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    Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

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    Isos
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Isos on Fri May 20, 2016 7:57 pm

    Tyloe wrote:
    Project Canada wrote:quick question, since the Leader is still in the planning/design stages, would it be possible to copy/incorporate some of Zumwalt's stealth features into it? from what I read about Zumwalt many commentators say its got good stealth..,

    Zumwalt's only a tech demonstrator with only 3 ships planned for commission. Mainly used to test an IEP drive and power hungry railguns and laser CWIS, weapon systems that Leader will also likely field. The USN's actual next-gen front line destroyer (2030-2040) will revert to a conventional hull and look something of a stealthier Burke.

    If the design model remains consistent then it's stealth features should be similiar to Type 45 and other modern European destroyers.


    It's defenceless against submarines ... Maybe they are stealth against radar but not against sonars.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 20, 2016 8:05 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Tyloe wrote:
    Project Canada wrote:quick question, since the Leader is still in the planning/design stages, would it be possible to copy/incorporate some of Zumwalt's stealth features into it? from what I read about Zumwalt many commentators say its got good stealth..,

    Zumwalt's only a tech demonstrator with only 3 ships planned for commission. Mainly used to test an IEP drive and power hungry railguns and laser CWIS, weapon systems that Leader will also likely field. The USN's actual next-gen front line destroyer (2030-2040) will revert to a conventional hull and look something of a stealthier Burke.

    If the design model remains consistent then it's stealth features should be similiar to Type 45 and other modern European destroyers.


    It's defenceless against submarines ... Maybe they are stealth against radar but not against sonars.

    Well its supposed to be stealthy in all spectrums radio, IR and acoustic. Claim is that in terms of the acoustic signature is comparable to that of the Los Angeles subs.

    Also it has 3 sonars, including towed one to cover all frequencies, but since it does not have torpedo tubes its supposed to defend itself aganist subs with ASW helicopters onboard.

    Also Zumwelt is supposed to be land attack oriented cruiser, something like surface SSGN.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 20, 2016 10:19 pm

    Militarov wrote:................

    Also Zumwelt is supposed to be land attack oriented cruiser, something like surface SSGN.

    If you are attacking land targets it means that you already cleared out sea and sky. So why waste billions of dollars on this superdestroyer when that job can be handled by infinitely cheaper vessels? Why not configure Elmo for anti-ship warfare and use other ships for land attack?

    I am not saying that tech in this ship is bad, certainly it is top notch, I just fail to see the purpose here.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  sepheronx on Fri May 20, 2016 10:37 pm

    It is just a black hole of finances demonstrator. I too hope Russia looks into such technologies but doesn't go nearly as far as the US did with this Zumwalt. Various tech is impressive but leaving it as a land attack based cruiser is just not effective. As well, it wouldn't be so stealthy once it launches a Tomahawk anyway as it would light up fairly quickly. I guess it is supposed to be sneaky but with sensitivity of systems like radar and sonar these days from Russia and other countries, I imagine it won't be as stealthy as claimed. There will be a lot of passive and none passive systems monitoring the oceans like the skies.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  hoom on Sat May 21, 2016 7:59 am

    It is just a black hole of finances demonstrator
    So true Laughing
    How they managed to make a ship thats at least 50% bigger (& how many times more $$$) than Burkes but has fewer VLS tubes & has air defense restricted to ESSM is absolutely beyond me No

    For Russia a fairly small number of big ships that outmatch a Burke or two with huge Airdefense & strike capability makes a lot of sense since they will never be able to match the Burke fleet in numbers of even much smaller & weaker ships.


    On the Lider model there are at least 3 different VLS systems shown: presumably one is UKSK, one Redut, is the other for an S-400 type large AA missile?

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Sat May 21, 2016 10:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:................

    Also Zumwelt is supposed to be land attack oriented cruiser, something like surface SSGN.

    If you are attacking land targets it means that you already cleared out sea and sky. So why waste billions of dollars on this superdestroyer when that job can be handled by infinitely cheaper vessels? Why not configure Elmo for anti-ship warfare and use other ships for land attack?

    I am not saying that tech in this ship is bad, certainly it is top notch, I just fail to see the purpose here.  

