average, Russia wouldn't have a TFR below 2.

It's the Soviet Union that massacred millions of Christians as well as brain washed the rest into (eventually) nihilistic atheism, which is one major reason, ironically, why it collapsed. "Spirituality" and morality don't mean anything without a framework providing the metaphysical understanding of those terms; materialistic atheists reject metaphysics altogether.

If women were being "oppressed" in Russia why does the Federation Council have a female head? Why are female scientists allowed to bitch about how their part-time job doesn't get them paid twice as well as a full-time worker (see prominent case a few years back)? Why are they even allowed to vote and go to university and abort their children? You seem to have very little clue about Russia or what an actual "trad-society" would look like.

Edit: and before the whining starts...the above is not meant to be a dialectical exercise of the "good trad-society" vs. the "evil progressive society", I'm just giving examples about typical characterizations to demonstrate a mischaracterization.

Okay so the actual cut-off time was radioed then? Face meet palm...

I'm jumping back on board of the conspiracy train...malign actors messing with the signal is starting to look like a real possibility. Doesn't NASA have comms sats near the moon that could simply emit a much stronger signal (space-EW basically with a kind of spoofing attack)? Though it would have to be highly directional so as not to be easily detected on Earth.

Sprut-B wrote:

https://twitter.com/Sama_Gautham_/status/1694339923577623000?t=enm1cL7jZAQ478T_aq2m9Q&s=19

Most of the mission scientists working on Chandrayan-3 are women, which you will not see in today's cuckservative Russia under the Putin's tradcuck leadership.... The Soviet Union was a scientifically driven progressive country, achieving many breakthroughs in science and technology.... Sadly, modern Russia is regressing towards a pseudo traditional society without a concrete understanding of morals, ethics, or spirituality. As a result, Russia has fewer women in scientific and military fields, but at the same time has much higher divorce rate and HIV compared to very highly populated countries like India and China. Both India and China, and even Iran to a large extent is encouraging its female citizens to take part in development of science and technology and also to join the military. A country cannot progress if half of its population does not participate in its growth and development. Hence, even Islamic nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia are focusing on including women in science and technical fields. Being progressive does not mean endorsing wokeism debauchery. Soviet Union was a good example of modern progressive society without any trace of wokeism garbage.

Russia must wake up and abandon this Alex Jones style new found toxic cuckservative ideology that will destroy the countries future progress in science and technology.

Russia has the 1st or 2nd highest amount of female CEOs compared to men in the world and has something like twice as much women in STEM fields compared to the Western average too. None of this was abandoned or regressed after the Soviet Union's fall

You simply don't know what you're talking about. The cuckservatism is in regards to gender roles in the family and the family-orientated culture in general. To some extent it's tied with religion too like with the Church speaking out against abortion and so on.
But when it comes to gender roles in the workplace, they're much the same as they were in the USSR only without some of the needless propaganda drives like women in heavy industry or construction.. which was a thing during the WW2 period and some decades after but ultimately virtually no woman wants to work in such a field if she has an alternative and their job preferences today reflect that. Women working as researchers, engineers, mathematicians, etc... was always a big thing in the USSR though and continues to be today in Russia. I had an interview at a bio research lab some years ago as a programmer. There was a company bus that took me and the other employees there. Only me and the senior programmer were males. The 30-40 biological researchers there who work at the lab were all women from what I saw. Dunno what was up with that but hey, not complaining. Shame I didn't get the job

I don't think the Russian failure is due to the quality of our science or scientists at all. They're all still top-notch. What's behind it is either political interference, or mismanagement, or poor import-substitution of some sanctioned components, or the prior decades of under-funding, or loss of key competencies to retirement; something along those lines.
India, while it deserves every accolade for its success, has access to all the best in Western and Russian assistance at its call too, in regards to its space program. And I'm sure it did have some partnerships active which helped it. It can import whatever technology or components it wants.

Ned86 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Congrats to India. And hopefully Russia learned from this not to push things to be first here or there so they won't end up in failure.  And if they want to be first at something, don't rush it to failure.

Congrats to India.....it is great for them and for the science.

