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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:47 am

    Interesting vid... the last rocket launcher shown launching rockets was actually the 220mm Uragan, while the other launchers were firing the 300mm Smerch rockets.

    It looks to me like they are developing lightweight systems for export, but that the Grad and Uragan and Smerch will probably remain in Russian Army service to be replaced eventually by perhaps two vehicles... the standard vehicle of Grad rockets will likely remain the same while the new vehicle for the Iskander system (MZKT) will likely be used for the pallet mounted Tornado-U and Tornado-S.

    The MZKT is smaller and lighter than the old Smerch platform, but not as light as the vehicles depicted in that video above.

    I rather suspect that to save money existing truck platforms will be used for Russian units till new ones are required and when they are they will replace them with newer models using a pallet based reloading system... especially for the larger rockets that can't be hand loaded anyway.

    The reduction of the Grad crews from 6 to 3 suggests an automated loading system perhaps mounted on another truck too.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:33 am

    GarryB wrote:The MZKT is smaller and lighter than the old Smerch platform, but not as light as the vehicles depicted in that video above.

    MZKT is the truck used for Smerch.
    The MZKT is also used in Iskander, S-300, Bereg etc.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:52 am

    A fresh video of Tornado-G from the Southern Military District (20th Motor Rifle Brigade).

    http://www.volgograd-trv.ru/flashN.aspx?id=20079

    And here is the article from the Volgograd TV that aired the video: http://www.volgograd-trv.ru/news.aspx?id=20079

    Both the video and article mention ranges of upto 100 km and the perspective use of cruise missiles on the Tornado-G...at least, that is what I understood with my limited Russian language skills.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

    I rather suspect 100km range and Cruise missiles will be for the larger calibre models... particularly the 300mm.

    Raises interesting questions however as a cruise missile carrying model would be new.

    We have seen two new vehicles... a light truck with one pallet, and a larger MXZT (spelling) truck that is used for the Iskander missile system that includes the standard two ballistic missile version and another Klub related cruise missile version.

    Perhaps with the multiple rocket launchers initially they will simply be upgrades of existing vehicles, so Tornado-G, is an upgraded 122mm Grad as seen in the vid above, while the Tornado-S is an upgraded 300mm Smerch, and the Tornado-U is an upgraded 220mm Uragan.

    Further if there are "cruise missile" members of the family, perhaps they are talking about the cruise missile versions of the Iskander, in which case however should they not also mention long range precision semi ballistic versions as well (ie Iskander itself).

    Would it make sense to have a cruise missile adapted to the pallet design to replace Tochka-U and keep Iskander a separate system on a standardised chassis?

    That would mean that initially they would have Tornado-G,-S,-U, plus Tornado light single pallet and Tornado heavy two pallet, where the latter two can carry pallet versions of the 122, 220, and 300mm rockets or a new cruise missile... perhaps 2 to a pallet with a range of 100-200km.

    There would not be much point to the cruise missile having a very long range because the rocket artillery units they operate with would be to support ground forces and would not likely have the sort of recon assets attached to it to find targets at much more than 150km or so let alone identify such targets and monitor them for an attack.

    Of course these new cruise missiles could use ramjet propulsion and be more like large Kh-31s than subsonic turbojet powered cruise missiles. The higher speed will give the target less time to move or defend itself.

    Most people probably think that just because a weapon as range x that it will always be used at that range, but most of the time it will be used at whatever range they detect the target to be at, and considering it is an artillery unit with its focus on supporting a brigade that it is operating with it would be very unlikely for that unit to be looking for targets 200km away. It would operate at a certain distance from the unit it is supporting and it will be looking around that unit and other friendly units in the area for threats or targets of opportunity. This means that the vast majority of targets would be much more rapidly engaged with rockets.

    Sometimes however a small hard target might present itself and a long range guided missile on hand could be useful. In fact a high speed missile with an armoured warhead designed to either penetrate into a target before exploding, or conversely for exploding in the air above the target and that metal penetrator jacket acting as a fragmentation shell would make it a versatile weapon.

