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    Electro-Magnetic Guns

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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed May 16, 2018 11:38 am

    Well in the case of faster and more capable SAMs railguns would serve as higher velocity and more capable close in guns.

    Railguns are theoretically capable of extreme rates of fire and their projectiles will be cheap so I could easily see a railgun based replacement for the AK-630 CIWS.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 17, 2018 1:16 am

    GarryB wrote: I rather suspect other issues like rate of fire and cost per round probably make it interesting but not really there yet.

    "Employees of Vladimir Fortov for two years increased the energy of armament of their installations by 6 times. Natural experiments with a railgun have begun, which are powered by a pulsed induction storage. Such a solution significantly increases the temperature of the "plasma piston" and, accordingly, the velocity of the projectile."



    Looks like this might be a method to speed up reloading. And no 100g is just testing AFAIK not real projectile.




    I seem to remember a German scientist working on armour penetration saying that normally increasing velocity is a great way and an easy way to increase penetration but when you start getting to velocities like 3km per second or more it starts to make more sense to increase mass rather than velocity.

    Above about 3km/s the penetrator pretty much vapourises, so increased speed does not increase further penetration... increased mass allows better penetration then.


    e=0.5*mv2 with enough energy you get through armor regardless what. But we need to live to see it in action. Gun needs soid energy source thus nuclear reactor has ot be near. Can be used anti-ship, or as precision bombardment? AAD perhaps too.

    Unless power souce will ge tminimized.



    In that situation I suspect most development would revolve around shooting down aircraft and satellites.
    The problem is that with improvements in scramjet technology pretty soon missiles will be able to fly at enormous speed too... up to and beyond orbital speed (7km/s+) or even escape velocity (11km/s).

    Depending what is soon. Besides with such speed you dont travel in earth atmosphere. BTW Scramjet theoretically is like orbital speed not escape isnt it? Speed or railgun is only depnding on energy and what you have to do.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 17, 2018 1:21 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Well in the case of faster and more capable SAMs railguns would serve as higher velocity and more capable close in guns.

    I'd see it rather as long range cheap alternative to anti ship missiles. Or AAD.



    Railguns are theoretically capable of extreme rates of fire and their projectiles will be cheap so I could easily see a railgun based replacement for the AK-630 CIWS.


    regardless on reloading energy/time, not sure about plasma temp and cooling of gun...





    Putin: We will pay constant attention to work on new weapons


    MOSCOW , May 15, 2018 , 21:33 - REGNUM Russian leadership will keep the creation of new Russian weapon systems in the field of constant attention, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on May 15.

    Such a statement was made by the head of the Russian state during the military meeting.

    Vladimir Putin stressed that the new Russian strategic weapons not only multiply the defense capability of Russia, but also provides a strategic balance in the world.

    "This year, for the first time, we demonstrated our promising models and a system of weapons that do not have world analogues. They multiply increase the opportunities to ensure Russia's security, provide a strategic balance for 10 years ahead, maintain a strategic balance in the world, "Vladimir Putin said.

    The President noted that the development of new weapons is at different stages of completion and the country's leadership will pay constant attention to these works.

    "We know that they are in different degrees of readiness, we will continue to keep these issues in the field of constant attention, " the Russian president said.

    As REGNUM reported , on March 1, 2018, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the creation of new types of strategic weapons in Russia, whose analogues do not exist in the world.

    First and foremost, we talked about hypersonic missiles that neutralize any missile defense system, which guarantees a retaliatory nuclear strike against any aggressor.

    Подробности: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2415520.html
    Любое использование материалов допускается только при наличии гиперссылки на ИА REGNUM.



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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 17, 2018 4:12 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Well in the case of faster and more capable SAMs railguns would serve as higher velocity and more capable close in guns.

    Railguns are theoretically capable of extreme rates of fire and their projectiles will be cheap so I could easily see a railgun based replacement for the AK-630 CIWS.

