[Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

Stealthflanker wrote:
I think Russian will use single piece ammo for Armata.

at this point single piece ammo would actually be detriment to performance of apfsds rounds. now that the projectile part can be as long as single piece ammo, the extra propellant charge would impart more energy than those in the single piece only, simply because you have a lot more propellant.
now i just hope they could make the apfsds reach the roof of the gun/ AL compartment partition if only to squeeze as much length as possible out of penetrator.

collegeboy16 wrote:
at this point single piece ammo would actually be detriment to performance of apfsds rounds. now that the projectile part can be as long as single piece ammo, the extra propellant charge would impart more energy than those in the single piece only, simply because you have a lot more propellant.
now i just hope they could make the apfsds reach the roof of the gun/ AL compartment partition if only to squeeze as much length as possible out of penetrator.

You can offset it by actually making better propellant, with higher impetus and higher progressivity. About penetrator length, it is not determined by whether it's using single or two piece round BUT the length allowed by the storage (e.g) Autoloader.

By having single piece propellant you can actually double the amount of rounds you can carry. In the same manner of how M1TTB carry its ammunition.

But then.. the carousel autoloader layout of Armata is nonexistent at the moment.


Another thing is.. More energy doesn't mean the APFSDS will get "better" ..Yes it may increase muzzle velocity somewhat.. BUT higher propellant impetus and progressivity also means higher flame temperature, more pressure and more wear and tear to the gun.

There is no advantage to making the 125mm ammo on the armata MBT one piece.
With an auto loader the weight is not an issue, and in terms of length to pieces can always be made to fit in smaller places than a much longer single piece and can be manipulated in smaller areas than a single piece.

GarryB wrote:There is no advantage to making the 125mm ammo on the armata MBT one piece.
With an auto loader the weight is not an issue, and in terms of length to pieces can always be made to fit in smaller places than a much longer single piece and can be manipulated in smaller areas than a single piece.

I am not sure about this.

By making two piece ammo, it would mean there has to be additional space for the 2nd piece. Which in turn reducing ammunition capacity.

Stealthflanker wrote:
You can offset it by actually making better propellant, with higher impetus and higher progressivity. About penetrator length, it is not determined by whether it's using single or two piece round BUT the length allowed by the storage (e.g) Autoloader.

but what stops you from using the same better propellant for the extra propellant charges? and exactly yes, projectile length is based on dimension of the storage in this case height of AL compartment (slightly < hull height) as ive said.

Stealthflanker wrote:

By having single piece propellant you can actually double the amount of rounds you can carry. In the same manner of how M1TTB carry its ammunition.

But then.. the carousel autoloader layout of Armata is nonexistent at the moment.  

what good is double the ammo if they cant reliably penetrate the target at combat relevant ranges?

Stealthflanker wrote:

Another thing is.. More energy doesn't mean the APFSDS will get "better" ..Yes it may increase muzzle velocity somewhat.. BUT higher propellant impetus and progressivity also means higher flame temperature, more pressure and more wear and tear to the gun.

Well it depends on the material...
but still nu-uh, more energy actually means you get to do more with your penetrator. case in point is DM-53 out of L/55 and m829a3 out of vanilla L/44. both have said to be comparable performance but the former is a lot shorter and lighter than the latter, how so? why its because its impact velocity "compensates" for the lack of length compared to m829a3.

compare perforation of tungsten @ 1500m/s vs 1750m/s.
Ofc. there is always DU if you want the case for slower rounds with comparable performance, but then again GW syndrome and all that jazz.

Also more pressure is no issue for new gun- its a lot more tougher build now esp. with the fume extractor thingy at the middle gone.

collegeboy16 wrote:
what good is double the ammo if they cant reliably penetrate the target at combat relevant ranges?

What ? Do you think that being single piece limit the length of the penetrator ?

See M829A3. or if you don't like US see German Penetrators. They're all single piece round but sports long rod penetrator.

Stealthflanker wrote:

but still nu-uh, more energy actually means you get to do more with your penetrator. case in point is DM-53 out of L/55 and m829a3 out of vanilla L/44. both have said to be comparable performance but the former is a lot shorter and lighter than the latter, how so? why its because its impact velocity "compensates" for the lack of length compared to m829a3.

compare perforation of tungsten @ 1500m/s vs 1750m/s.
Ofc. there is always DU if you want the case for slower rounds with comparable performance, but then again GW syndrome and all that jazz.

You need longer barrel. Not heavier propellant load. The only thing different between L-44 and L-55 is barrel length. Both US and German rounds use exactly same JA-2 propellant.

