Called a mission kill, where the enemy aircraft is not shot down but has to dump its load to survive and can't continue the mission.
Also unaware targets are vulnerable too.
Also unaware targets are vulnerable too.
nastle77 wrote:I have read that the main Mig-23 tactics against other fighters was mainly "hit and run" and to avoid prolonged dogfights
But then I see the Mig-23P, ML, MLA and MLD had the R-60 which was a ultraclose range weapon designed to counter maneuverable fighters ,from a practical standpoint when was the Mig-23 expected to use this weapon ? WHat is the benefit of having 4 of these weapons with a very short range ?
since it was outranged by the sidewinder the Wests most common AAM
Wouldn't it be better to equip the Mig-23 with 4 x R-24 missiles as they would give them longer spear to deal with the sidewinder armed opponents esp when the IR version of this version was essentially a fire and forget weapon
George1 wrote:nastle77 wrote:I have read that the main Mig-23 tactics against other fighters was mainly "hit and run" and to avoid prolonged dogfights
But then I see the Mig-23P, ML, MLA and MLD had the R-60 which was a ultraclose range weapon designed to counter maneuverable fighters ,from a practical standpoint when was the Mig-23 expected to use this weapon ? WHat is the benefit of having 4 of these weapons with a very short range ?
since it was outranged by the sidewinder the Wests most common AAM
Wouldn't it be better to equip the Mig-23 with 4 x R-24 missiles as they would give them longer spear to deal with the sidewinder armed opponents esp when the IR version of this version was essentially a fire and forget weapon
RS-24 in MiG-23 were used from Syrian Air Force against Israel's F-16s during 1982 Lebanon War, but claims on its success varies.
Many R-23 kills are also reported in the war between Iran and Iraq from Iraqi MiG-23s vs F-14, F-4 and F-5Es
Giulio wrote:I think the only way to shoot down an F-14 with a Mig-23 is the R-60: to play with a Tomcat on the long range distance it may not be a very good idea ....
nastle77 wrote:I have read that the main Mig-23 tactics against other fighters was mainly "hit and run" and to avoid prolonged dogfights
But then I see the Mig-23P, ML, MLA and MLD had the R-60 which was a ultraclose range weapon designed to counter maneuverable fighters ,from a practical standpoint when was the Mig-23 expected to use this weapon ? WHat is the benefit of having 4 of these weapons with a very short range ?
since it was outranged by the sidewinder the Wests most common AAM
Wouldn't it be better to equip the Mig-23 with 4 x R-24 missiles as they would give them longer spear to deal with the sidewinder armed opponents esp when the IR version of this version was essentially a fire and forget weapon
understandable so for example the R73 AA11 archer was not available in enormous numbers in the late 80s yet enough to equip atleast every mig29 with 2 rounds and maybe su27 with a coupleGarryB wrote:It was probably available in 1982, but such weapons were not purchased in enormous numbers... the Soviet Airforce neglected purchasing expensive guided weapons.
They had a variety of guided air to ground weapon types but their numbers in service were small and while a wide range of aircraft could carry the AS-13, it was the expensive ground attack aircraft only that carried it... ie Su-24M.
I would not expect them to have enormous numbers of the system but the air units that would have deployed it would have been Fencer units.
GarryB wrote:Archer is a very capable missile for two main reasons... it has a good seeker, and it has thrust vectoring control which allows it to perform hard turns off the pylon if needed.
It should be remembered that the IR guided models of R-27 have the same model IR seekers as the R-73 and because of the larger missile body have a wider off boresight capability of 55 degrees instead of the R-73s 45 degrees.
It was not available in enormous numbers in the mid 80s when it entered service, but light AAMs are like MANPADS or cruise missiles... they are relatively cheap to mass produce... by the late 1980s they would have plenty, though not for export customers...