Russia was first  anyway, not just on the moon....but if they want to downplay you (Russia in this case) they will did it anyway.
It was a bad day for russia, bad coincidence and it came in a wrong moment and gave all haters reason for gloating.

It wasn't a bad day for Russia, you speak as if it was a matter of luck. Russia created the 'bad day' all of its own. If it really wanted to be first to land on the south pole of the Moon, then they had decades to do that. That no missions were funded for 50 years and the Luna-25 took years longer to get off the ground then planned is Russia's own doing. Then it launched just 10 days ago or so, and was in a mad rush to beat the Indians to the punch who had launched months earlier.
If Russia wanted to get there earlier, then it should have started their mission earlier. And abandoned its approach to the moon as soon as the 'communication failures' or what was it became apparent. None of this cowboy bullshit. They tried to rush it, it didn't fly.

kvs wrote:If no heads roll at Roscosmos, then this will be really bad for Russia.   Such a farce needs to have corrective measures instead of
"shit happens" ass covering.  

It will be a stain on Putin if he does not crack the whip on Borisov.   Rogozin needs to be brought back.   I wonder how much damage
Borisov did to the Russian MIC.   As in the precious west, incompetent clowns are promoted instead of being given 100 lashes.

Rogozin needs to be brought back?

Na, he was more useful attracting missiles in the Donbass

Until he realized that that was the wrong posting for him too

Begome wrote:Okay so the actual cut-off time was radioed then? Face meet palm...

I'm jumping back on board of the conspiracy train...malign actors messing with the signal is starting to look like a real possibility. Doesn't NASA have comms sats near the moon that could simply emit a much stronger signal (space-EW basically with a kind of spoofing attack)? Though it would have to be highly directional so as not to be easily detected on Earth.

The mere fact that the planners decided to implement a Cessna pilot model for the mission is a total joke. Having some human input parameters at every critical
stage is absurd. There should be a default pre-programmed trajectory with manual intervention occurring only under emergency conditions, as
reported by onboard systems. The only challenge is the soft landing because of unknown topography details. Getting to the Moon, getting into the
right orbit and then de-orbiting can and should be automatic.

India, who operates on a much lower budget than Roscosmos, is able to achieve this on third attempt.

And everyone knows the quality of something is fully determined by how much you spend... exactly why the US is a hyper power with no other country coming close...

If India gets three attempts did they fire everybody each time after the first and second failure... and did that help?

You sound like a Karen... he needs to be fired because he made a mistake... in fact fire them all for hiring failures in the first place...

Add to that, they produce little of their own tech and use a lot more off the shelf stuff.

Well yeah because Russia buys everything direct from NASA and ESA so there is only personal incompetence that could explain a crash... without any investigation or understanding of what happened.

Roscosmos for most part uses custom made components making it much more expensive project.

Hahahaha... yeah... those washing machines and dryers have all the parts they need so why are they making custom parts for things that have to work in a fucking vacuum in space or on the moon. Obviously they need to stop using washing machine parts and use parts from vacuum cleaners because they work in a Vacuum.

Yet India achieved much more on third attempt than Russia did with all their attempts.

**** off. This was Russias first attempt at something no one had done before, but India gets three attempts... they have failed twice as often and waiting until the technology is mature is cheating isn't it... they should have been trying to launch to the moon in the 1960s shouldn't they?

They got to the moon standing on the shoulders of giants...

If these failures keep up, the government may not be interested in keeping roscosmos as it currently is, split the military arm away and then sell the rest to someone else. Space development would still happen and satellites too, but they would be purely military projects or private.

Privatise... that is always the wests answer... well how exactly is private enterprise working out in the US... Musk has never had a failure because in the US failure has been rebranded as success so every launch is a success...

yes but Glonass, ISS and some satellites have their roots to the leagy of soviet space program

But French and European and US space industries are all brand new fresh new technologies that use nothing from the cold war period... and never a single failure in the west... the Europeans and US are using MIR 2 called the ISS.

But this is a lot of tech that was in development for at least a couple decades.

You give them a trillion dollars and I am sure they will bring out brand new untested technology to use moving forward... because obviously anything a decade old is shit... that was like the dark ages dude.

