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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:08 pm

    Garry,

    This is the newly opened (March 4) exhibition in Tula.
    Have a good look at the photos on the first 2 rows. They are the parachute deployed guided intelligent warheads of the GRAD.

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/gallery/raketnaya-tehnika-na-vystavke-posvyashchennoy-300-letiyu-nachala-oruzheynogo-dela-v-gorode-tule/

    Example photo:

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:54 pm

    They look like the SBPE-D.

    The top part holds the parachute which is designed to spin as it falls like a sycamore seed.

    The lower part has an IR seeker and a MMW radar sensor... if you can imagine these two narrow field sensors looking directly at where the cylinder is pointing when the parachute is released the munition is high up in the air but as it falls and spins it scans in a circle that gets smaller and smaller as the munition gets closer to the ground.

    If there is a tank or armoured vehicle within that area below the munition the MMW sensor detects the large metal object and the IR sensor looks for IR emissions... either a running engine or a fire.

    If it detects a running engine then it explodes sending a flat disc of metal at the top of the target at a velocity of about 6km/s.

    At this speed the disc collapses into a shuttle cock like shape that hits the roof armour of the vehicle with enormous force and penetrates.

    If it detects the tank or armoured vehicle is on fire then it ignores it and looks for another target.

    If it does not find a target and hits the ground it becomes an anti tank land mine that uses its MMW radar to sense a tank passing over head and detonates its payload into the thin belly of the tank/vehicle.

    The original weapon was developed in 1988 for Smerch 300mm rockets. In about 1996 the new model with the IR sensor was added. These munitions are standard for Grad, Uragan, Smerch, and aerial dropped cluster bombs and KGMU munition dispensers.
    (note the KGMU looks like a cluster bomb but does not leave the weapon pylon... its underside opens up and the munitions are released).

    Thanks for posting... Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:15 am

    BTW they are probably brand new models, perhaps with improved performance and capabilities...

    Just looking at some of the photos around it they might have updated the warhead to be a focussed shaped charge...
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:52 am

    Southern military district has received 20 Tornado-G systems. They will take part in the Victory day parade during May in the city of Rostov-on-Don. These 122mm systems are up to 3 times more effective than the Grad they replace.

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/04/03/tornado/

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:18 am

    would the tornado deploy rockets like this?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:35 am

    would the tornado deploy rockets like this?

    No. Not really.

    The advantage of those laser guided shells is that you can hit point targets accurately with your first shot.

    The advantages of rocket artillery is to hit area targets with a volley of rockets that arrive rapidly over great distances.

    If you were to try to do that with tube artillery the first volley would be a surprise but by the 3rd or 4th volley anything caught in the open would have either been damaged or found cover.

    With rockets there is only one volley and generally it is used not against a single point target like a laser guided shell with tube artillery, but a convoy of vehicles or group.

    The thing is that with Tornado the target will be 40km away where possible or further, while these laser guided weapons... the longest range round is the 152mm Krasnopol-M with a range of about 22km.

    A more useful guided rocket would be a Glonass guided rocket so that you can set specific grid aiming points so you could either just fire a couple of rockets or have each rocket aimed at a specific point in an area around an area target.

    The other option of course is the already in service sensor fused submunition designed to find and kill armoured vehicles.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon May 07, 2012 11:15 am

    I think that this article can render much more clear the subject:


    http://www.izvestia.ru/news/523564



    Briefly, in observance to the new focus on module standardization in future Russian armed Forces (as already easily noticeable with the in-development universal platform of project "Armata" and the universal UKSK VLS ) "Tornado" will employ a single chassis (the last version of BAZ-6950 vehicle) for interchangeable modules in the same calibers of old "Grad", "Uragan" and "Smerch" MLRS systems - 122 mm, 220 mm ,300 mm -.

    The aim is obviously not only to reduce drastically the logistical requirements and tail of MRLS brigades ,the reloading times and in-field repair of damaged or disabled vehicles but also to obtain a far greater operational flexibility on the battlefield.


    Some important particulars :

    1)The three modules will be named Tornado-G (122 mm), Tornado-U (220 mm) , Tornado S (300 mm).

    2)Each vehicle in the configuration of Tornado-G will get TWO 15 barrel modules , while in that of Tornado-S will get TWO 6 barrel modules (this confirm that the light version with a single 6 barrel module was aimed to offer for the export also the 300 mm version to nations with limited budget and requirements.

    3) "Tornado" will be not only capable to employ the very large stock of existing rockets available for the previous versions ,but also the new rockets with new warhead's fillers and range increase of TWO and HALF FOLD .

