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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

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    Cyberspec

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:23 am

    Werewolf wrote:What Grifel round?

    Can you post source for information on that round?

    It's the new APFSDS round for the T-14's 2A82 gun. Not much official data is available AFAIK. On some forum discussions it's said that it has about 20% better performance than the best western rounds.

    This was posted on the Otvaga forum a couple of years back as possibly being the 'Grifel'

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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:38 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:What Grifel round?

    Can you post source for information on that round?

    It's the new APFSDS round for the T-14's 2A82 gun. Not much official data is available AFAIK. On some forum discussions it's said that it has about 20% better performance than the best western rounds.

    This was posted on the Otvaga forum a couple of years back as possibly being the 'Grifel'


    There are no dimensions of the round mentioned?

    etaepsilonk

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:15 pm

    Werewolf wrote:There are no dimensions of the round mentioned?

    APFSDS length should be about 1 meter.

    Here's how it allegedly should look like:
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:21 pm

    1000mm length was mentioned earlier. But IIRC the mystery is what that figure was actually referring to. The M829A3 is just a hair under 1m in total length, and as Cyberspec said, Grifel may be 20% more powerful. So the projectile (Rod + ballistic tip + tail fin) could be 1m.
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    TR1

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:46 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:There are no dimensions of the round mentioned?

    APFSDS length should be about 1 meter.

    Here's how it allegedly should look like:

    That is 152mm Grifel IIRC.
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:10 pm

    I too remember that image being associated with the 152mm round.

    The 125mm should be similar, at least in appearance.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:11 pm

    Grifel 3 is also a APFSDS?

    akd

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  akd on Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:41 am

    Werewolf wrote:Grifel 3 is also a APFSDS?

    HE-Frag.
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    GarryB

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:20 am

    I thought the Tigr mounted Kornet-EM system had only two channel guidance anyways? Although you could fire multiple missiles, at that distance the missiles might start obstructing each others view back towards the laser.

    The Kornet-EM launchers on the Tigr have two guidance channels... meaning it can track to independent targets and guide as many missiles as it likes at those two targets, though directing two missiles at each target might improve the chances of hitting the target it doesn't make much sense to launch more at one time.

    The laser beams these missiles ride are coded so each missile should be able to determine which signal it should be following and which it should ignore.

    T-14. No others.

    What about towed anti tank 125mm guns?

    But here say its inacurate at big distance. Doesnt say anything about countermeasures. I suppose chaff would be a usefull countermeasure. Like chaff used for radar foul. Or any material that reflect radar or laser.

    It is clearly wrong about accuracy at long range.

    the launch platform directs a very weak laser beam at the target and launches a missile that looks back at the launch platform and sees the laser beam. It manouvers itself into the centre of the beam and flys down the beam and hits the target... smoke and chaff would be totally ineffective as the missile is not looking at the target.

    Grifel 3 is also a APFSDS?

    I suspect Grifel is the family name of the ammo developed for the new 152mm gun.. it looks rather more like a HEAT-FS to me.
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:25 am

    The laser beams these missiles ride are coded so each missile should be able to determine which signal it should be following and which it should ignore.

    From my understanding, the beam consists of a series of lasers each broadcasting a separate digital code. I think there's four separate lasers, arranged to create a four quadrant, "+" patterned, conical beam. The laser in the top left quadrant continuously broadcasts a code that when read by the missile, tells the missile to turn down and to the right. Because of the angle of the lasers, the missile's rear looking sensor will only receive the code of the quadrant it drifted into. All four quadrants point the missile towards the center of the "+". Because of the physics behind the system, for all intents and purposes, it's jam proof as the only way to disrupt the guidance is to position something between the missile and the emission source for the laser, which is usually the launcher.

    Herein lies the possible problem with launching multiple missiles. The second missile in the salvo will physically block the emission source for the first missile. Eventually the first missile will drift out of the second missile's "shadow" and receive the code to correct its path. However, during that period in the shadow it would be unguided. The more missiles there are in the salvo, the less accurate the first missile will be. The obvious solution is to have two offset beams, or channels, so you can launch two missiles and not have them block each others beam. You can also lock onto separate targets if the beams can be independently aimed.