They would easily have had enough to deal with most western aircraft in NATO by the end of the 1980s... remember at the time NATO relied on Sidewinders and WVR combat because they thought they had the edge in fighter pilot training... R-73 and Helmet mounted sights would have obliterated NATO forces and they would have had to rely on BVR capability... and ironically their main fighter... the F-16 didn't have AMRAAM then so it would be useless. F-15s would have been at a serious disadvantage against R-27 armed MiG-29s let alone Su-27s...
It was thought a waste of money to integrate AIM-7 into the F-16 when AMRAAM was being developed. Also, F-16 was originally designed as a sort of "hi-tech" MiG-21: fast, agile, focused only on air combat, mainly WVR.nastle77 wrote:
Thanks ! What was the reason that the F-16 was not given any BVR weapons other than the ADF variant that served with USAF.I mean esp since even the Mig-23MF/ML had BVR weapons
I know its off-topic I apologize
GarryB wrote:Archer is a very capable missile for two main reasons... it has a good seeker, and it has thrust vectoring control which allows it to perform hard turns off the pylon if needed.
It should be remembered that the IR guided models of R-27 have the same model IR seekers as the R-73 and because of the larger missile body have a wider off boresight capability of 55 degrees instead of the R-73s 45 degrees.
It was not available in enormous numbers in the mid 80s when it entered service, but light AAMs are like MANPADS or cruise missiles... they are relatively cheap to mass produce... by the late 1980s they would have plenty, though not for export customers...
They would easily have had enough to deal with most western aircraft in NATO by the end of the 1980s... remember at the time NATO relied on Sidewinders and WVR combat because they thought they had the edge in fighter pilot training... R-73 and Helmet mounted sights would have obliterated NATO forces and they would have had to rely on BVR capability... and ironically their main fighter... the F-16 didn't have AMRAAM then so it would be useless. F-15s would have been at a serious disadvantage against R-27 armed MiG-29s let alone Su-27s...
Thanks ! What was the reason that the F-16 was not given any BVR weapons other than the ADF variant that served with USAF.I mean esp since even the Mig-23MF/ML had BVR weapons
I know its off-topic I apologize
It was thought a waste of money to integrate AIM-7 into the F-16 when AMRAAM was being developed. Also, F-16 was originally designed as a sort of "hi-tech" MiG-21: fast, agile, focused only on air combat, mainly WVR.
Archer of today has a quite outdated seeker, even in its M variant.
Archer of mid 80s had an average seeker for the time, sensitivity wise and decoy discrimination wise. It was really first generation of all aspect seekers for soviets then. Of course, its off boresight acquisition envelope was best there it at the time. Using AIM9 production rate during the 80s for comparison, archer might have been available in decent numbers, at least a few thousand if not almost ten thousand by end of Cold war. But then again, aim9 was carried by majority of NATO planes. Archer on the other hand was enabled for carriage by less than 2000 WP planes (15%). So in that regard maybe "a few thousand" is a more realistic figure.
So that's some 2000 WP fighters using archer vs some 6000 NATO fighters using aim9L/M at the end of Cold war.
HMS was a great addition, but to use it one really needs to be a few km away. Situational awareness, radars and BVR combat would have taken its toll on archer wielding planes before they'd get to such short distances. Even if kill ratio would favor HMS+archer combo in 1 on 1 situations, in reality it'd really be 12 vs 12 before combat, 10 vs 8 after BVR phase and then there's numerical superiority to compensate for lack of HMS and maneuverability.
And r-27t did not initially have the same seeker as initial r-73. They had an older seeker and were upgraded to r-73m class seeker well after the cold war, once r73m tech was ready for production.
^so GarryB you are suggesting in 80s the mig29 was actually equivalent to f15 ?
What would you say to all the bad press mig29 got after gulf war and over Yugoslavia
I say give iraqis 20 f15 and USAF 100 mig29s And all the support aircraft and AwaCs and the result will be the same ....it was superior intelligence And technology plus sheer numbers
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