    It was designed from the experience in the middle east, particularly after the gulf and Iraq war. They thought they needed a surface combatant to fulfill land bombardment missions after the Iowa BBs were again retired, and during the 90s stealth was all the rage in the US. What they had was a warship with presumably, first strike capability thanks to its stealth, and safely operate within enemy littoral zones. This also when the LCS came to fruition, seeing their only threat in the ME was shore based systems and missile boats.

    Now in 2010 onwards, with their refocusing on the Pacific, Zumwalt's ability to fulfil its original mission in a high risk environment was questioned. Thus the original order of 32 was cut down, and Zumwalt's cruiser brother, CG-21 program, was cancelled, and everyone wanting to missile up the LCS.

    Now they just want their destroyers, (Burke III, and next gen DDG), to be capable to sustain blue water operations and cope in an advanced A2/AD scenario.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 3:30 pm

    Tyloe wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:................

    Also Zumwelt is supposed to be land attack oriented cruiser, something like surface SSGN.

    If you are attacking land targets it means that you already cleared out sea and sky. So why waste billions of dollars on this superdestroyer when that job can be handled by infinitely cheaper vessels? Why not configure Elmo for anti-ship warfare and use other ships for land attack?

    I am not saying that tech in this ship is bad, certainly it is top notch, I just fail to see the purpose here.  

    It was designed from the experience in the middle east, particularly after the gulf and Iraq war. They thought they needed a surface combatant to fulfill land bombardment missions after the Iowa BBs were again retired, and during the 90s stealth was all the rage in the US. What they had was a warship with presumably, first strike capability thanks to its stealth, and safely operate within enemy littoral zones. This also when the LCS came to fruition, seeing their only threat in the ME was shore based systems and missile boats.

    Now in 2010 onwards, with their refocusing on the Pacific, Zumwalt's ability to fulfil its original mission in a high risk environment was questioned. Thus the original order of 32 was cut down, and Zumwalt's cruiser brother, CG-21 program, was cancelled, and everyone wanting to missile up the LCS.

    Now they just want their destroyers, (Burke III, and next gen DDG), to be capable to sustain blue water operations and cope in an advanced A2/AD scenario.

    Basically this, yes.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Sat May 21, 2016 7:39 pm


    At this point I think it would be important for Russia to see the first of the new destroyers commissioned before the end of 2020.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 8:24 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    At this point I think it would be important for Russia to see the first of the new destroyers commissioned before the end of 2020.

    First Leader is expected to be built no earlier than 2023. with first to enter service around 2025.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 21, 2016 9:55 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    At this point I think it would be important for Russia to see the first of the new destroyers commissioned before the end of 2020.

    Not really, priority should be Gorshkov frigates, they should build as many as they can. Those ships are already capable of using Zircon missiles (they have UKSK launchers). New landing ships should also be high on the list.

    Lider destroyers will become (somewhat) necessary once laser and railgun systems are perfected due to high power consumption.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Sat May 21, 2016 10:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    At this point I think it would be important for Russia to see the first of the new destroyers commissioned before the end of 2020.

    Not really, priority should be Gorshkov frigates, they should build as many as they can. Those ships are already capable of using Zircon missiles (they have UKSK launchers). New landing ships should also be high on the list.

    Lider destroyers will become (somewhat) necessary once laser and railgun systems are perfected due to high power consumption.

    I think it can be good for Russia to have a modern project ready for production for every type of ship. In this case the first ship of the last project of destroyers produced until now was commissioned in 1980, and would not be bad for Russia to have this new project in production as fast as possible. Just the same happens with the antisubmarine destroyers or large ASW ships, that also want to replace this project. Again the first ship of the last class produced was commissioned in 1980. And there are other areas that are not far of these numbers. It seems too much time to me between generations. I do not consider the previous projects of destroyers obsolete, but I think the step between generations need to take less time, to improve the balance in the development of new projects and the construction of new ships. In overall terms it is good to give to the development and construction of ships of every type some continuity.

    I think it would be good if both projects can have some years of production in paralel. The production of the first unit of the new destroyers surely would not be a significant delay in the production of other ships, but would open the door to the production of more new destroyers in case of need for Russia.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 22, 2016 3:20 am


    The thing is that Gorshkov class frigate IS replacement for old destroyers.

    They are somewhat smaller but in terms of capabilities they are far superior. Udaloi class for example is focused on anti-sub operations and has pretty weak anti-ship and anti-air capabilities and no land-attack capability whatsoever.

    Gorshkov class on the other hand s true multirole warship with no real downsides: ships, subs, aircraft, land targets it can handle them all without a problem.