    For use against area targets then a barrage of unguided rockets is ideal, but for the odd hardened point target... like the basement of a tall building a smart and guided weapon that perhaps can be programmed to hit at a 45 degree angle through the second floor up so it penetrates the floor of that level and the ground floor and into the basement before exploding would be a useful weapon.

    For masses of armour forming up to meet the unit you are protecting there are a range of anti armour loads for Smerch, Uragan, and Grad rockets that would be much more effective.

    Equally an infantry unit forming up for an attack on a village or friendly unit, or indeed a patrol... if it can be located precisely could also be attacked with a deluge of steel and fire.

    it is rather like the combination of SPAAG and SAM... they compliment each other... there are expensive sensors and recon systems looking for targets... if they find area targets like groups of enemy vehicles then guided submunitions from unguided rockets is the solution, if it is a point target that individual rockets wont penetrate or is fairly small then a guided missile is the best choice, though realistically it would not often be used at more than the range of the unguided rockets because the role of the unit is to support friendly units in the area so it wont be looking 200kms away for small point targets to hit.

    If the weapon is a ramjet design for closer range targets you could program it to climb as high as it can and then expend as much fuel as it can in an extended AB mode in the dive to accelerate to as high a speed as it can manage to maximise the damage.

    My guesses only of course. Have to wait and see what is really going on.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:02 pm

    I am begining to think that the Hermes missile may be associated with one of the Tornado (G-U-S) systems.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:20 pm


    I rather suspect 100km range and Cruise missiles will be for the larger calibre models... particularly the 300mm.


    GarryB 100 km range match exactly with the claim on an increase of two times and half of the range in respect to the old Grad system (about 40 km).



    http://izvestia.ru/news/523564


    Он отметил, что кроме существующих реактивных снарядов «Торнадо» сможет стрелять и новыми, с увеличенной в 2,5 раза дальностью, с новой начинкой боевой части,


    a "Smerch" with a similar increase would achieve and engagement range between 175 and 225 km !!! (practically similar MLRS divisions would achieve ranges of theatre ballistic missiles Smile )


    About the perspective plan to integrate modules with cruise missiles (in observance to the new Russian Army doctrine stressing on total elements modularity), it was pointed out that the plan included even ballistic missiles !!



    В перспективе модульная система РСЗО «Торнадо» сможет запускать крылатые и баллистические ракеты.

    With "Tornado" system continue to think in terms of MLRS's caliber for the integration of a particular weapon system will lose quickly any sense ; in fact the platform carrying in a particular moment a weapon module will eventually allow the shift ,directly in the field, toward a very different MLRS/cruise missile/ballistic missile module to carry completely different task.





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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:12 am

    I am begining to think that the Hermes missile may be associated with one of the Tornado (G-U-S) systems.

    Good thinking, but the comment from Mindstorm below about a 2.5 times increase in range applied to the 122mm rocket with a 40km range also matches the 100km range claim.

    With a 30kg warhead and a terminally guided payload that raises the question of how the ground based Hermes system would fit in.

    If there is a new small cruise missile to fill the role of Tochka-U then it will likely be used against large heavy targets with its ~500kg warhead. A Hermes battery would fit below that with terminal guidance so the precision of a guided weapon but a small warhead in comparison for point hard targets like tanks or HQ vehicles.

    Interestingly Hermes is about the size of a 122mm rocket as it is 130mm missile body diameter though the rocket booster is 210mm as is the launch tube. That suggests that a new grad rocket could be a two stage missile, perhaps with a reduced calibre missile (to reduce drag) and 122mm calibre booster to maximise thrust and speed. The payload of about 20kgs could be increased to about 30kgs and the guidance and manouvering hardware inside could be replaced by a low energy long burn rocket that overcomes drag and helps the rocket maintain speed to maximise range.

    a "Smerch" with a similar increase would achieve and engagement range between 175 and 225 km !!! (practically similar MLRS divisions would achieve ranges of theatre ballistic missiles Smile )

    Quite true, but I suspect a heavier warhead would be more use than a large increase in flight range which I think you will agree with. The primary purpose of these systems is heavy artillery fire support for a unit or Brigade. An enemy force forming up to make a large scale attack on that unit is the ideal target for a rocket battery. Of course in combat you can be very creative too... an enemy ambush at dusk so they can hit hard and retreat under cover of darkness. If you can channel the enemy as they retreat back up into the hills you can carpet their retreat options with landmines and then as they are trying to pass through these places HE submunitions to pin them till the follow up forces can catch up and rip them a new one.

