Novorossiya Armed Forces (NAF)

JohninMK wrote:

franco wrote:Interfax news - Around 8,000 Ukrainian officers sided with enemy in Crimea, Donbas - Ukraine's military prosecutor general

Considering 2,600 joined the Russian Armed Forces plus 500-1,000 the Russian Border Guard, Coast Guard and Troops of the Interior. That leaves around 4,500 to man the NAF... guess they don't need those thousands of Russian officers as claimed.

Think the guy in Kiev broke the 8000 down as 5000 'police' and 3000 military went East. Not necessarily 'officers'.

Sorry, caught part of that with my edit.

Does NAF have AGS-30?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGS-30

Flagship Victory wrote:Does NAF have AGS-30?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGS-30

Does the UAF?

Have seen large numbers of AGS-17's though.

franco wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:Does NAF have AGS-30?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGS-30

Does the UAF?

Have seen large numbers of AGS-17's though.

Maidan does not have. Introduced in 1995 after USSR.

Class of new recruits finishing basic training and getting sworn into the NAF in Lugansk;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_jcfXn6ow

Have seen an updated version of the Donetsk Republic ORBAT

1ST Army Corps (Donetsk)

1st Motor Rifle Brigade "Slavyansk" - Komsomolskoe (area south of Donetsk)
3rd Motor Rifle Brigade "Berkut" - Gorlovka (Gorlovka and area to Lugansk Republic)
5th Motor Rifle Brigade "Hold" - Donetsk (Donetsk area)
100th Motor Rifle Brigade "Republican Guard" - Donetsk (reserve force)
9th Motor Rifle Regiment - Novoazovsk (area bordering Mariupol)
11th Motor Rifle Regiment - Makeevka (area between Donetsk and Gorlovka)

Artillery Brigade "Kalmius" - (former miner division) heavy artillery

Military Commandant Regiment - military police security type force. Probably includes reconnaissance and reaction battalions plus companies/platoons stationed throughout Republic

Independent battalions ( 8 ) - appears to include a Tank, Air Defense, Reconnaissance and 2 Spetsnaz type (?) plus support

Territorial Defense battalions ( 5 ) - may be reservist?

Other - appears to be a company each of Sigint and EW

Note - Sparta and Somalia battalions seem to have disappeared as Independent units but instead there are new Motor Rifle Regiments in the general location both were at.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1451993.html

Size of Novorussian forces from Ukrainian side of view. From their report there is around 30.000 to 40.000 soldiers, but Novorussian army have around 450 tanks, 900 armored vehicles and 540 peaces of artillery and MRLSs. If we count mortars, than Novorussian army is not much behind Ukrainian army in tanks and artillery and I'm sure, they have more soldiers than that.

I think, Ukrainian offensive doesn't have a lot of chances to success. Novorussian army is too strong in armor and artillery, specially if we have in mind, how precise Novorussian artillery is in hitting ukrainian positions and wiping them out and that Novorussian artillery now also have Smerches, Uragans, Pions and Msta-S howitzers.

medo wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1451993.html

Size of Novorussian forces from Ukrainian side of view. From their report there is around 30.000 to 40.000 soldiers, but Novorussian army have around 450 tanks, 900 armored vehicles and 540 peaces of artillery and MRLSs. If we count mortars, than Novorussian army is not much behind Ukrainian army in tanks and artillery and I'm sure, they have more soldiers than that.

I think, Ukrainian offensive doesn't have a lot of chances to success. Novorussian army is too strong in armor and artillery, specially if we have in mind, how precise Novorussian artillery is in hitting ukrainian positions and wiping them out and that Novorussian artillery now also have Smerches, Uragans, Pions and Msta-S howitzers.

Interesting in that the Ukrainians are claiming the Russians to have 15 MR Battle Groups and 6 Tank Battle Groups inside Donbas plus another 39 MR and 14 Tank Battle Groups across the border.
A Motor Rifle battle group is ~750 men and normally includes a MR battalion supported by 10 tanks, 6 MRL, 6 SPH and other units.
A Tank battle group is ~500 men and normally includes a 31- tank battalion supported by a MR company, 6 SPH and other units.
The total of the whole Russian Army is presently 5 Tank brigades or regiments (15 battle groups) plus about 35 MR brigades or regiments (105 battle groups).

If Ukraine receives not gifts of new warfare, I tend to think that the NAF can prevail using the less modern warfare still available.