Stealthflanker wrote:
See M829A3. or if you don't like US see German Penetrators. They're all single piece round but sports long rod penetrator.

but can an M829A3 or DM-53 penetrate an Armata from the front or even a Relikt equipped T-90A for that matter? former has the length but lacks the energy while the latter has just the opposite problem. combine the strengths of the two(by getting an m829a3 sized tungsten piece and keeping propellant/penetrator mass ratio of dm-53) and you get defeat of at least T-90A w/ Relikt.

Stealthflanker wrote:
You need longer barrel. Not heavier propellant load. The only thing different between L-44 and L-55 is barrel length. Both US and German rounds use exactly same JA-2 propellant.

who said new gun doesnt have longer gun barrel? its just one of ways to increase muzzle velocity- aim is to get close to 20MJ projectile energy on the fly as possible and barrel lengthening is just one of 2 main means to achieve just that.

collegeboy16 wrote:
but can an M829A3 or DM-53 penetrate an Armata from the front or even a Relikt equipped T-90A for that matter? former has the length but lacks the energy while the latter has just the opposite problem. combine the strengths of the two(by getting an m829a3 sized tungsten piece and keeping propellant/penetrator mass ratio of dm-53) and you get defeat of at least T-90A w/ Relikt.

Dunno if Relikt. But i confident M829-A3 can defeat K-5 ERA.

and you may not believe it.. But it is. ERA has a speed limit where it will explode. Reducing Mv to 1.5 km/s will reduce probability of ERA goes explode by 50%. Another means is to reduce contact surface area of the penetrator. (making it tiny and sharp)

There is a page about it in BTVT. Will try finding it.

who said new gun doesnt have longer gun barrel? its just one of ways to increase muzzle velocity- aim is to get close to 20MJ projectile energy on the fly as possible and barrel lengthening is just one of 2 main means to achieve just that.

Then ? Your chart depicts clearly muzzle velocity differences between L-44 and L-55 which contributed by Longer barrel of L-55 Gun.

Stealthflanker wrote:
Dunno if Relikt. But i confident M829-A3 can defeat K-5 ERA.  

and you may not believe it.. But it is. ERA has a speed limit where it will explode. Reducing Mv to 1.5 km/s will reduce probability of ERA goes explode by 50%. Another means is to reduce contact surface area of the penetrator. (making it tiny and sharp)

There is a page about it in BTVT. Will try finding it.

I think that was debunked here a long time ago... googling it

Stealthflanker wrote:
Then ? Your chart depicts clearly muzzle velocity differences between L-44 and L-55 which contributed by Longer barrel of L-55 Gun.

L/55 alone cant provide up to 2km/s MV. thats why the new 2a82 gun reportedly has bigger propellant chamber than previous.

collegeboy16 wrote:
I think that was debunked here a long time ago... googling it

Where's that rebuttal then ?

Stealthflanker wrote:
L/55 alone cant provide up to 2km/s MV. thats why the new 2a82 gun reportedly has bigger propellant chamber than previous.

Will the 2A82 provide 2km/s then ?

and about the report. Where is it ?

If indeed 2A82 has larger chamber.. It would means that it cannot use previous generation rounds without modifications to the rounds.

Stealthflanker wrote:

Where's that rebuttal then ?

working on it. EDIT: I think it has to do with different time scales of operation of Relikt and Kontakt-5. That while m829a3's low velocity will allow it a big chance to not trigger K-5 that slow speed means you spend more time in contact with Relikt's reactive plates- meaning it affects the penetrator more. thats the gist or so i think of it.

Stealthflanker wrote:
L/55 alone cant provide up to 2km/s MV. thats why the new 2a82 gun reportedly has bigger propellant chamber than previous.


Will the 2A82 provide 2km/s  then ?

and about the report. Where is it ?

If indeed 2A82 has larger chamber.. It would means that it cannot use previous generation rounds without modifications to the rounds.

ive only read it on other forums- http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-208.html
and whoopdie doo its not official , so that ones conceded. ill just backpedal to energy increase of 20% over L/55
http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/2014/07/blog-post_14.html
Still, a larger chamber does not mean previous rounds wont fit- they can, its just that they arent fully "pushed in" i imagine in the chamber.

Armata and Kurganetz look nice.

Lol i stole a like from xeno.

He deserves the like for linking the pictures, not me.

question: how do you RELOAD the 32 shot autoloader of the armata if the turret is very compact and there is no possibility to get inside?

cracker wrote:question: how do you RELOAD the 32 shot autoloader of the armata if the turret is very compact and there is no possibility to get inside?

