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    Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

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    nemrod
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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  nemrod on Sun May 22, 2016 4:40 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    You sure you mean the PKM?
    Maybe you mean RPD or RPK?
    I mean PKM.
    GarryB wrote:I think you are asking about the AK and the RPK, where the latter is just a larger heavier longer barreled AK.

    Sorry Werewolf and Garry, I missed your answers. Because I had had problems to access to my previous emails, when I accessed I had to read several dozens of notifications, then your very interresting answers were drowned among the others. For that reason I forgot to answer you.
    I used to think that the new Bulletproof vest's kevlar -AR500- could stop any 5.65 and 7.62 mm rafales and I used to think that russian assault rifles as long as RPK, and PKM's LMG does not have future. As I read somewhere the new incoming Bulletproof vest could resist until 12.000 joules, and could resist even against 12.7 mm that produce around 12.500 joules.

    My -false ? tell me if Iam wrong- assumptions came from these videos :






    It shows that the actual 7.62x39 mm -I don't know if the RPK, or PKM are concerned- are useless against body armor level III. For this reason I thought that all assault rifles, and russian LMG could be useless. But I forgot one important thing. This Body Armor was designed during 2000's, however the chinese amnutions AP -showed in these videos- were designed before the 60's. Chinese 7.62x39 mm AP were effective during the 60's, but obviously not nowadays. As Garry, and Werewolf said before, meanwhile the body armor's technology advances, obviously the technology of amnutions evolves in the same way too. I will be curious to see the new chinese, or russian amnutions ap -if they exist of course- nowadays. .
    Moreover, I forgot another critical details. The velocity of the 7.62 could reach 750 m/s, however the AK-74's 5.45x39 could exceed 980 m/s. As the Energie is (M/2)xV², in english Kinetic energy gives the well knwon formula Ec=Ek = ½mv² the AK-74 could produce more energy than the 7.62. It gives 1500 joules for the 7.62, and could exceed 2200 joules for the AK-74 5.45 mm. Enough against this ARM ?
    Moreover the Maximum pressure gives 380.00 MPa for 5.45 mm, meanwhile 355.0 MPa for the 7.62 mm.

    As we observe, the square of the speed is more important than the weight. Hence the caliber's size and the mass is less important than the speed of the projectile. The most issue is the speed. If russians, or US could produce amnutions that overpass 2000 m/s, and reach 3000 m/s I think no body armour could resist. Does it exist in russian's arseanal any 5.45/7.62 -including RPK, PKM, etc...- that could reach 1.800 m/s ?
    PS :I think any ZPU 14.5 mm could without problem perforate any Body armour as it produce until 32.000 joules. But to have a cumbersome ZPU is not optimal in combat areas  Very Happy

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun May 22, 2016 9:22 pm

    AR500 has been around for 10 years...hasn't stopped people from getting guntshots with 7.62R. War is Dynamic...

    nemrod
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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  nemrod on Sun May 22, 2016 9:59 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:AR500 has been around for 10 years...hasn't stopped people from getting guntshots with 7.62R. War is Dynamic...

    Do you mean that Russia -China or any other country that produce AK -developped a new kind of ammunitions that have new velocities, new AP capacities ? If yes, ammunitions with tungsten ? depleted uranium ?

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  Werewolf on Sun May 22, 2016 10:17 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:AR500 has been around for 10 years...hasn't stopped people from getting guntshots with 7.62R. War is Dynamic...

    Do you mean that Russia -China or any other country that produce AK -developped a new kind of ammunitions that have new velocities, new AP capacities ? If yes, ammunitions with tungsten ? depleted uranium ?
     

    There are a shit load of AP rounds capable to pierce any class 3 west, some claim to pierce class 4, do not know that but the issue is that all those rounds that are not 7N22 or 7N1 that are the common rounds, the special rounds like 7N23 or 7N4 are issued to special forces mainly and the reason is obviously that bulletproof wests are not really distrbuted to militaries in quantities regardless of what they claim, if any have it is usually a small contigent which NATO regime puts on an invaded nation but not anything of a real war would see place.