Of course the NAF will use the warfare captured to Ukraine in Novorussia, the warfare captured to Ukraine in Crimea that is not useful for the defense of Crimea, and other available warfare that is around but is not related to the Russian Armed Forces (BPM-97). This only covers all the loses of warfare that the NAF had until now, except the T-72.

Note that as Abkhazia and South Ossetia can help freely to Novorussia, then I would not be surprised to see Abkhazian and South Ossetian T-55 in the war.

Also it seems to me that more warfare can be needed (and used thoroughly):
- Man-portable arms of all the types (Surface-Surface, Air Defense, Anti-Tank, Man-Portable Artillery,...)
- Heavy Towed artillery of models still active.
- The oldest IFVs and APCs of models still active.
- Some Tanks of models still active. (It would be very logical to see used the T-80s instead of the T-72s).

Note that I do not think T-55, PT-76, BTR-60, T-64 and other old warfare retired years ago from active service have been or is available, since I do not see enough number of them between the loses of Novorussia.

Really I'm not sure if more would be indispensable for the NAF vs the Ukranian Armed Forces:
- Combat aircrafts seems not indispensable. Only someone captured to Ukraine is being used.
- Combat helicopters seems not indispensable. They are not being used.
- Heavy mobile Air Defense systems seems not indispensable vs the current Ukranian Air Force. They are not being used.
- Heavy mobile Artillery seems not indispensable since it seems easier to introduce equivalent towed artillery.
- Heavy mobile Surface-Surface systems? It is my doubt. Do you think aditional to the captured BM-21 would be indispensable for the NAF to prevail over the UAF?

eehnie wrote:If Ukraine receives not gifts of new warfare, I tend to think that the NAF can prevail using the less modern warfare still available.

Of course the NAF will use the warfare captured to Ukraine in Novorussia, the warfare captured to Ukraine in Crimea that is not useful for the defense of Crimea, and other available warfare that is around but is not related to the Russian Armed Forces (BPM-97). This only covers all the loses of warfare that the NAF had until now, except the T-72.

Note that as Abkhazia and South Ossetia can help freely to Novorussia, then I would not be surprised to see Abkhazian and South Ossetian T-55 in the war.

Also it seems to me that more warfare can be needed (and used thoroughly):
- Man-portable arms of all the types (Surface-Surface, Air Defense, Anti-Tank, Man-Portable Artillery,...)
- Heavy Towed artillery of models still active.
- The oldest IFVs and APCs of models still active.
- Some Tanks of models still active. (It would be very logical to see used the T-80s instead of the T-72s).

Note that I do not think T-55, PT-76, BTR-60, T-64 and other old warfare retired years ago from active service have been or is available, since I do not see enough number of them between the loses of Novorussia.

Really I'm not sure if more would be indispensable for the NAF vs the Ukranian Armed Forces:
- Combat aircrafts seems not indispensable. Only someone captured to Ukraine is being used.
- Combat helicopters seems not indispensable. They are not being used.
- Heavy mobile Air Defense systems seems not indispensable vs the current Ukranian Air Force. They are not being used.
- Heavy mobile Artillery seems not indispensable since it seems easier to introduce equivalent towed artillery.
- Heavy mobile Surface-Surface systems? It is my doubt. Do you think aditional to the captured BM-21 would be indispensable for the NAF to prevail over the UAF?

Rule #1 - Russia is not supplying weapons to the NAF. That is the official position of the Russian government so at all times attempts will be made to preserve that image.

- T-55 would only be useful IMO against a low tech infantry force, so don't see that happening.
- The MBT of the Ukrainian Army is the T-64B. The T-72's and T-80's were put in storage for use in sales to foreign armies. Sales of the T-80's were not very successful do to the high cost of operating them so they were placed in open storage the past 20+ years. I have seen estimates that only 10% are salvageable after much work. A lot of T-72's were sold but the remainder were kept in better storage as potential sales. They are being placed back in service.
- For SAM's, the NAF appear to have 8 Sa-8b and 2-3 times that Sa-13. As for any Buk, who knows? It is possible because Buk's were stationed at 2 bases that the NAF occupied while the UAF claim that all Buk's were removed or destroyed prior to them withdrawing.
- The NAF does not appear to have many 152mm SP 2S3's or 2S19's (~5) so towed 152mm's seem to be prevalent.
- The NAF does have a few Smerch and Urgans but not too many. There was 1 Tochka captured but it blow up apparently.