I wouldn't be surprised if some moron thought it'd be better to disregard some minor troubleshooting just for the chance to "beat the Indians" and because of that, needlessly ran it into the ground. I don't think Putin himself would have cared much though, he seems quite methodical and more interested in long-term things, and dislikes rash decisions.

and

Okay so the actual cut-off time was radioed then? Face meet palm...

I'm jumping back on board of the conspiracy train...malign actors messing with the signal is starting to look like a real possibility. Doesn't NASA have comms sats near the moon that could simply emit a much stronger signal (space-EW basically with a kind of spoofing attack)? Though it would have to be highly directional so as not to be easily detected on Earth.

The terrain around the South pole on the moon is rough, which is why nothing has ever tried to land there before. The burn was manual because they wouldn't know where exactly they were landing hours out so they had to watch the real time numbers as they came in and adjust the trajectory based on that and a mistake or mistakes were made and so the morons here want people fired... well maybe Russia should not piss money away with this sort of bullshit and have no space programme at all.

So now it sounds like the correct signals were sent but it might have been a malfunction... I guess Putin must go.

However, there is definitely a culture of sorts elsewhere that strives to "impress" Putin.

You could claim that, but I am sure there were a few people who couldn't care less what Putin thought and just wanted to be doing something no one had done before and get it done first.

Do you know the names of the guys who were second to the top of Mt Everest?

Most of the mission scientists working on Chandrayan-3 are women, which you will not see in today's cuckservative Russia under the Putin's tradcuck leadership....

Yeah but how many of those women were lesbian or identified as men.

The Russians failed because men were doing it... wow.

The really funny thing is that femenests are having problems because when they need help men are not helping them because when they try to help a woman they get told the women are strong and can do it themselves... it seems modern men must be able to read the minds of women.

Women not wanting a man, getting a job with equal pay to men so they can buy their own house and then they realise they are men but men don't want a relationship with a man...

If Russia wanted to get there earlier, then it should have started their mission earlier. And abandoned its approach to the moon as soon as the 'communication failures' or what was it became apparent. None of this cowboy bullshit. They tried to rush it, it didn't fly.

They took a risk and it didn't pay off and now the little girls are getting pissy and throwing their toys for attention to show how upset they are.

The mere fact that the planners decided to implement a Cessna pilot model for the mission is a total joke. Having some human input parameters at every critical
stage is absurd. There should be a default pre-programmed trajectory with manual intervention occurring only under emergency conditions, as
reported by onboard systems. The only challenge is the soft landing because of unknown topography details. Getting to the Moon, getting into the
right orbit and then de-orbiting can and should be automatic.

Deorbiting satellites on earth leads to danger zones where they think the satellite might hit being tens of thousands of kilometres in area, so how on earth can they predict in weeks previously before they launch the thing where it will land.

During its orbits it was taking measurements about the conditions in the region they were going to land to work out how that will effect their landing parameters but you think it should have been all programmed in three weeks before.

They can't provide a 100% accurate model for landing somewhere they have never landed before.

PapaDragon wrote:

owais.usmani wrote:Amidst all the vile puke on the Luna 25 thread on NSF, I saw this quite interesting post by user "Steven Pietrobon" which I thought should share here as well:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=59370.msg2516797#msg2516797

Also, the Soviet's had many failures in their attempts at landing on the Moon. They had eleven consecutive failures before success! If Russia wants to succeed, they need to build multiples of each spacecraft and keep trying. Building unique one-of-a-kind spacecraft and expecting success for each one is not going to work.

4 Jan 63 Luna (Ye-6 N2). Earth orbit only.
3 Feb 63 Luna (Ye-6 N3). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
2 Apr 63 Luna 4 (Ye-6 N4). Solar orbit after 8,500 km lunar fly-by.
21 Mar 64 Luna (Ye-6 N6). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
20 Apr 64 Luna (Ye-6 N5). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
12 Mar 65 Kosmos 60 (Ye-6 N9). Earth orbit only.
10 Apr 65 Luna (Ye-6 N8). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
9 May 65 Luna 5 (Ye-6 N10). Impact at 31°S x 8°E.
8 Jun 65 Luna 6 (Ye-6 N7). Solar orbit after 160,000 km lunar fly-by.
4 Oct 65 Luna 7 (Ye-6 N11). Impact at 9°N 40°W.
3 Dec 65 Luna 8 (Ye-6 N12). Impact at 9°8'N 63°18'W.
31 Jan 66 Luna 9 (Ye-6 N13). First successful soft lunar landing at 7°8'N 64°33'W.