    I don't know how much of a problem this actually is, but given that using separate beams to launch separate missiles is the common practice, I assume it's the more reliable method.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:53 am

    Laser Beam Riders work with "Blik" which is the Weapon guidance control system, like this.





    The System Blik which is the current LBR guidance control can guide two missiles.

    victor1985

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:54 am

    But laser beam is ineffective at long range. Maibe a kore narrower beam at start should increase range
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    GarryB

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:42 am

    But laser beam is ineffective at long range. Maibe a kore narrower beam at start should increase range

    Who said it is ineffective at long range?

    The man portable Kornet-EM can guide missiles to 10km with laser beam riding technology... Vikhr also operates out to about 10km in the standard version...

    Keep in mind that the mention of colours with laser beams is not strictly accurate... the sensors see the different frequencies as colours just like the human eye sees different frequencies of visible light as colours.

    Very simply LBR missiles use a laser beam with a range of frequencies over its width and height.

    A missile looking back at the laser can see its own position within the beam and can manouver to centre itself within the beam.

    A moving launcher (ie in a UCAV for example) means the missile will be constantly moving itself into the centre of the beam, but as long as it remains there and the beam is kept on target the missile should still hit.

    Unlike a TOW where a moving launch platform leads to a snagged wire and then a broken wire and then an ATGM plunging into the ground.

    the advantages of laser beam riding are higher speed and longer range and insensitivity to the target... whether it is shiny or covered in dirt or snow or branches.

    akd

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  akd on Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:23 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]


    Unlike a TOW where a moving launch platform leads to a snagged wire and then a broken wire and then an ATGM plunging into the ground.

    TOW is wireless now.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:38 pm

    akd wrote:
    GarryB wrote:


    Unlike a TOW where a moving launch platform leads to a snagged wire and then a broken wire and then an ATGM plunging into the ground.

    TOW is wireless now.

    Some are, but it still was not really improved in range with the long range variant of only 4750m, not really that great in range and that for a missile that is used on Helicopters Tow2A Aero (A-129).
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    Dima

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Dima on Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:30 pm

    New video of Armata

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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:00 pm


    victor1985

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:59 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Laser Beam Riders work with "Blik" which is the Weapon guidance control system, like this.





    The System Blik which is the current LBR guidance control can guide two missiles.
    The laser beam from picture could be opossite? Larger at start and narrow at the missile
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:11 pm

    If you look at the lower hull in the video, you can see that it's angled.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:26 pm

    The laser beam from picture could be opossite? Larger at start and narrow at the missile

    No, not with the current FLIR's, they would need prisms to change the illumination angle and beam.

    If you look at the lower hull in the video, you can see that it's angled.

    You mean the side of the hull? If so, yes it looks like that.
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:30 pm

    Yeah, the side.

    Anyone have an idea what the odd bit sticking up on the right side of the bustle could be?
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    Regular

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Regular on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:04 pm

    Zivo wrote:Yeah, the side.

    Anyone have an idea what the odd bit sticking up on the right side of the bustle could be?
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:48 am

    Another size comparison. This time from a correctly oriented side profile shot. Overlay is a Leopard 2A6.



    As suspected, the hull is as large as those on western MBT's, but the turret is smaller.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:56 am

    Zivo wrote:Another size comparison. This time from a correctly oriented side profile shot. Overlay is a Leopard 2A6.



    As suspected, the hull is as large as those on western MBT's, but the turret is smaller.

    Which allows the T-14 to shed 10 tons of weight, and reducing ground pressure and maintaining high mobility likely T-90's level of mobility traversing cross-country terrain.
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:03 am

    Which allows the T-14 to shed 10 tons of weight, and reducing ground pressure and maintaining high mobility likely T-90's level of mobility traversing cross-country terrain.

    Armata's going to have an insane power/weight ratio. I cannot wait to see them let this thing loose on a range.

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