The NAF claim that the Ukrainians have in the Donbas and surrounding regions;
- 450 tanks
- 2500 armored vehicles
- 5 SSM
- 230 MRL
- 1050 artillery
- 3500 anti-tank weapons (RPG's and ATGM's)

The Ukrainians claim the NAF has;
- 368 tanks
- 940 armored vehicles
- 198 MRL
- 375 artillery

Interesting article on the Reformed Ukrainian Army;
http://southfront.org/kiev-regime-army-during-the-2015-summer-campaign/

franco wrote:Rule #1 - Russia is not supplying weapons to the NAF. That is the official position of the Russian government so at all times attempts will be made to preserve that image.

- T-55 would only be useful IMO against a low tech infantry force, so don't see that happening.
- The MBT of the Ukrainian Army is the T-64B. The T-72's and T-80's were put in storage for use in sales to foreign armies. Sales of the T-80's were not very successful do to the high cost of operating them so they were placed in open storage the past 20+ years. I have seen estimates that only 10% are salvageable after much work. A lot of T-72's were sold but the remainder were kept in better storage as potential sales. They are being placed back in service.
- For SAM's, the NAF appear to have 8 Sa-8b and 2-3 times that Sa-13. As for any Buk, who knows? It is possible because Buk's were stationed at 2 bases that the NAF occupied while the UAF claim that all Buk's were removed or destroyed prior to them withdrawing.  
- The NAF does not appear to have many 152mm SP 2S3's or 2S19's (~5) so towed 152mm's seem to be prevalent.
- The NAF does have a few Smerch and Urgans but not too many. There was 1 Tochka captured but it blow up apparently.

My point was not to discuss the Russian official position )

About the T-55, I tend to think that Abkhazia and South Ossetia would have the same trouble in their own conflicts, then I would not expect their rulers to keep them until scraped instead of using them when still can have some chance in an environment were Ukraine begins to have worse warfare.

franco wrote:The NAF claim that the Ukrainians have in the Donbas and surrounding regions;
- 450 tanks
- 2500 armored vehicles
- 5 SSM
- 230 MRL
- 1050 artillery
- 3500 anti-tank weapons (RPG's and ATGM's)

The Ukrainians claim the NAF has;
- 368 tanks
- 940 armored vehicles
- 198 MRL
- 375 artillery

Do you think it would be posible the NAF to prevail without MRLS (BM-21 basically)?

It would be posible with some reinforcement or the BM-21 would be indispensable?

Surely they can have available:
- Man-portable arms of all the types (Surface-Surface, Air Defense, Anti-Tank, Man-Portable Artillery,...)
- Heavy Towed artillery (2A29 MT-12 Rapira, 2A18M D-30, 2A36 GiatsintB, 2B11 2S12 Sani, 2B16 NonaK, 2A65B MstaB)
- IFVs and APCs (BTR-70, BMD-1, BMP-1, BRMD-2,...)
- Tanks (T-80 or T-72)

Do you think it would be posible the NAF to prevail without MRLS (BM-21 basically)?

It would be posible with some reinforcement or the BM-21 would be indispensable?

According to the Ukrainians the NAF already has 198 MRLS. I don't know how many they actually do have, but 80-90% of those they do would be BM-21.

Author takes a look at the equipment available to the UAF;
http://southfront.org/kievs-losing-war-of-attrition/?COLLCC=439099083

franco wrote:Author takes a look at the equipment available to the UAF;
http://southfront.org/kievs-losing-war-of-attrition/?COLLCC=439099083

Like I said sometime ago, Ukrainian army is now deep in reserves and they bring to the front all they have in working conditions. What remain in reserves will be cannibalized for spare parts to keep at least some equipment operational.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1460517.html

Considering, that Sudokompozit from Crimea produce komposite parts for Oplot tanks and BTR-4 armored vehicles, I doubt Ukrainian industry is able to produce much of those new tanks and armored vehicles. There is also a good question, how many of parts for them were also produced in Novorussian factories. I think there is a lot of reasons, why Ukraine could depend only on cannibalizing reserve stock for spare parts and will soon run out of them.