    4) Among the warhead's options available will be present also intelligence gathering means (likely in the form of programable loitering UAV)

    5) In perspective the Tornado system will see the deployment of modules for the employment of cruise and ballistic missiles .



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    TR1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 07, 2012 10:09 pm

    So, Tornado will be that new chassis that we all thought it was.

    What about those new looking Grads that the news services reported as Tornado-G ? Journalists being dumb?

    Also, why BAZ-6950, I thought that chassis is old.
    And, is it really wise to keep going with 3 separate rocket calibers? Gives you flexibility sure, but when new munitions will have to be introduced, might be a bit of a headache.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  flamming_python on Tue May 08, 2012 2:10 am

    TR1 wrote:So, Tornado will be that new chassis that we all thought it was.

    What about those new looking Grads that the news services reported as Tornado-G ? Journalists being dumb?

    Also, why BAZ-6950, I thought that chassis is old.
    And, is it really wise to keep going with 3 separate rocket calibers? Gives you flexibility sure, but when new munitions will have to be introduced, might be a bit of a headache.

    Initially I was under the impression, that those new-looking Grads were simply upgraded models that incorporated GPS/GLONASS-guided targeting capabilities.

    Alternatively it could indeed be the Tornado system, it's just that the Tornado system is not really a chassis as such; rather some sort of frame or super-module that can be integrated onto the cargo bay, control systems, etc... of a number of different truck models. Then this system itself can be loaded with different caliber modules, depending on the task at hand. Sort of like the Israeli Lynx I guess.

    I think the secound variant is more likely; as it would afford greater flexibility, rather than tying down the system to a specific chassis (in perspective Russian heavy or medium tracked brigades, a tracked chassis can be used, etc...). And also because this is just too much to attribute down to journalistic stupidity; when given a demonstration of this hardware - the journalists wouldn't likely refer to it by this new unknown name 'Tornado', unless the military representatives themselves indicated that as its name.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 08, 2012 9:46 am

    And, is it really wise to keep going with 3 separate rocket calibers? Gives you flexibility sure, but when new munitions will have to be introduced, might be a bit of a headache.

    The different calibres add flexibility, they have different ranges and warhead types, but are of vastly different types and therefore can be applied to different targets in different situations.

    In many ways it is like saying the 125mm main tank gun has too many different ammo types... just because it can use 20 different ammo types doesn't mean it has to carry all those ammo types at once... or even at all.

    And different units might suit different ammo types in different situations.

    The MZKT truck is widely used, including for the Topol-M, various S-300 radar vehicles, the TOR wheeled vehicle, and Iskander ballistic and cruise missile launcher.

    Unification on this one vehicle chassis would mean that Iskander, R-500, and Tornado are all on the same truck platform.

    For the new family chassis concept to work an Armata Heavy brigade (tank or motor rifle) needs to be all Armata chassis vehicles, which means that these MZKT based vehicles must be in independent artillery brigades, and that the artillery component in a brigade must be this modular pallet based system mounted on the appropriate chassis.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 11, 2012 9:29 am

    2B26 Tornado-G on Kamaz-5350 Chassis during military parade in Rostov-On-Don:



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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:05 pm

    Now this is strange...

    The photos above show standard launch tubes for the Grad instead of the new pallet system they were talking about...

    Here is the same truck base with a 6 tube pallet of 300mm rockets:



    I can understand tubes on the old system on the old truck because it means minimal modification, but this new truck chassis would benefit from getting a pallet based system rather than the old fixed tubes...

    Perhaps the 300mm rockets proved too much for the vehicle and they are going for a mix of this light truck with 122mm rockets as standard and the larger truck chassis as used by the Iskander system for the pallet system with the potential to use all three rocket types...
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  George1 on Fri May 11, 2012 1:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:2B26 Tornado-G on Kamaz-5350 Chassis during military parade in Rostov-On-Don:




    Maybe it is a modernization of Grad
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 11, 2012 9:27 pm

    I sense some disappointment from some members here that the system does not use palletized clusters of rockets.
    Consider the following test:

    - Take one palletized vehicle and one fixed launcher old style hand loaded one.
    - Get both vehicles to fire their load in anger at the enemy positions.
    - Get both vehicles to reload: the crew of old system with fixed tubes will require 10 minutes of reloading time before firing again. The palletized system will probably need about the same amount of time to offload the used pallet and replace it with a fresh pallet. So, there is not much difference in firepower if the pallet is 40 rocket strong (in fact it contains only 30 rounds).
    - Now, think of it this way: the palletized system needs a special vehicle equipped with a crane. The crane is not needed for the old system....Hey, what if that crane equipped vehicle is another rocket launcher vehicle???
    Do you get it now? The palletized system's firepower is less than the old fixed tubes system.