    About the perspective plan to integrate modules with cruise missiles (in observance to the new Russian Army doctrine stressing on total elements modularity), it was pointed out that the plan included even ballistic missiles !!

    That suggests that the Iskander ballistic system and cruise missile system are going to be fully integrated into the rocket artillery "family".

    Initially there will be Tornado-G/-U/-S based on the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch, and they will be existing vehicles with 122mm, 220mm, and 300mm vehicles.

    They will be upgraded, but new production will be stopped except for export and the new vehicles produced will be Tornado Light, and Tornado-Medium and now of course Iskander ballistic and Iskander Cruise.

    The Tornado Light and Medium will carry one or two Pallets respectively of 122mm, 220mm, and/or 300mm depending on their mission.

    The medium will have the same vehicle chassis as Iskander, but will not be fully interchangable.

    in fact the platform carrying in a particular moment a weapon module will eventually allow the shift ,directly in the field, toward a very different MLRS/cruise missile/ballistic missile module to carry completely different task.

    Will they go as far as to modularise the Iskander ballistic missile and cruise missile into a pallet container?

    If they did that means the Tornado-Light could carry one Iskander or one cruise missile, while Tornado-Medium could carry two of each.

    I rather doubt that the light vehicle could carry that sort of weight however.

    Will be interesting to see how it all develops.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:19 pm

    First video of Tornado-G in live fire exercises:

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:33 am

    Nice video...

    Notice almost total lack of rocket smoke?

    A bit of dust thrown up and the grass was set on fire, and a short trail of smoke when looking from behind that disappeared fairly rapidly.

    Interesting compared to the enormous smoke screens generated previously.
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    Rocket Artilliery Ammunition

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:50 am

    By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:22 am

    By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.


    Ehm....not.


    It actually said that ,already today ,them managed to give to ammunitions of Smerch system a range of 200 km.

    It is a statement released only to render the idea of the level of improvement in range that is possible to achieve (with the application of those domestic up to date technological solutions even to existing systems) with MLRS in this caliber.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:09 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.


    Ehm....not.


    It actually said that ,already today ,them managed to give to ammunitions of Smerch system a range of 200 km.

    It is a statement released only to render the idea of the level of improvement in range that is possible to achieve (with the application of those domestic up to date technological solutions even to existing systems) with MLRS in this caliber.

    Thanks for the correction.
    I hope the extra range is achieved without reducing the size of the warhead.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:16 pm



    Thanks for the correction.

    It is simply a clarification and also one i root for particularly Wink


    I have several times stressed out that almost the totality of parametrical figures circulating on public accessible media about Russian weaponry (even on producer's sites or brochures... Wink ) are always refered to export versions of those systems or very outdated versions of the same systems , for which the revelation of the specifics don't represent anymore a damage or effective reduction of theirs potential, and tactical surprise's edge, in an eventual operational employment against a major enemy.

    In the past years i was literally amused to read, in silence, the comical theories and auto-referential "analysis" (often by part of subjects even selling themselves as experts Laughing ) proposing systems comparisons or tactical scenarios where the crushing advantages in : speed, manoeuvrability, target designation, independent adaptive/cooperative attack profile and inbuilt ECCM measures of Russian cruise missiles like “Kaliber” or “Oniks was.....supposedly....“counterbalanced” by the huge range difference boasted by Western cruise missiles like TLAM-C/D 1200/1600 km against the only...300 km....of Kaliber and Oniks Razz Razz

    The same phenomenon happened with the supposed range of BM-30 and its competitors : BM-30 was since its introduction ,by a very wide margin, the most advanced and devastating MLRS worldwide in its category.
    In the latest years ,however, in several western publications or by part of mercenary journalists - profusely paid to "bash" and tarnish anywhere possible (even plainly subverting cold parameters !) the reputation of Russian weapons to break its link with historical friend Nations ,such as India - the....supposed....range of "Smerch" has been attacked from any direction (at example claiming that the latest version of its Chinese copied version -the PHL03- had much greater engagement range (140 km) than the up to date original in Russian ; naturally Reality is very far from those highly biased and vested positions.