Novorussia have advantage here in their heavy industry, which could repair equipment and produce parts as well as they could get reserve parts from Russia, which produce all those equipment. Ukrainian ammunition factory is also in Lugansk in Novorussia, so Novorussian army receive factory new ammunition, while Ukrainian army is dependent on old stocks. It will not last long, when Novorussian army will become better armed than Ukrainian army with more tanks, armored vehicles and artillery. I think this offensive, which Ukrainian side is preparing to start will be the last from Ukrainian side. After that iniciative will be on Novorussian side as they will become stronger and better armed.

franco wrote:Author takes a look at the equipment available to the UAF;
http://southfront.org/kievs-losing-war-of-attrition/?COLLCC=439099083

Has there been any images or videos of the T55s mentioned. Other than the T54 aquired by the NAF early last year this is the first I've heard of these tanks being used in this war (excluding recovery vehicles based on the T55 hull).

VARGR198 wrote:

franco wrote:Author takes a look at the equipment available to the UAF;
http://southfront.org/kievs-losing-war-of-attrition/?COLLCC=439099083

Has there been any images or videos of the T55s mentioned. Other than the T54 aquired by the NAF early last year this is the first I've heard of  these tanks being used in this war (excluding recovery vehicles based on the T55 hull).

I don't see any around. Can remember seeing a picture but not sure if it wasn't in Syria. Don't believe it was more then a couple of tanks that one of the Ukrainian volunteer militia groups got their hands on for lack of anything else. If they have a hard time keeping the new models working would be surprised if they lasted long.

NAF Order of Battle (ORBAT)

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1451993.html

Last month the Office of the President of Ukraine released the ORBAT of the NAF and that of the Russian troops they claimed where in Donbass or just over the border in Russia. I posted previously in regards to the Russian troops and today would like to focus on the NAF ORBAT. Overall I believe their information to be fairly accurate.

2 Army Corps - the NAF is divided into 2 Army Corps. One for Donetsk and one for Luhansk.

7 Mechanized or MotorRifle brigades - all of these units are mentioned by Donbass and Russian sources. The locations and numbers may vary from different sources with the major one for me being the Republican Guard brigade being called the 100th Brigade (might have been a typo even as 10 is a number missing from 1-11). I had seen it mentioned as the 5th but that confusion could stem from them both being stationed in Donetsk City. The other interesting point was the 7th brigade formerly under Donetsk control coming under control of the 2nd Corps in Luhansk. It does however makes sense as the 7th is now stationed at Debaltseve, along the border of Donetsk and Luhansk plus a natural invasion route from the North.

3 Mechanized or MotorRifle regiments - not sure of the difference between a regiment and a brigade here. I have heard the 6th called a brigade plus am told that it is equipped and organized like a brigade. The 9th and 11th regiments are new but there were rumors of such happening. Just to clarify, the 6th is the old 1st Don Cossack Army regiment, the 9th seems to be built around the Sparta battalion facing Mariupol and the 11th around the Somali battalion covering to the NE of Donetsk City. While on the subject of old units, the "Vostok Brigade" appears to be in the 5th NAF brigade and the "Ghost Brigade" appears to be in the 4th NAF brigade.

2 Artillery brigades - the one in Donetsk uses the old Miner brigade name. It appears that 122mm caliber weapons and lower are in the combat brigades and regiments while 152mm and above are with the Artillery brigades.

2 Commandants regiments - a Military Police type force. Have read the one in Luhansk has 2 battalions. One for Recon and Patrol while the 2nd is for Reaction and Escort. Would assume the unit in Donetsk to be similar.  

2 Tank Battalion Groups - a tank battalion supported by a company of BMP's and a mixed Artillery battalion (batteries of 2S1, D-30 and BM-21). Very strong reaction force, named "Diesel" in Donetsk and "August" in Luhansk

2 Air Defense battalions - NAF claims to have captured 8 SA-4b's plus appear to have 2-3 times that many SA-13's. No confirmed BUK's although they were previously stationed at 2 bases over run by NAF forces. The UAF at that time claimed that they had removed or destroyed all prior to being over run.

2 Recon battalions - not much info but they have been mentioned by Donbass and Russian sources also.

2 Spetsnaz battalions - both in Donetsk. One formed in 2014 and the second in 2015. Have seen mention of these 2 plus the Recon battalion forming a Recon regiment in Donetsk.