The soil sample return program had five consecutive failures before success!

14 Jun 69 Luna (Ye-8-5 N402). Failed to reach Earth orbit.
13 Jul 69 Luna 15 (Ye-8-5 N401). Impact at 17°N 60°E.
23 Sep 69 Kosmos 300 (Ye-8-5 N403). Earth orbit only.
22 Oct 69 Kosmos 305 (Ye-8-5 N404). Earth orbit only.
6 Feb 70 Luna (Ye-8-5 N405). Failed to reach Earth orbit.
12 Sep 70 Luna 16 (Ye-8-5 N406). First successful automatic lunar soil sample return.

Jesus Christ, so what little success they did have really was purely by accident  

They should have ditched that fùcking name, if that ain't cursed I don't know what is

Seriously?  Look at the dates...  Sputnik 1 was launched in 1957, so the Soviets suceeded in acquiring lunar soil samples only 13 years after their 1st orbital shot.  They put a probe (Mars-3) down on Mars in 1971, only a year after obtaining the lunar sample (sure, it lost comms soon landing after as the orbited dropped below the local horizon due to fuel leak preventing the planned delta V on orbit insertion).  Pretty impressive to be totally honest.

Failures were inevitable, especially as their general tech levels were significantly lower than US (who also had lots of failures in their early years).

I have provided links in other threads regarding Roscosmos involvement of semiconductor development. I am basing this info on what they provide to us. And what they provide to us is that they make their own parts for majority of the vital structures in their space equipment. I tend to believe them too when they showcase it.

So you want them to make their space craft with duct tape and spit and a bit of chewing gum to save a bit of money... is investing in making their own components money that is being wasted?

Who should they be buying these components from and who will sell parts rated to operate in space and under g loads and temperatres outside those experienced normally on Earths surface?

It is funny that Russia gets damned for not making its own parts and now you are damning them for making the parts they need because it wastes money...

Also, yes, privatization of a sector that is doing very poorly isn't a bad option.

Bullshit.

Most of the problems Russia has experienced with financial outflow because people on boards of organisations and companies prefer to buy western aircraft and western parts and western computers and western software... that is what privatisation is... handing your economy to the wolves.

Being critical against this is healthy you know.

The CIA can't do its job without idiots like you wanting to sell anything of strategic worth to Russia... space exploration is not going to be profitable for a very long time so trying to make it commercial is just stupid.

Healthcare and education only become profitable when you screw the customer...

GarryB wrote:The terrain around the South pole on the moon is rough, which is why nothing has ever tried to land there before. The burn was manual because they wouldn't know where exactly they were landing hours out so they had to watch the real time numbers as they came in and adjust the trajectory based on that and a mistake or mistakes were made and so the morons here want people fired... well maybe Russia should not piss money away with this sort of bullshit and have no space programme at all.

So now it sounds like the correct signals were sent but it might have been a malfunction... I guess Putin must go.

They of course knew where they wanted to land...they had a primary landing site and several backup sites planned out for months, but that wasn't even my point: I'm saying that if the actual engine burn parameters were radioed instead of hard coded or derived strictly from on-spacecraft data storage and sensor data as a result of autonomous analysis then there is the possibility that someone messed with the signal, causing the spacecraft to receive incorrect commands. Roscosmos only confirmed that they sent the correct signal, they didn't confirm that the spacecraft received the correct signal; EW can be used to drown out the right signal and, if done within the scope of a spoofing attack, can deliver a wrong signal instead, that the receiver may pick up thinking it's the right signal. NASA has what they call the DSN (deep space network); they claim that they used it to help Chandrayan-3 land on the moon. If they can emit significantly stronger signals in a highly directional manner than the Russian comms station then they could drown out the Russian signal. Even if the signal was encrypted there's still the possibility they stole the encryption key...it's worth considering this as a possibility for the failure.

