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    INS Vikrant-Future Indian aircraft carriers

    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:01 am

    GarryB wrote:The competition for the MRCA in India was pretty clearly to a budget of 10 billion dollars... it was totally dishonest to enter the competition with the Rafale and then once they "won" say they want 22 billion for the aircraft they needed.

    Totally corrupt... and no real excuse either... everything was laid out.

    Now you are just falling into the sensationalist trap of the Indian media, that is the per unit price the MoD was shooting for.  They knew very well the associated costs for maintenance and missiles would go much higher.  


    Regarding the ships the issues found were not made up and could have been foreseen by both sides... even at 2.5 billion it was a cheap deal as it included the air group too... the original deal was stupid... practically a give away... yet it still took 10 years for them to sign off on it...

    But lets face it... a real deep inspection and the Indians would probably have rejected it outright and they would have no carrier right now.

    It is hard to say what the Russian navy might have decided from there... perhaps they might have upgraded it and put it into Russian service... hard to say.

    You want to apply the unit cost to Russian deals but not the unit cost to French deals.  That is the Indian media again.  The total cost of the Goshkov deal is unknown, there are further cost hikes that the DefMin will not reveal.

    https://www.pressreader.com/india/the-times-of-india-new-delhi-edition/20180402/281977493179835
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:47 am

    Are you trying to suggest French weapons are actually cheap, but really just misunderstood?

    The fact of the matter if you are going to say it was partly Russias fault for not properly examining the state of the ship, then wouldn't it also be fair to accuse France of underhanded play... the Indians didn't want the Rafale... they wanted local production of M2000s and were refused...

    The Russians seem to be able to make Su-30s really cheaply, yet Su-30MKIs seem rather expensive... you already mentioned HALs ability go gouge their own government... are Russian shipyards not allowed to do the same to a good client? Shocked
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:02 pm

    I am suggesting that the Indian media has a bias against French weapons vs Russian weapons. They are more than happy to list the through life cost as the headline figure but when they list Russian prices it is only acquisition cost. They never add the price of weapon packages and maintenance contracts on our stuff.

    The French didn't offer something at one price and then jack it up after money was already transferred. It is about the integrity of contracts.

    Russian shipyards didn't gouge the client, it was the responsibility of Rosoboronexport to do the inspection before offering terms.



    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:05 pm

    It was because when they signed the agreements with Russia, they never signed an actual after sale support. It was "buy the plane, that is it". It was after years they decided to buy an after sale support due to all the issues they experienced, especially with spare parts (which btw was a "sale by order". Yes, Russian jets would be more expensive. But from what I have heard, it is still roughly $50M per aircraft after all the support compared to what, 3x that for Rafale.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:38 am

    There are plenty of Indian newspaper and news sources who are happy to bash Russia and Russian products and thinks the US and France can do no wrong.

    I remember having a discussion with an Indian member who was complaining at the cost of the Su-30MKI, but when he finally came up with figures it was the French and Israeli components that were the expensive fraction of the costs.

    Of course if you want expensive leather seats then expect it to be expensive...

    Conversely the Indian media continuously complained about the cost increases of the Gorshkov, yet I don't remember any complaints about the price of the Rafales, except reporting that the Indian military was not going to buy 126 aircraft at that price and so all that time and effort was wasted.

    Throughout the 1990s a lot of countries saved a lot of money buying products from former users, only to find out that they the spares and support was absent. When those countries went to the manufacturer of the products for spares and support they found it was rather more expensive than they expected... the best time to negotiated a spares and support contract is when you are buying the product... but don't expect the producer to give you a good rate if you bought the product from another customer.... that is no gouging.... that is just business.

    If I am selling cars I can offer you a service deal because of margins, so I can still make good money. If you bought the car from someone else I need to make my money from the spares and support contract so the price goes up... claiming I am overcharging or taking advantage is amusing.

    Of course if I use the extra money I make to go on holiday to get a tan is one thing, if I use the money to upgrade my tools and get extra training so I can do more of my own servicing and not have to outsource it really reflects on me as a professional...
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:09 am

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:26 am

    I can't copy & paste the text, but it's revealing:
    https://www.janes.com/images/assets/840/85840/Arrested_development_Indias_plans_for_second_indigenous_carrier_hampered_by_setbacks.pdf

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