There's no need to get inside at all.

Collegeboy wrote:

working on it. EDIT: I think it has to do with different time scales of operation of Relikt and Kontakt-5. That while m829a3's low velocity will allow it a big chance to not trigger K-5 that slow speed means you spend more time in contact with Relikt's reactive plates- meaning it affects the penetrator more. dunno thats the gist or so i think of it.

Affecting what ? Should the penetrator managed to get through the reactive plate without initiating ERA explosion then it will penetrate all the way as usual.

Relikt however counter this by actually having more sensitivity in its explosive charge. It will initiate at around 1400 m/s speed.

ive only read it on other forums- http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-208.html
and whoopdie doo its not official Laughing , so that ones conceded. ill just backpedal to energy increase of 20% over L/55
http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/2014/07/blog-post_14.html
Still, a larger chamber does not mean previous rounds wont fit- they can, its just that they arent fully "pushed in" i imagine in the chamber.

And i see the gun may have problem ejecting spent cartridge stub if the round is not "fit in"

dude, the leclerc has a BUSTLE AL, how do you reload botom hull caroussel type? you must get inside, also for regular maintenance. Or there is a sor of trapdoor on the turret or the side of the hull? seems dubious.

For ejection, the rim of the propelant casing will be blocked at the entrance of the chamber, like in any gun, that's how you shoot .22 short out of .22 long rifle guns for example.

cracker wrote:dude, the leclerc has a BUSTLE AL, how do you reload botom hull caroussel type? you must get inside, also for regular maintenance. Or there is a sor of trapdoor on the turret or the side of the hull? seems dubious.

For ejection, the rim of the propelant casing will be blocked at the entrance of the chamber, like in any gun, that's how you shoot .22 short out of .22 long rifle guns for example.

I assume that the turret itself has a hatch and the autoloader can be set to "Loading carousel" meaning it extends out and you can place round by round and it storages it.

cracker wrote:dude, the leclerc has a BUSTLE AL, how do you reload botom hull caroussel type? you must get inside, also for regular maintenance. Or there is a sor of trapdoor on the turret or the side of the hull? seems dubious.

Armata likely have VERTICAL Carousel. As M1TTB. So it can be reloaded just like Leclerc But with the round Upside down.

Even if it has Bottom Hull autoloader like T-64 or T-80.. THERE IS NO REASON WHY THE ROUND "CASSETE" CANNOT BE RAISED UP AND LOADED FROM THE OUTSIDE IN THE SAME MANNER AS LECLERC.

Is it really difficult to imagine ?

Maintenance ? What kind of maintenance ? Optics ? Well it's outside. most part of it. Need heavy maintenance ? Then lift up the turret with crane. With turret armor reduced (as there's no man there) it would be lighter. Much lighter than conventional turret.

I have no clue why only the back section of the skirt is attached.

Stealthflanker wrote:
Affecting what ? Should the penetrator managed to get through the reactive plate without initiating ERA explosion then it will penetrate all the way as usual.

Relikt however counter this by actually having more sensitivity in its explosive charge. It will initiate at around 1400 m/s speed.

not only more added sensitivity, but you have a lot more reactive elements as well.

Stealthflanker wrote:
And i see the gun may have problem ejecting spent cartridge stub if the round is not "fit in"

the metal stub at the end doesnt really "go inside" in the propellant chamber as it has a ridge on its edge that prevents it.
the extra chamber volume may come from the longer 150mm (propellant charge diameter) section- if you use legacy projectile and propellant the propellant charge comes up short, and part of the projectile is actually in the 150mm section.

I like how they just bolted four APS grenades on the glacis... good enough.

Zivo wrote:

I like how they just bolted four APS grenades on the glacis... good enough.

And what should they have done?

ult wrote:

Zivo wrote:

I like how they just bolted four APS grenades on the glacis... good enough.

And what should they have done?

Whatever works. I wasn't being sarcastic, I think it's awesome that they're not wasting money on cosmetic finishes.

I think it's humorous. I've seen a lot of ignorant comments screaming "mockup!", "western copies", etc. Then you have this on Kurganets, the most utilitarian APS attachment method I think Ive ever seen. The same morons see something like the PL-01 with its facy sheetmetal armor and they're all "muh gawd"...

The aesthetics of armata indeed needs more work in some of the armor..  some of them
looks like they just atached things on the sides only as the last minute.. Surfaces not aligned.
etc..  Maybe the tank is revolutionary on the inside and in protection.. but in aesthetics they fall short to impress ,looks like a bit lazy design.. but maybe the models are not final.. and just
a premature judgement.