    The 7N23 pierces a 6B5 vest class 3 so does 7N24 5.45x39mm.

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon May 23, 2016 12:36 am

    nemrod wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:AR500 has been around for 10 years...hasn't stopped people from getting guntshots with 7.62R. War is Dynamic...

    Do you mean that Russia -China or any other country that produce AK -developped a new kind of ammunitions that have new velocities, new AP capacities ? If yes, ammunitions with tungsten ? depleted uranium ?
     

    No it only means that the weight of the usual plates and the plate carriers have a shit-load of holes (it's a 10/12kg rig). Whole side is unprotected. Shoulders are unprotected. Neck's unprotected. The groin is unprotected. Grazing/blocked shots are still very traumatic because it's a rather thin plate.


    GarryB
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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 23, 2016 12:11 pm

    As I read somewhere the new incoming Bulletproof vest could resist until 12.000 joules, and could resist even against 12.7 mm that produce around 12.500 joules.

    Energy basically equates to weight or force and speed, so to generate a 12 thousand joule force you can have a small fast impactor, or a heavy slow one... the point is that you can accelerate a very small projectile to a velocity where it has equal energy to a train travelling at 5km/h but the point is that a pin could pass right through you with that sort of force and leave you with a trivial wound... or a ten ton train could slowly crush you as it slowly moves over you.

    even if that vest stopped a 12.7mm round the kinetic energy would smash bones and crush you... and basically kill you without penetrating.

    If that same round with the same energy with a quarter of the mass and double the velocity would punch right through... like a SLAP round.


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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  nemrod on Mon May 23, 2016 10:36 pm

    Thx to all for your answers.
    GarryB wrote:
    or a ten ton train could slowly crush you as it slowly moves over you.

    I realize how my assertion is stupid, nevetheless, I was mislead by videos on Internet seeing AR-500 resisting at .50 -BMG-. Then I believed the assault rifle was pointless, nevertheless, I forgot one detail very capital. During the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, the number of US wounded and disabled is matter of several dozens thousands, if not hundreds thousand of heavily wounded. Iraqi insurgents had only got AK-47, AK-74, and AKM, and US had the state of the art of protection. In spite of that, I concluded that that the bulletproof, or body armour could not protect US Gi's and Marines in significant ways. And overall the impact of bulletproof against AK-47, AKM, AK-74 is negligible AR-500 or not.
    I don't know if the SWATT are better protected, nevertheless, if I was an american soldier I would be angry.

    GarryB wrote:
    ....even if that vest stopped a 12.7mm round the kinetic energy would smash bones and crush you... and basically kill you without penetrating.
    Indeed.




    Werewolf wrote:
    nemrod wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:AR500 has been around for 10 years...hasn't stopped people from getting guntshots with 7.62R. War is Dynamic...

    Do you mean that Russia -China or any other country that produce AK -developped a new kind of ammunitions that have new velocities, new AP capacities ? If yes, ammunitions with tungsten ? depleted uranium ?

    There are a shit load of AP rounds capable to pierce any class 3 west, some claim to pierce class 4, do not know that but the issue is that all those rounds that are not 7N22 or 7N1 that are the common rounds, the special rounds like 7N23 or 7N4 are issued to special forces mainly and the reason is obviously that bulletproof wests are not really distrbuted to militaries in quantities regardless of what they claim, if any have it is usually a small contigent which NATO regime puts on an invaded nation but not anything of a real war would see place.

    The 7N23 pierces a 6B5 vest class 3 so does 7N24 5.45x39mm.

    Guys, friends consider me as a newbie, I do not have your knowledges, many of you are soldiers, and you know very well your subject, however, Iam not.
    I took a quick look but relevant informations about 7N24 are rather rare on Google. Links ?