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:15 am

    Unfortunately as in many cases, I have to ask the question: do any of the Smerch units actually have the extended range munitions?

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:38 pm



    Unfortunately as in many cases, I have to ask the question: do any of the Smerch units actually have the extended range munitions?


    Try to ask to yourself the complementary question to this one (you will receive a response much more close to reality...):

    "How much units of 9A52 ,if any, remain today -2012- at still employ the original ammunition developed more than 20 years ago ?"


    Even more you could ask to yourself this other simple question:

    "The range figures i have found in all those years on FSUE "Splav" charts or in its same site (for not say Rosoboronexport's brochures... Wink ) ,and obviously reported in any public accesible media, has been ever representative of domestic version of those MLRS's rocket/missiles ?"

    If you want to aid yourself in finding a response you could try that : select any weapon of which ,at today, you are aware of any parametrical difference between the domestic and the export version and check what figure,between the two, is always reported on the maker's "official" site or charts..... Wink

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    TR1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:26 pm

    Of course - but the fact remains- Russian industry has had no problem making innovative and excellent weapons and munitions, that have barely seen actually unit delivery- or have been delivered in anemic numbers. See tank ammunition, precision munitions in AF units, precision artillery rounds, AAMs etc etc.

    I can't help but to remain unconvinced 200km munitions are in any widespread service.

    I would love to be proved wrong!

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:07 am



    Of course - but the fact remains- Russian industry has had no problem making innovative and excellent weapons and munitions, that have barely seen actually unit delivery- or have been delivered in anemic numbers. See tank ammunition, precision munitions in AF units, precision artillery rounds, AAMs etc etc.

    I can't help but to remain unconvinced 200km munitions are in any widespread service.


    Exist only two main factors contributing to the....at least apparent....scarce ,widespread presence of up-to-date ammunitions among Russian Army and Air Force units in PEACETIME stance :

    1) A truly IMMNESE amount of ammunitions (literally of any type and for any branch of the Armed Forces) inherited from URSS, majority of which with a significative residual operative live and the number and characteristics of which represent still today even an huge overkill against virtually all likely conventional enemy.

    2) The strongly rooted habit (also that inherited from cardinal principles of Soviet Military Doctrine) at information's corruption and denial , through or the controled "leaks" to opposing sides of staged technical documentation or downgraded specimens (in URSS times the so called monkey models) or the direct subtraction ,until possible, from enemy Intel's echelons even of the same physical specimens of the most critical systems (and therefore theirs CONOPS and strong/weak points).


    On the 2008 conflict, for example, has been wrote tons of articles and books but ,up to this time, complementary interests from both parts - Western analysts and Institutions , frustrated by the clamorous Intel's debacle interested ,at least ,in capitalize the instance for attack and attempt to tarnish, as usual, Russian Military's name Razz ,while on the Russian side not only negate to NATO's observers ANY type of information on ANY type of up-to date weaponry or strategic and tactical concept of operations but also promote toward internal public opinion the roundness of the ongoing ,military reform and future substantial increase of military spending Wink - has prevented an honest ,realistic analysis to be conducted .