And where did I say that the space program should be cancelled or "Putin must go"? How about reading the stuff you reply to instead of going on endless useless rants...you know you don't have to reply to every single post on this forum right?

Roscosmos managers should have been fully aware of NASA assets in range of action and the current political climate.   If they ignored this
then they should all be fired if not shot.   Putin has nothing to do with this fiasco.   He can't control idiots in every sector and cannot shape
the culture that has been there for decades and centuries.   The only responsibility he has is to punish the clowns who screw up or sell out
and to launch organizational reform. Such action is essential to fight the corrupt culture.  

It looks like the civilian branch of Roscosmos needs to be dissolved and built from scratch.  Launch services can be taken over by the military
branch for the duration of this transition.   All science missions and space station activity should be put on ice and reviewed in detail later.
I do not trust that Roscosmos could make the space station mission a success.   We may have some ridiculous catastrophe with loss of
cosmonaut lives with the current clown show.

All the more so because the profit goes to the investors and not to the workers that actually generate the profit.

It is the root cause of why the west is broken... you can make more money with money than with labour.

You just have to look at productivity to work out how wrong things are... the easiest way to improve productivity is to reduce pay or reduce hours for your staff and make them do the same job.

They of course knew where they wanted to land...they had a primary landing site and several backup sites planned out for months, but that wasn't even my point:

Of course they knew where they wanted to land, but they didn't know what conditions would be like and the precise thrust settings to get where they wanted and were using data right up until the crash to modify the burn times to get a good landing.

EW can be used to drown out the right signal and, if done within the scope of a spoofing attack, can deliver a wrong signal instead, that the receiver may pick up thinking it's the right signal.

Paranoid much?

If the game becomes openly jamming the other sides operations then let the fun begin... NASA wont be able to do anything in space and after a few launches of debris into the orbits of GPS satellites they wont be able to find their arses either.

If they can emit significantly stronger signals in a highly directional manner than the Russian comms station then they could drown out the Russian signal. Even if the signal was encrypted there's still the possibility they stole the encryption key...it's worth considering this as a possibility for the failure.

Not impossible but a game that would cost the US dearly moving forward... by the same token Russia would be justified in shooting down HATO ISR assets providing Ukraine forces with information... that will kill a lot of people and result in a few aircraft going down in flames.

And where did I say that the space program should be cancelled or "Putin must go"? How about reading the stuff you reply to instead of going on endless useless rants...you know you don't have to reply to every single post on this forum right?

A few things happen and the poofter brigade start their attacks... and I respond to those children... how else should they be treated... a few bad things happen and they want everyone fired and some big stalin witch hunt... I bet they never ran a business in their lives... or if they did it wasn't for very long.

No, I don't have to respond to every post but I am not ignoring the bullshit pussies trying to stir shit up and start some sort of avalanche.

In the old movies hysterical bitches get slapped... I guess I could give temporary bans to those bitches but I also think it is important for people to see that side of the people... they are clearly children who don't know how to deal with bad news or problems.

Scorpius wrote:The obsession with profit is just ridiculous. If you approach the issue of economics only from the point of view of profit, you all have to die, because buying food is not cheap, but the result is only the transfer of products, since the output is one shit. So it is not economically feasible to feed each of you, you must give way to more cost-effective forms of life!

There is a demand for food, therefore it makes to sell it in return for other goods and services

There is a demand for food, therefore it makes to sell it in return for other goods and services

Yeah Russia, you can sell oil and gas, you don't need to make food or consumer goods for yourself... just buy them from us using the money you earn selling oil and gas.

Well the countries that make space grade electronics and equipment is Russia, China, and the west... and only Russia can be relied upon and China can supply the stuff that doesn't make sense to set up production for because they already produce it in large volumes already.

Making their own equipment makes sense for the job at hand.

Your assertion that the first thing we are saying "profits" isn't correct. It's that clearly in the hands of the beaurocrats, these missions are failing. Not only expensive, but catastrophic failures due to mismanagement.