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  Werewolf on Mon May 23, 2016 10:43 pm

    7N24 is a tungsten core Armor Piercing round of 5.45x39mm, one of the latest rounds for that calibre for class 3 bulletproof vests.


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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  nemrod on Thu May 26, 2016 11:28 pm

    In fact I found this video that testifies the uselessness of Body Armor even reaching Level IV.





    Until this video I used to think that the SWAT were better protected than Marines, and GI's, but finally it is not the case.
    The 7.62 could perforated the AR-500 that could be considered as a state of the art Body Armor Level IV. With only few shots of 7.62 special AP the body armor could be disabled, without needing to to fire rafale. I realized again the impact of US's private companies' communication and the it is not hard to understand the number of US woundeds and disabled in Iraq, and Afghanistan. In Iraq for example, the temperature reached 53°C in Bagdad, could you tell me how to stand this cumbersome armour ?
    Finally guys U are all right. Thx for your explanations.

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 27, 2016 9:22 am

    As shown by the video you posted... when they talk about a vest that will stop round xyz what they are talking about is the performance of one hardened plate about the size of a dinner plate.

    You can see the sides of the plate removed the paint on the steel backing... there are two vertical lines where the sides of the armour plate removed the paint with the bullet impacts, now think of that pressure and force on the sides of the plate on a person... and that was only a 7.62 x 39mm round.

    He didn't say it was armour piercing so I would assume it was only a standard ball round.

    Even with the heaviest armour you are always vulnerable, because the heaviest armour is not complete protection for every part of your body. More importantly the heavier protection slows you down and makes you a bigger slower easier to hit target.

    Flak jackets save lives and reduce injuries and like helmets are worth wearing, but at the end of the day in a war zone you will never be safe.


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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri May 27, 2016 10:20 am

    Their level 4 is composite. Their Level 3 Steel

    stands better this test. Far better, but the traumatic shocks from the hits probably would turn the guy behind the Steel plate into much.

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  nemrod on Fri May 27, 2016 2:43 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Their level 4 is composite. Their Level 3 Steel

    stands better this test. Far better, but the traumatic shocks from the hits probably would turn the guy behind the Steel plate into much.

    Do not forget that tests were done by old ammunitions, meanwhile this body armour was designed recently. It is like you try to penetrate with longbow and arrow against WWII's tank. The result is obvious. It would more interesting if the test was made with more modern ammunitions like 7N24, 7N23 or 7N4 for example.
    Around AR500 I suspect another robbery.

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 28, 2016 11:13 am

    Steel is cheap but relatively heavy and as shown retains protection levels despite multiple impacts.

    Ceramics offer better protection and are lighter, but are expensive and turn to powder when hit so multiple hits greatly reduce protection level.

    Many Russian vests use titanium which is expensive but lighter than steel and better resists multiple hits like steel and unlike ceramics.

    A depleted Uranium penetrator would be especially effective against a steel armour plate as steel reacts with uranium.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat May 28, 2016 11:32 am

    nemrod wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Their level 4 is composite. Their Level 3 Steel

    stands better this test. Far better, but the traumatic shocks from the hits probably would turn the guy behind the Steel plate into much.

    Do not forget that tests were done by old ammunitions, meanwhile this body armour was designed recently. It is like you try to penetrate with longbow and arrow against WWII's tank. The result is obvious. It would more interesting  if the test was made with more modern ammunitions like 7N24, 7N23 or 7N4 for example.
    Around AR500 I suspect another robbery.

    The fact that the traumatic shock on the plate would make your internals look like a bad smoothie is exactly why most of the militaries in the world prefer, by far composite plates. Plus front and back plates would set you up for 10/12kg in 6x8 about 14 kg in 8x10. it's just not workable on the field compared to composites. And if you find yourself in a position you can get shot once, then you'll get shot twice and more.

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