    Railguns are a joke, nothing but grasping at straws for an unrealisable wunderwaffe. R&D funds will be spent, but no practical systems will see service with any ability to be a game changer.

    The issues with railguns remain unsolved:

    1) enormous electrical power requirements - you need MW of generation (and fuel to run them) plus capacitors to store the charge. Its expensive, heavy, and takes up a lot of space that could be used for more effective weapons & systems
    2) high G forces on firing are enormous, sufficient to detonate explosives, so your projectiles need to be dumb, little more than shaped lumps of steel. They'll readily penetrate a target but unless they hit a critical system, they will do little consequential damage to a enemy vessels combat potential.
    3) high G forces on firing damage electronics and mechanical steering mechanism, so projectiles will be dumb fired, and will require PRECISE targeting to hit a distant target, like a human sniper. The tracking systems need to locate the targets position, bearing & speed with absolute precision, targeting solution needs to compensate for wind, humidity, local air pressure/density, weather conditions etc, while the aiming systems will need micrometer accuracy & repeatably. Any error in these systems or a tiny delay in firing will result in a miss, and with a dumb projectile without frag or prox fuse, only a direct hit is effective. Try doing that against a incoming hypersonic weapon that is constantly shifting its trajectory by a few arc-seconds/minutes and where you have less than 20 seconds to track, compute, aim & fire...
    4) barrel wear is a serious issue - they literally degrade every time you fire them.

    Saying that a railgun can be used to reliably defeat hypersonic AShMs is divorced from any conceivable reality. Its like saying you can reliably detonate incoming artillery by hitting the shells fuse with a sniper shot...
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu May 17, 2018 8:33 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Railguns are a joke, nothing but grasping at straws for an unrealisable wunderwaffe.  R&D funds will be spent, but no practical systems will see service with any ability to be a game changer.

    The issues with railguns remain unsolved:

    1) enormous electrical power requirements - you need MW of generation (and fuel to run them) plus capacitors to store the charge.  Its expensive, heavy, and takes up a lot of space that could be used for more effective weapons & systems
    2) high G forces on firing are enormous, sufficient to detonate explosives, so your projectiles need to be dumb, little more than shaped lumps of steel.  They'll readily penetrate a target but unless they hit a critical system, they will do little consequential damage to a enemy vessels combat potential.
    3)  high G forces on firing damage electronics and mechanical steering mechanism, so projectiles will be dumb fired, and will require PRECISE targeting to hit a distant target, like a human sniper. The tracking systems need to locate the targets position, bearing & speed with absolute precision, targeting solution needs to compensate for wind, humidity, local air pressure/density, weather conditions etc, while the aiming systems will need micrometer accuracy & repeatably.  Any error in these systems or a tiny delay in firing will result in a miss, and with a dumb projectile without frag or prox fuse, only a direct hit is effective. Try doing that against a incoming hypersonic weapon that is constantly shifting its trajectory by a few arc-seconds/minutes and where you have less than 20 seconds to track, compute, aim & fire...
    4) barrel wear is a serious issue - they literally degrade every time you fire them.

    Saying that a railgun can be used to reliably defeat hypersonic AShMs is divorced from any conceivable reality.  Its like saying you can reliably detonate incoming artillery by hitting the shells fuse with a sniper shot...

    Well its is certainly less absurd than claiming that your railgun will be effective as an anti ship weapon or artillery piece like some retard have (yes I am talking to you general dynamics).

    Teshub

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  Teshub on Thu May 17, 2018 9:59 pm

    5) Part of (4) is that heat buildup is so extreme that it prevents maintaining a rapid rate of fire.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Electro-Magnetic Guns

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 18, 2018 6:59 am

    Well in the case of faster and more capable SAMs railguns would serve as higher velocity and more capable close in guns.

    Railguns are theoretically capable of extreme rates of fire and their projectiles will be cheap so I could easily see a railgun based replacement for the AK-630 CIWS.

    The ideal would be guided rounds for rail guns...

    When you fire a dumb round you have between when you hit fire and when the projectile impacts the target for the target to change direction or speed and create a miss.

