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    Sikorsky S-97 Raider

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    nemrod
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    Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  nemrod on Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:19 am

    http://sploid.gizmodo.com/sikorskys-new-attack-helicopter-is-the-most-badass-helo-1641816294

    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-270-mph-sikorsky-s-97-raider-is-the-batmobile-of-th-1641651839/+barrett

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:41 am

    That is actually dangerously and funny at the same time using a rigid rotor head and rotorblades in such narrow seperation from the rotor discs, that will stress the entire rotor system at any speedy turns and will reduce the lifespan and will limit co-axial known maneuverability along with some other factors, but it will have higher speed over shorter time i.e. acceleration would be superior. Not really something you want in combat getting hit with high calibre Anti aicraft guns, rotor blades are non composite and will not withstand any ballistical impact, but overall for small aircrafts not the worst design.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:37 am

    interesting design, befor they build it they surly put it trough a couple of thounsend hours of simulator, should be a fine helicopter

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:40 am

    Werewolf wrote:That is actually dangerously and funny at the same time using a rigid rotor head and rotorblades in such narrow seperation from the rotor discs, that will stress the entire rotor system at any speedy turns and will reduce the lifespan and will limit co-axial known maneuverability along with some other factors, but it will have higher speed over shorter time i.e. acceleration would be superior. Not really something you want in combat getting hit with high calibre Anti aicraft guns, rotor blades are non composite and will not withstand any ballistical impact, but overall for small aircrafts not the worst design.

    But at the same time those western media publications wouldn't recognize the Ka-50/52 for the amazing helicopter that it is, in fact the Ka-52 turned out so amazing that the Pentagon wanted a helicopter similar to it.

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    The new Sikorsky S-97 Raider Is The Batmobile Of The Skies

    Post  AirCargo on Tue May 26, 2015 9:28 pm

    Sikorsky S-97 Raider Achieves First Flight

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army-aviation/2015/05/22/sikorsky-s97-raider-achieves-first-flight/27777997/

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Zivo on Tue May 26, 2015 10:22 pm

    It looks like the 1980's are back with a vengeance.

    Personally, I wont be impressed until something revolutionary like the Ka-90 is built. The stowable rotor configuration is the future, and as a bonus it can have a significantly reduced RCS in cruise, something these coax+pusher helicopters will never have.




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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 27, 2015 5:24 am

    Meh.... it just looks like a blackhawk with coaxial rotors and a tail rotor that is a pusher... big deal... Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Militarov on Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:08 am

    I saw this thread just now ffs Smile

    Sikorsky Showcasing S97 Raider Helicopter First Time to the Public AUSA 2015:

    And here is the video: http://defensewebtv.com/index.php/component/contushdvideoshare/player/army/sikorsky-showcasing-s-97-raider-helicopter-first-time-to-the-public-ausa-2015-defense-web-tv


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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:30 pm

    Militarov wrote:I saw this thread just now ffs Smile

    Sikorsky Showcasing S97 Raider Helicopter First Time to the Public AUSA 2015:

    And here is the video: http://defensewebtv.com/index.php/component/contushdvideoshare/player/army/sikorsky-showcasing-s-97-raider-helicopter-first-time-to-the-public-ausa-2015-defense-web-tv


    Considering the cost of the Sikorsky CH-53K, expect this helicopter to cost $160 million per piece!

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Militarov on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:33 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:I saw this thread just now ffs Smile

    Sikorsky Showcasing S97 Raider Helicopter First Time to the Public AUSA 2015:

    And here is the video: http://defensewebtv.com/index.php/component/contushdvideoshare/player/army/sikorsky-showcasing-s-97-raider-helicopter-first-time-to-the-public-ausa-2015-defense-web-tv


    Considering the cost of the Sikorsky CH-53K, expect this helicopter to cost $160 million per piece!

    Haha, it wont, hopefully they belive serial production will be between 15 and 20 million apiece. Somewhat like Mi17V5s lets say.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:11 pm

    I am kind of astonished by US MIC achievements in the past 3 decades.

    They have put the RAH-66 helicopter down because it costs 65 mln USD per piece in its prototype phase, now they go with a CH-53K helicopter that costs 100 mln USD per piece and they still have to call russian companies to get their downed helicopters out of hot zones, mostly due their tight, preplanned flight shedules which they are not really capable off changing, despite Chinooks being capable of slinging downed chinooks.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  max steel on Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:11 pm

    Black Hawk Empty: Unmanned Helicopter Passes Key Test

    After drones, now unmanned helos. What a Face

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:22 pm




    This picture apparently shows Kamov's conceptual designs that are not too different to the S-97 Raider. The Russians already had some of these designs before the Sikorsky X2 -- the prototype from which the S-97 was built upon. The Ka-92 will have a ridiculous range of 1200-1400 km without refueling and travel at a maximum speed of 500 km. I wonder if attack helicopters can be given a range boost similar to that of the K-92.  At 800 km the Eurocopter Tiger has the longest range of any attack helicopter, with the Rooivalk following at 700 km.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:17 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:


    This picture apparently shows Kamov's conceptual designs that are not too different to the S-97 Raider. The Russians already had some of these designs before the Sikorsky X2 -- the prototype from which the S-97 was built upon. The Ka-92 will have a ridiculous range of 1200-1400 km without refueling and travel at a maximum speed of 500 km. I wonder if attack helicopters can be given a range boost similar to that of the K-92.  At 800 km the Eurocopter Tiger has the longest range of any attack helicopter, with the Rooivalk following at 700 km.


    The requirements for Attack helicopter to operate in combined operations close to own army ground forces of armored and mecha/motorized forces have requirements more focused on having parameters and offensive and deffensive capabilities to operate along with those ground forces. There is no layout today that would reach such speeds or ranges and the only one that could achieve such range or speed due its design and aerodynamic shape would be Ka-50 when you strip it of its armor and make it overhaul lighter by 3-4tons you can achieve such speeds, but that is not a requirement for the current generations of attack helicopters.

    That picture is funny as hell must be one of the appointed people of Lockheed Martin PR department. 40ton lift with slinged cargo with a co-axial design in such a dimensions...i am gone believe that when i see that because research papers of Kamov state limitations in size and weight of blades and the exponational distance both rotor discs must have to keep a safe flexing zone for both sets of rotors which vary all the time under different speeds, rpm, disc load, maneuvering and altitude.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:48 am

    Werewolf wrote:The requirements for Attack helicopter to operate in combined operations close to own army ground forces of armored and mecha/motorized forces have requirements more focused on having parameters and offensive and deffensive capabilities to operate along with those ground forces. There is no layout today that would reach such speeds or ranges and the only one that could achieve such range or speed due its design and aerodynamic shape would be Ka-50 when you strip it of its armor and make it overhaul lighter by 3-4tons you can achieve such speeds, but that is not a requirement for the current generations of attack helicopters.

    That picture is funny as hell must be one of the appointed people of Lockheed Martin PR department. 40ton lift with slinged cargo with a co-axial design in such a dimensions...i am gone believe that when i see that because research papers of Kamov state limitations in size and weight of blades and the exponational distance both rotor discs must have to keep a safe flexing zone for both sets of rotors which vary all the time under different speeds, rpm, disc load, maneuvering and altitude.

    Yeah, I understand what you're saying... there is simply no way the Russians are going to compromise the armour protection of the Ka-50-2 just to increase range and speed, especially when such a performance would rarely be used, if ever. The Klimov TV7-117 or the VK-3500 engine are significantly more powerful than any helicopter engine and would probably allow the Ka-50-2 to achieve such speed and range without necessitating a reduction in weight and protection.

    The 40 t lift conceptual design strikes me as odd, but the Joint Heavy Lift High Speed Lifter looks like a Mi-26 with coaxial rotors and side propellers. Question: Why is it that the Ka-50-2 is limited to carrying 12 Vikhr missiles when it has impressive takeoff weights, second only to the Mi-28? It also has the superior coaxial rotors set up in addition to being lighter than the Mi-28 with slightly more powerful engines and 3 pylons at its disposal.

    Thanks, Werewolf.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:22 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:The requirements for Attack helicopter to operate in combined operations close to own army ground forces of armored and mecha/motorized forces have requirements more focused on having parameters and offensive and deffensive capabilities to operate along with those ground forces. There is no layout today that would reach such speeds or ranges and the only one that could achieve such range or speed due its design and aerodynamic shape would be Ka-50 when you strip it of its armor and make it overhaul lighter by 3-4tons you can achieve such speeds, but that is not a requirement for the current generations of attack helicopters.

    That picture is funny as hell must be one of the appointed people of Lockheed Martin PR department. 40ton lift with slinged cargo with a co-axial design in such a dimensions...i am gone believe that when i see that because research papers of Kamov state limitations in size and weight of blades and the exponational distance both rotor discs must have to keep a safe flexing zone for both sets of rotors which vary all the time under different speeds, rpm, disc load, maneuvering and altitude.

    Yeah, I understand what you're saying... there is simply no way the Russians are going to compromise the armour protection of the Ka-50-2 just to increase range and speed, especially when such a performance would rarely be used, if ever. The Klimov TV7-117 or the VK-3500 engine are significantly more powerful than any helicopter engine and would probably allow the Ka-50-2 to achieve such speed and range without necessitating a reduction in weight and protection.