    This conflict ,that we must never forget, was won in only 5 days and at very TRIVIAL costs (you can only image the length and the stellar costs involved if the same conflict would have been conducted by NATO ; only the Air Campaign would have encompassed more than a month and half of operations Laughing ) ; was a clear example of operation attentively prepared and executed mantaining as central requirement systematic information denial toward NATO's observers and ELINT units preset in the theatre, employing not only almost exclusively the most outdated weaponry available to the divisons in the area but limiting or even avoiding completely any "sensible" EM emission (among the crew of the US Navy "aid ship" purposely prepared and sent to the Black Sea ,likely would be manifested ,in those days, a very high amount of cases of mental disorders and manic depressive syndromes Razz Razz Razz )


    In the meantime T-72B..... T-62 and even ....some T-55...was engaging Georgian ground forces, Russian Navy was destroying Georgian unities only with....P-120 Malakhit...and Russian aircraft avoided like hell the use even only of the most outdated versions of Kh-59 miissiles or KAB-L precision bomb series of which exist a stock pile more than sufficient to desroy several times all main military targets in both Europe and USA Smile


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    Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:58 am

    Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

    MOSCOW, November 19 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is developing new long-range multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) with improved guidance that could allow them to strike targets up to 120 miles (200 km) away, the Defense Ministry's artillery spokesman said on Monday.

    "We have the military-technical potential to create a new generation of MLRS with a range of 200 km," Lt. Col. Nikolai Donyushkin said.

    Russia's artillery currently deploys the 122-mm Grad, 220-mm Uragan, and 300-mm Smerch rocket systems and the improved Tornado-S, Tornado-G, and Uragan 1-M are currently undergoing state acceptance trials. The army is in the process of receiving up to 30 Tornado-G systems this year, replacing the BM-21 Grad.

    The improved Tornado-S is being upgraded with the special GLONASS satellite navigation system used in the Smerch missile system, Donyushkin said. The Tornado-S will have guided rocket rounds enabling it to fire out to 72 miles (120 km).

    "The Tornado-S will have a longer range and increased effectiveness thanks to greater accuracy and the use of new warhead payloads and a reduced launch readiness time of just three minutes," he said.

    The army is gradually moving toward a new level of capability for deploying precision use of long-range rocket artillery, he said.

    "Massed use of high-precision weapons makes it possible to be certain of destroying high-value targets before they can be used on the battlefield by main-force groups. Fewer rounds need to be fired, simplifying logistics," he added.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121119/177581650.html

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:10 pm

    Russia is developing new long-range multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) with improved guidance that could allow them to strike targets up to 120 miles (200 km) away, the Defense Ministry's artillery spokesman said on Monday.

    "We have the military-technical potential to create a new generation of MLRS with a range of 200 km,"



    Simply not correct .

    the original statement is the following:

    "Имеющийся научно-технический задел позволяет решить задачу создания нового поколения РСЗО с дальностью стрельбы более 200 километров", — сказал Донюшкин.


    http://ria.ru/forces/20121119/911230300.html


    "...engagement range superior to 200 km"


    This is not a small detail or a semantic nuance in facts ,already a month ago, the same Nikolai Makarovets (chief designer of the most advanced Russian MLRS) had declared :


    "Торнадо-С" – это конечно управляемые снаряды, управляемые системой "ГЛОНАСС", управляемая автономно, он имеет высокую дальность стрельбы. Мы уже сегодня можем обеспечить дальность того же "Смерча" до 200 км", - рассказал журналистам генеральный директор ФГУП "ГНПП "Сплав" Николай Макаровец."


    http://ria.ru/arms_mm/20121008/769372259.html


    "....already today we can offer a range for actual "Smerch" up to 200 km "


    200 km represent therefore the true "threshold" between the maximum engagement range increase achievable with latests technological breakthrough with legacy "Smerch" and the performance of the the new "Tornado-S".












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    Viktor

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:29 pm

    Nice  thumbsup lots of info about the Smerch lite

    300mm fighting vehicle 9A52-4 "Smerch" (Lite version)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:05 am

    Does that say 120km range?
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    TR1

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    Grad, Uragan, Smerch MRLS

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:20 am

    GarryB wrote:Does that say 120km range?

    Indeed.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:27 am

    any news for further deliveries??
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:05 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Until the end of the year in the Eastern Military District troops will arrive about 20 MLRS "Tornado-G"
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  kvs on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:21 pm

    Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system. They have a totally different physical appearance. Seems like a bad naming choice.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

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