    However, if you move up to the Uragan (and Smerch). Manual loading is out of question because of the rocket's size and weight. The crane equipped vehicle is a necessity. So, the palletized cluster loads make sense for the Uragan and Smerch. For the smaller Grads, the pallets are actually a disadvantage.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 11, 2012 9:33 pm

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/223569.html


    That ain't Tornado.

    Media confused Tornado with modernized Grad. Tornado has not yet been delivered to units.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 12, 2012 2:48 am

    Maybe it is a modernization of Grad

    More than just an upgrade when they change the vehicle chassis to a new truck.

    I sense some disappointment from some members here that the system does not use palletized clusters of rockets.

    Not so much disappointment, as confusion.

    The previous set of photos showed the old truck with new systems/automation, the above set show a new truck with the old rocket setup.

    The main reason I like the palletised rockets is because they can reduce the number of chassis types and have different rocket options for different vehicles.

    The chassis above is the light vehicle that can replace Grad... it will be lighter and cheaper than the larger vehicle and will be able to operate with lighter units including on mountain paths and cross country that would bog down a heavier larger vehicle. The other advantage is low cost so while it can carry 122mm and 220mm and 300mm rockets it can operate is all sorts of terrain and can be afforded in larger numbers.

    The other vehicle based on the trucks used by the Iskander family of ballistic and cruise missiles can replace the Uragan and Smerch with a wide choice of rockets.

    THe lower cost of these vehicles to buy and to operate means they can afford to put them into service and still afford tube artillery as well... the latter can include 152mm, and 203mm guns and 120mm and 240mm mortars.

    - Get both vehicles to reload: the crew of old system with fixed tubes will require 10 minutes of reloading time before firing again. The palletized system will probably need about the same amount of time to offload the used pallet and replace it with a fresh pallet. So, there is not much difference in firepower if the pallet is 40 rocket strong (in fact it contains only 30 rounds).

    More importantly against a sophisticated enemy even if reloading took 3 minutes that would leave the battery vulnerable to counter battery fire. A more realistic procedure is to fire and then move and reload once you get to your new location. Even if it takes 20 minutes to reload after you arrive that doesn't matter because the meteorological unit needs to release a sounding balloon and track it with radar to determine wind speed at different altitudes before they can calculate aiming tables to work out where the guns need to aim to hit their next targets. The excellent range of Russian rockets means there are likely several batteries in range of the target so even when one is moving you will still have it on call for use.

    For the smaller Grads, the pallets are actually a disadvantage.

    With a crane fitted to the launch vehicle or the vehicle carrying replacement pallets by using pallets you can reduce the number of men in a battery... further reduced with automation of navigation and aiming etc.

    Having rockets loaded into pallets means no problems with weather or dirt and faster loading.

    Only in a COIN situation would you remain and continue to fire at the enemy.

    Pallets are not a super solution, but they have some advantages... especially with the heavier rocket types.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  Dima on Sat May 12, 2012 12:51 pm

    George1 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:2B26 Tornado-G on Kamaz-5350 Chassis during military parade in Rostov-On-Don:

    https://redcdn.net/ihimizer/img836/2125/gallimgphpphotorepid62b.jpg

    https://redcdn.net/ihimizer/img196/989/62fc7eb75b73.jpg

    Maybe it is a modernization of Grad
    Modernized version of Grad was ready way back. This looks like just a platform change from Ural o Kamaz.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 14, 2012 9:14 pm

    9 May Parade in Vladikavkaz.

    The commentator mentioned that these latest version of the Grad are called Tornado.



    Full video below. Tornado's came in right afterr the BTR-82A column at around 30:00 in the video.



    Edit: Damn, I had no problems embedding videos until recently. Why doesn't the feature work with me anymore????
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:36 am

    Tornado-G in the inventory of the 20th Motor Rifle Brigade in volgograd region.
    Lots of photos:
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/304341.html#cutid1

    ...and a video:
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:16 pm

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:47 am

    Interesting vid... the last rocket launcher shown launching rockets was actually the 220mm Uragan, while the other launchers were firing the 300mm Smerch rockets.

    It looks to me like they are developing lightweight systems for export, but that the Grad and Uragan and Smerch will probably remain in Russian Army service to be replaced eventually by perhaps two vehicles... the standard vehicle of Grad rockets will likely remain the same while the new vehicle for the Iskander system (MZKT) will likely be used for the pallet mounted Tornado-U and Tornado-S.

    The MZKT is smaller and lighter than the old Smerch platform, but not as light as the vehicles depicted in that video above.

    I rather suspect that to save money existing truck platforms will be used for Russian units till new ones are required and when they are they will replace them with newer models using a pallet based reloading system... especially for the larger rockets that can't be hand loaded anyway.