    The 40 t lift conceptual design strikes me as odd, but the Joint Heavy Lift High Speed Lifter looks like a Mi-26 with coaxial rotors and side propellers. Question: Why is it that the Ka-50-2 is limited to carrying 12 Vikhr missiles when it has impressive takeoff weights, second only to the Mi-28? It also has the superior coaxial rotors set up in addition to being lighter than the Mi-28 with slightly more powerful engines and 3 pylons at its disposal.

    Thanks, Werewolf.

    Yes the JHLHSL helo looks very much like Mi-26 because it makes very good use of internal volume while keeping a very good aerodynamic shape.

    The Ka-50 isn't really limited to just 12 Vikhrs by design but they limited it by layout since what you gonna do with 24 fucking ATGM's? Use ATGM's against every single running guy and waste highly capable weapons isntead you could use unguided rockets. The thing is such helicopters are used against combined arms, you will never see tanks in more numbers than soft targets, that is never going to happen. They will always be accompanied by soft armored and infantry in more masses then you could find tanks on the battlefield. HEAT is not bad against everything but HE-Frag unguided ammunition is still superior against soft armor and infantry that are scattered around or sitt in BTR's/IFV's or are remotley buy. The Vikhr has a HE-Frag warhead aswell but it is just to expensive to waste so many missiles if you have better suited weapons for that.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:41 am

    werful than any helicopter engine and would probably allow the Ka-50-2 to achieve such speed and range without necessitating a reduction in weight and protection.

    I seem to remember the US Army had a requirement that the Apache should be able to self deploy to europe in an emergency so it could carry external fuel tanks on its four wing points and its internal magazine for 1200 rounds of 30mm cannon shells could be replaced with an extra fuel tank.

    The Russian helos on the other hand have no need for such enormous flight range... extra large normally empty fuel tanks would not be any advantage to the existing designs.

    Why is it that the Ka-50-2 is limited to carrying 12 Vikhr missiles when it has impressive takeoff weights, second only to the Mi-28?

    The operational design originally called for single seat Ka-50s... so a comparison of 6 Vihkrs and a 30mm cannon and 2 x 20 shot 80mm rocket pods per crewman on the Kamov made the Hokum better in terms of firepower per crewman. In comparison the Havok has 8 ATGMs, 20 rockets and 150 rounds per crew man.



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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Cyrus the great on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:01 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    Yes the JHLHSL helo looks very much like Mi-26 because it makes very good use of internal volume while keeping a very good aerodynamic shape.

    The Ka-50 isn't really limited to just 12 Vikhrs by design but they limited it by layout since what you gonna do with 24 fucking ATGM's? Use ATGM's against every single running guy and waste highly capable weapons isntead you could use unguided rockets. The thing is such helicopters are used against combined arms, you will never see tanks in more numbers than soft targets, that is never going to happen. They will always be accompanied by soft armored and infantry in more masses then you could find tanks on the battlefield. HEAT is not bad against everything but HE-Frag unguided ammunition is still superior against soft armor and infantry that are scattered around or sitt in BTR's/IFV's or are remotley buy. The Vikhr has a HE-Frag warhead aswell but it is just to expensive to waste so many missiles if you have better suited weapons for that.

    I wonder if Mil would ever team up with Kamov to comprehensively upgrade the Mi-26 with coaxial rotors and side propellers -- possibly giving it greater speed, range and maneuverability. Now, I understand that maneuverability is not really required in a heavy transport helicopter, but it would be a positive [unintentional] byproduct of the coaxial set up.

    The Ka-52 is my favourite attack helicopter and I suspected that it could carry more than 12 missiles. I certainly don't think it needs to carry 24 ATGMs, but it certainly should be able to carry 16 missiles -like the Mi-28- if needed. I agree with you about HE-Frag and I look forward to Ugroza rockets being deployed to add precision to the mix, in addition to them being much cheaper than ATGMs.

    Thanks for clarifying things for me, mate.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:27 am

    Garry B wrote:I seem to remember the US Army had a requirement that the Apache should be able to self deploy to europe in an emergency so it could carry external fuel tanks on its four wing points and its internal magazine for 1200 rounds of 30mm cannon shells could be replaced with an extra fuel tank.

    The Russian helos on the other hand have no need for such enormous flight range... extra large normally empty fuel tanks would not be any advantage to the existing designs.

    The funny thing about the Robertson IAFS is that it only gives the AH-64 less than an hour [53 minutes] of extra flight time and it still has less range than the Ka-52 --> 545 km to the Apache's 497 km. I still don't understand how it is that the Apache has greater ferry range. Americans still boast about how their Apaches are armed with 1200 30mm rounds even though they lost that capability starting in 1997.


    Garry B wrote:The operational design originally called for single seat Ka-50s... so a comparison of 6 Vihkrs and a 30mm cannon and 2 x 20 shot 80mm rocket pods per crewman on the Kamov made the Hokum better in terms of firepower per crewman. In comparison the Havok has 8 ATGMs, 20 rockets and 150 rounds per crew man.