2 Maintenance battalions - one for each - logical

2 Material Support battalions - one for each - logical

2 HQ & Signal battalions - one for each - logical

2 Engineer companies - would expect more but there would also be a company of engineers attached to each of the Combat brigades/regiments

2 Electronic Warfare companies - certainly hear a lot about their work. Really curious as to the equipment they have.

Territorial Defense battalions - on the ORBATS there are units #1-5 listed under the 1st Army Corps and #11-18 listed under the 2nd Corps. I believe that #6-10 exist and are under the 1st Corps so there would be 18 in total. When they were formed in the spring, Zakharchenko said there was to be one in every major urban area and they were part time reservist. He spoke of a force of 10,000 and the Ukrainians claim there are 9,000. I suspect that the battalions depend on the size of the City they defend and vary between 450 and 750 each. When all the various militias were being amalgamated into the NAF, Mozgovoi complained but agreed in the end. I'm told that his "Ghost brigade" at that time had 1200 regulars and 500 reservist stationed out of Alchevsk. The Territorial Defense battalion in Alchevsk carries the "Ghost" name and the 4th NAF brigade is Headquartered there also.

Ministry of the Interior

1 Berkut battalion - made up out of the local force plus those that fled there from other regions... stationed in Donetsk.
3 Troops of the Interior battalions - light infantry security force. Suspect 2 in Donetsk and 1 in Luhansk  

Manpower:

10 Mechanized brigades and regiments = 26-27,000 regulars
Support units = ~8,000
Territorial Defense = 9-10,000
Security Forces = ~2,000
Reserves = 25-30,000

There was a Topaz electronic factory in Donetsk and I know in 2014 Novorussian forces one full factory fresh Kolchuga EW complex or something similar placed on trucks. I think Zaharchenko said, that this factory or any other produce communication sets for Novorussian army. I think Topaz is able to provide quite somevariete of EW equipment and I'm sure they also take a lot of produced equipment in Topaz, when the war started.

Units of the Air Defense battalion of the 2nd NAF Army Corps on training exercises;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-an8pSZOtw0

franco wrote:Units of the Air Defense battalion of the 2nd NAF Army Corps on training exercises;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-an8pSZOtw0

This appears to be filmed that the Luhansk airbase (the plane museum).

http://www.kp.ru/daily/26423.7/3295886/

Linked article has the NAF's believed attack scenario coming from the Ukrainian Army. Will attempt to show a breakdown of the opposing units for each of the 4 areas plus reserves. The units are based on data that I have seen over time. There will be a few guesses that I will announce and of course there is always the chances that data was incorrect or units have been transferred since.

The NAF has 7 mechanized brigades and 3 mechanized regiments to defend.

The UAF has 2 armored, 10 mechanized, 1 or 2 motorized, 5 airborne and 1 naval infantry brigades along with 2 national guard regiment/brigades to attack.  

RESERVES:

NAF has the Republican Guard brigade stationed in Donetsk City.
UAF has 2 brigades stationed at the border area. I believe them to include an airborne brigade (possibly the 80th or 81st) and an armored brigade most likely the 1st.

"A" ZONE - basically the area bordering the Luhansk Peoples Republic. The Seversky Donets river forms the dividing line for over half this area.

UAF has 3 mechanized brigades (24th,54th and 92nd) and a 4th brigade which I believe to be the 57th motorized.
NAF has 2 mechanized brigades (2nd and 4th) and the 6th mechanized regiment.

"C" ZONE - basically the area bordering the Gorlovka and Debaltsevo areas of the Donetsk Peoples Republic. Some of the heaviest fighting and shelling occur here.

UAF has 3 mechanized brigades (53rd, 128th and ??) and the 25th airborne brigade.
NAF has 2 mechanized brigades (3rd and 7th)

"B" ZONE - area bordering Donetsk City from between Gorlovka to just south of the city.

UAF has 2 mechanized brigades (28th,30th and 93rd - one would be in "C" zone but not sure which), 2 airborne brigades (79th and 95th) and 1 National Guard regiment/brigade (made up of the maidan battalions)
NAF has the 5th mechanized brigade and the 11th mechanized regiment

"M" ZONE - area bordering the Donetsk Peoples Republic from Mariupol up to just south of Donetsk City.

UAF has 2 mechanized brigades (14th and 72nd), 17th Armored brigade, 1st Naval Infantry brigade, 1 airborne brigade (80th or 81st) and 1 National Guard regiment/brigade (Azov and Donbass)
NAF has the 1st mechanized brigade and the 9th mechanized regiment.