    The reduction of the Grad crews from 6 to 3 suggests an automated loading system perhaps mounted on another truck too.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:33 am

    GarryB wrote:The MZKT is smaller and lighter than the old Smerch platform, but not as light as the vehicles depicted in that video above.

    MZKT is the truck used for Smerch.
    The MZKT is also used in Iskander, S-300, Bereg etc.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:52 am

    A fresh video of Tornado-G from the Southern Military District (20th Motor Rifle Brigade).

    http://www.volgograd-trv.ru/flashN.aspx?id=20079

    And here is the article from the Volgograd TV that aired the video: http://www.volgograd-trv.ru/news.aspx?id=20079

    Both the video and article mention ranges of upto 100 km and the perspective use of cruise missiles on the Tornado-G...at least, that is what I understood with my limited Russian language skills.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

    I rather suspect 100km range and Cruise missiles will be for the larger calibre models... particularly the 300mm.

    Raises interesting questions however as a cruise missile carrying model would be new.

    We have seen two new vehicles... a light truck with one pallet, and a larger MXZT (spelling) truck that is used for the Iskander missile system that includes the standard two ballistic missile version and another Klub related cruise missile version.

    Perhaps with the multiple rocket launchers initially they will simply be upgrades of existing vehicles, so Tornado-G, is an upgraded 122mm Grad as seen in the vid above, while the Tornado-S is an upgraded 300mm Smerch, and the Tornado-U is an upgraded 220mm Uragan.

    Further if there are "cruise missile" members of the family, perhaps they are talking about the cruise missile versions of the Iskander, in which case however should they not also mention long range precision semi ballistic versions as well (ie Iskander itself).

    Would it make sense to have a cruise missile adapted to the pallet design to replace Tochka-U and keep Iskander a separate system on a standardised chassis?

    That would mean that initially they would have Tornado-G,-S,-U, plus Tornado light single pallet and Tornado heavy two pallet, where the latter two can carry pallet versions of the 122, 220, and 300mm rockets or a new cruise missile... perhaps 2 to a pallet with a range of 100-200km.

    There would not be much point to the cruise missile having a very long range because the rocket artillery units they operate with would be to support ground forces and would not likely have the sort of recon assets attached to it to find targets at much more than 150km or so let alone identify such targets and monitor them for an attack.

    Of course these new cruise missiles could use ramjet propulsion and be more like large Kh-31s than subsonic turbojet powered cruise missiles. The higher speed will give the target less time to move or defend itself.

    Most people probably think that just because a weapon as range x that it will always be used at that range, but most of the time it will be used at whatever range they detect the target to be at, and considering it is an artillery unit with its focus on supporting a brigade that it is operating with it would be very unlikely for that unit to be looking for targets 200km away. It would operate at a certain distance from the unit it is supporting and it will be looking around that unit and other friendly units in the area for threats or targets of opportunity. This means that the vast majority of targets would be much more rapidly engaged with rockets.

    Sometimes however a small hard target might present itself and a long range guided missile on hand could be useful. In fact a high speed missile with an armoured warhead designed to either penetrate into a target before exploding, or conversely for exploding in the air above the target and that metal penetrator jacket acting as a fragmentation shell would make it a versatile weapon.

    For use against area targets then a barrage of unguided rockets is ideal, but for the odd hardened point target... like the basement of a tall building a smart and guided weapon that perhaps can be programmed to hit at a 45 degree angle through the second floor up so it penetrates the floor of that level and the ground floor and into the basement before exploding would be a useful weapon.

    For masses of armour forming up to meet the unit you are protecting there are a range of anti armour loads for Smerch, Uragan, and Grad rockets that would be much more effective.

    Equally an infantry unit forming up for an attack on a village or friendly unit, or indeed a patrol... if it can be located precisely could also be attacked with a deluge of steel and fire.

    it is rather like the combination of SPAAG and SAM... they compliment each other... there are expensive sensors and recon systems looking for targets... if they find area targets like groups of enemy vehicles then guided submunitions from unguided rockets is the solution, if it is a point target that individual rockets wont penetrate or is fairly small then a guided missile is the best choice, though realistically it would not often be used at more than the range of the unguided rockets because the role of the unit is to support friendly units in the area so it wont be looking 200kms away for small point targets to hit.

    If the weapon is a ramjet design for closer range targets you could program it to climb as high as it can and then expend as much fuel as it can in an extended AB mode in the dive to accelerate to as high a speed as it can manage to maximise the damage.

    My guesses only of course. Have to wait and see what is really going on.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:02 pm

    I am begining to think that the Hermes missile may be associated with one of the Tornado (G-U-S) systems.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

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