No, I am asserting that you are little freckle faced girls who fall apart at any bad news and have tantrums and make demands like everyone get fired or why are we even doing this in the first place, lets stop because failure makes me feel bad and I can't handle it yet because emotionally I am a little girl... and it hurts when the other kids say bad things to me like I don't know how to land on the moon any more.

Honey you never landed on the moon and neither did they.

The people sending things to the moon now are not the same people who did it 50 years ago.

So Garry, you propose nothing. In other words, keep the failures and everyone else in place.

What I propose is that they look at what happened and why and work out if they can make any changes to stop it happening again.

You learn more from a failure than you do from success and firing every time someone makes a mistake means you never get experience and never get the chance to learn.

OK. Then what after next failure? Or after that one? Just keep going?

Before India landed their lander no one else had ever done this before... this is their first fucking failure child.

Should we destroy the entire organisation of Roscosmos... will that be enough... do you need Putins head on a plate too?

How about all humanity is destroyed... will that satisfy your tantrum?

Grow up and get some thicker skin.

Mistakes happen, accidents happen, sabotage happens...

Money drain, equipment drain and then eventually human life drain (next space station)?

Everything that was designed and made is valuable... when making and assembling things they learned new ways to do things and better ways to do things, but because it failed you declare it was all for nothing and a big waste of time.

So that means the future of Russian space exploration will be shit because any risk or chance of failure and they wont do it... there is no money if you can't 100% guarantee success every time... so there is not going to be a Russian space programme.

I agree with KVS and others that Roscosmos civilian sector is abysmal amd things need to change.

I don't think you actually get any say in that... but if it makes you feel less insignificant neither do I get any say either.

Maybe privatizing it won't help and may make matters worst. But clearly India is doing something right and Russia isn't.

Listen to China. China has made lots of changes and improvements and is moving forward at a great rate... are they going from poor country to poor country telling those countries what they should or should not be doing, are they demanding those poor countries mimic their actions and decisions to try to replicate their success?

No.

And the reason they are not doing that is because they know what they did worked for them in their country in their conditions in their situation, but that might not translate to any other country and work.

What they say is this is the situation we were in and this is what we did and this is what happened... look at all of it and try to compare to your situation and your conditions and see if you have the same problems and situation we had and if you do you might be able to try what we did to solve these specific problems.

Of course they wont have the same problems or same conditions do different solutions will be needed or the same solutions but implemented in a different way.

India landed a lander on the Moon... good for them, they had one success after several failures.

The way they did things was culturally suited to the way they do things and would likely not work anywhere else.

Those Indian women might have been great together and communicated and cooperated in a way that made things easier and faster and more unified... try the same thing in Russia or the US or UK or France and it might have ended up as one big cat fight.

For all you know it might have worked because of one women holding it all together, so anyone else trying it would fail because they didn't have that key person that held things together and solved conflicts and problems.

BTW, is Indias craft made of duct tape and spit like you said im insinuating? No it isn't. But if it was, then it would make the Russian lander an even greater joke.

I would think that constructing something with duct tape and spit and chewing gum holding everything together would be the opposite of finely machined custom designed high tech components designed and built inhouse, but lets make it a slur against Indians... thank you come again.

I'm uncertain of your position. You go for the attack but you aren't even attempting to read or understand our points. Insulting isn't going to make you even more correct either.

You want to completely change an organisation that has been doing a lot of complex stuff for decades and fire lots of people because of one fucking accident.

Did 11/9 justify the US government of the time and the entire Senate and Congress all being removed from office... turns out Russia actually warned them before hand which was ignored, and it wasn't even the first time OBL had tried to damage the twin towers so pretending they had no idea and it was a surprise just doesn't cut it... no need for any investigation... lets just perform a western media trial with incomplete information and make sweeping statements and hang everyone involved and pick a random foreign country and claim they do it better so lets adopt their method of government...

The lander crashed... GET OVER IT.

Have a cry, go to a gym and punch the crap out of a punching bag, and man up and accept that accidents happen and get over it.

Claiming NASA or the CIA intercepted the beam or sabotage, internal or external, without any evidence is childish.

You can't be married any more because the first mistake your wife makes and she is gone is she?

Burnt dinner... get out bitch...

It would be funny if you weren't serious.