    A guided round means better kill probability per shot so you don't need to fire so many rounds...

    Looks like this might be a method to speed up reloading. And no 100g is just testing AFAIK not real projectile.

    If the projectile is moving at 7 km/s then 100 grammes is plenty... a standard WWII full power rifle bullet was generally in the 150-180 grain range, which is about 10-11.5 grammes... ten of those moving at 7km/s would be devastating.

    There are photos of testing of colliisions that were done to test designs for satellites and a tiny 1 gramme paint chip at high speed could penetrate several inches of aluminium armour... armour that would be far too heavy to cover any satellite with... so what do you do?

    Actually the solution was in the very high speeds involved... when the paint chip hits a surface at those sort of speeds (14km/s plus... 7km/s in each direction) the paint chip is vapourised, so instead of very thick heavy armour they just used a thin sheet of aluminium and then 30cm away another thin sheet... perhaps even with holes drilled into it to reduce its weight and then the skin of the satellite... any paint chip that hit the outer skin blew a huge hole in it and the vapourised impactor and the outer skin material then hit the inner layer but in vapourised form.... still very very fast but with almost no mass so it did not penetrate... and the inner skin of the satellite got hit by small amounts of vapourised material through the tiny drilled holes which was not enough to penetrate the few mms of aluminium...

    A piece of steel armour several cms thick would not have done a better job...

    A segmented metal rod with spacers of ceramics or high temperature plastic... when it hits the outer skin of the target the penetrator will break up and spread out the damage... with a mass to go entirely through a conventional aircraft or missile...

    This weapon would fire the projectile inside a Sabot, so the projectile would look very much like an APFSDS round from a tank gun to retain high speed all the way to the target... a scramjet motor could maintain that speed or even improve it on the way to the target and as I mentioned above some sort of manouver capability would be valuable.

    e=0.5*mv2 with enough energy you get through armor regardless what. But we need to live to see it in action. Gun needs soid energy source thus nuclear reactor has ot be near. Can be used anti-ship, or as precision bombardment? AAD perhaps too.

    Unless power souce will ge tminimized.

    Good way for a CVN to poke the eyes out of snooping US satellites and stop any ICBM based attacks on their carrier too.

    Big place like Moscow could use some too I would think.


    Depending what is soon. Besides with such speed you dont travel in earth atmosphere. BTW Scramjet theoretically is like orbital speed not escape isnt it? Speed or railgun is only depnding on energy and what you have to do.

    As long as it keeps travelling through atmosphere it should be able to accelerate... orbital or escape velocity should be possible as long as it does not melt...

    First and foremost, we talked about hypersonic missiles that neutralize any missile defense system, which guarantees a retaliatory nuclear strike against any aggressor.

    So Kinzhal might be launched from MiG-31s in Sakhalin island to attack the ABM systems in Alaska, and from the north of Russia to destroy AEGIS cruisers in the arctic ocean...

    Makes sense.


    Saying that a railgun can be used to reliably defeat hypersonic AShMs is divorced from any conceivable reality. Its like saying you can reliably detonate incoming artillery by hitting the shells fuse with a sniper shot...

    Not a sniper... a group of gatling guns...

    The technology being used in Rail guns is totally applicable to EMALS catapult systems... which are also being developed.

    There was a time when missiles were silly expensive exotic technology and would be a huge waste of time to develop.... just make a bigger gun.

    Projecting a solid kinetic projectile is one thing but all sorts of exotic options exist too... a nice powerful gamma ray burst directed at enemy aircraft... wont shoot down anything but any human crew will be killed.

    5) Part of (4) is that heat buildup is so extreme that it prevents maintaining a rapid rate of fire.

    The technology developed involve super magnets and all sorts of technologies that are useful in lots of other fields.

    Imagine if they could develop a gravity wave generator... no propulsion needed... just counter the gravity holding you down from the mass of the earth and then direct a gravity pull or push wave to move around... it would have an enormous impact on everything...

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