    Have they increased the amount of 30mm rounds the Mi-28 can carry? This might sound like a manifestly bad idea to put forward, but couldn't the Mi-28 and Ka-52 be modified to accommodate a device like the 12-PAK in the old Apache variants - allowing them to carry 1200 30mm 2A42 rounds? It would increase the weight and overall size by a small margin which could be mitigated with the new engines that Russia already has waiting in the wings.

    Thanks a bunch, Garry.


    Last edited by Cyrus the great on Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:47 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:32 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    Yes the JHLHSL helo looks very much like Mi-26 because it makes very good use of internal volume while keeping a very good aerodynamic shape.

    The Ka-50 isn't really limited to just 12 Vikhrs by design but they limited it by layout since what you gonna do with 24 fucking ATGM's? Use ATGM's against every single running guy and waste highly capable weapons isntead you could use unguided rockets. The thing is such helicopters are used against combined arms, you will never see tanks in more numbers than soft targets, that is never going to happen. They will always be accompanied by soft armored and infantry in more masses then you could find tanks on the battlefield. HEAT is not bad against everything but HE-Frag unguided ammunition is still superior against soft armor and infantry that are scattered around or sitt in BTR's/IFV's or are remotley buy. The Vikhr has a HE-Frag warhead aswell but it is just to expensive to waste so many missiles if you have better suited weapons for that.

    I wonder if Mil would ever team up with Kamov to comprehensively upgrade the Mi-26 with coaxial rotors and side propellers -- possibly giving it greater speed, range and maneuverability. Now, I understand that maneuverability is not really required in a heavy transport helicopter, but it would be a positive [unintentional] byproduct of the coaxial set up.

    The Ka-52 is my favourite attack helicopter and I suspected that it could carry more than 12 missiles. I certainly don't think it needs to carry 24 ATGMs, but it certainly should be able to carry 16 missiles -like the Mi-28- if needed. I agree with you about HE-Frag and I look forward to Ugroza rockets being deployed to add precision to the mix, in addition to them being much cheaper than ATGMs.

    Thanks for clarifying things for me, mate.
     

    I doubt that Kamov and Mil would cooperate together unless they are ordered to do it, but usually there is a competition for both unless one is significantly better and for heavy lifters Mil is unparalleled, but if the requirements for a new helo with higher MTOW would be not feasible by Mil design capabilities they could be pushed to try to figure out solution with Kamov. Think it is unlikely because i haven't heared about requirements for heavier lift then they have right now. First there need to be an urgend need for such requirement before they even take into consideration for a new plattform while most weights that are above Mi-26 are carroud out by cargo planes. Unlikely but not impossible for a KaMi Helo.

    The Ka-52 already can carry more than 12 missiles, even tho the inner pylons are prohibited to be used for Sprial class ATGM's due to saftey reasons dating back to Mi-24A to avoid possible ATGM to fuselage collition in maneuvering launchese which happen more than some might think in heat of battle. The inner pylons are allowed to be used for ASM, AShM and GR Ugroza S-24/25 guided rockets. So it has 14 missles. 12 destroyed tanks and two destroyed small fregates or corvettes or two destroyed bunkers, radars, SAM/SHORADs or infrastructure like bridges. No other attack helicopter can destroy bridges, vessels or SHORADs due the weapons integration. The other only helo that comes close to such capabilities is AH-1 which has AGM-65 Maverick integrated in it in different versions. That is also why i would prefer AH-1Z over AH-64E along with future projects of integrating Longbow as the Cobra Radar System and jamming pod ALQ-231 and more fancy stuff.

    The funny thing about the Robertson IAFS is that it only gives the AH-64 less than an hour [53 minutes] of extra flight time and it still has less range than the Ka-52 --> 545 km to the Apache's 497 km. I still don't understand how it is that the Apache has greater ferry range. Americans still boast about how their Apaches are armed with 1200 30mm rounds even though they lost that capability starting in 1997.

    The americans use on Apaches 230 gallon fuel tanks russians use around 130 gallons if i didn't miss something. So yes it is a big plus for Apaches for self deployment even tho that comes at cost of time it takes and the extra time it takes again to maintain the helo after that long range of self deployment.

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    Re: Sikorsky S-97 Raider

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:08 am



    I agree with you about the prospects of Kamov and Mil working together... unless the Russian government demanded it they would understandably resist it. The Mi-26 is a great platform with unique capabilities and so I don't think needs to be replaced, but a modification program wouldn't hurt. Coaxial rotors and side propellers would add to its performance. It would increase power, range, speed and possibly maneuverability.

    The Ka-52 has some very unique capabilities which is what I think makes it the best attack helicopter in the world.

    Thank you, Werewolf. I've learned a great deal.

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