    These frigates have potential to become RU Navy's equivalent of Arley Burkh destroyer. Basically mass produced multirole backbone of the whole Navy.

    As for large destroyers they already said that they are taking their time because they want to be careful and avoid expensive mistakes made during Zumwalt program by US Navy

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Dima on Sun May 22, 2016 10:00 am

    Please add the project number to the topic title.....Project 23560


    22350 and 23560 should be given equal priority. Already there has been reports of yet another BLUNDER in the making which said it will be laid down at Severnya. These scums have already messed up Russian navy's two (& only new projects) primary rearmament projects and now they want to grab the 23560 as well.

    Hope better sense prevail and the project is laid down in parallel at Baltisky and Admiralty yards.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Mon May 23, 2016 2:51 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The thing is that Gorshkov class frigate IS replacement for old destroyers.

    They are somewhat smaller but in terms of capabilities they are far superior. Udaloi class for example is focused on anti-sub operations and has pretty weak anti-ship and anti-air capabilities and no land-attack capability whatsoever.

    Gorshkov class on the other hand s true multirole warship with no real downsides: ships, subs, aircraft, land targets it can handle them all without a problem.

    These frigates have potential to become RU Navy's equivalent of Arley Burkh destroyer. Basically mass produced multirole backbone of the whole Navy.

    As for large destroyers they already said that they are taking their time because they want to be careful and avoid expensive mistakes made during Zumwalt program by US Navy

    I do not know many exact details of the new destroyers of the project 23560, but I do not expect a weaker ship than a modern frigate. I would expect a ship in the mold of the new frigates but bigger and stronger. One of the few details that I know about the new project 23560 is that want to replace the ships of the projects 956 (destroyers) and 1155/11551 (anti submarine destroyers). It seems that the new destroyer want to be also multirole.

    If the project 23560 is good enough to go forward, I think it would be positive to start the production (of the first unit) fast.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 23, 2016 2:54 pm

    eehnie wrote:..................................

    I do not know many exact details of the new destroyers of the project 23560, but I do not expect a weaker ship than a modern frigate. I would expect a ship in the mold of the new frigates but bigger and stronger. One of the few details that I know about the new project 23560 is that want to replace the ships of the projects 956 (destroyers) and 1155/11551 (anti submarine destroyers). It seems that the new destroyer want to be also multirole.

    If the project 23560 is good enough to go forward, I think it would be positive to start the production (of the first unit) fast.

    Project 23560 (Lider) will be nothing like a frigate. This thing will be massive. In terms of size it should be similar to Zumwalt maybe even larger. Keep in mind that benefits of nuclear propulsion are higher the bigger vessels get, so RU Navy will be going for something lot bigger than Gorshkov corvette.

    It will of course be multirole, this goes without saying. VMF have completely abandoned building specialized combat vessels for anything above missile boats. Those too would have been multirole had size permitted it.

    As for construction schedule frigates should take priority simply because a lot of the ships in service now are approaching expiration date and need to be replaced with something urgently. This is where Gorshkov class comes in. All current specialized frigates and destroyers will be replaced with vessels that are not only more advanced but are also true multirole ships.  

    In a time it takes to build one destroyer they can complete dozen frigates. They need to replace current fleet capacities before they can expand them. That is what new destroyers are for, expanding capacity.

    Same logic applies to landing ships: they will be building smaller Priboi class to replace current Ropucha-class landing ships before they build Mistral replacements (Lavina class)

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Tue May 24, 2016 2:03 am

    You are talking about replacement of the current destroyers, and maybe cruisers by frigates, then, because the current frigates in service are modern (only 3 from before 2002 and one is in the reserve).

    I really do not think that the Russian fleet is old. I do not think that ships of the 1980s, in this case destroyers and cruisers, need to be replaced by age, when we see still some ship from 1968 and 1969 in active service. I think that Russia has been decommissioning ships young still to adapt its size but not by age. Russia should have been keeping the most adapted ships of the Sovietic fleet to the current requirements, then, these ships should remain longer when Russia reachs the projected size for its fleet.

    The people should not expect a fast retirement of Sovietic ships until the last. Early retirement of ships is a bad business, and only has some sense when they are not needed. And the Russian fleet will reach the balance for its new right size before the sovietic ships to be finished. It means the last Sovietic ships will be needed ships, and as consequence will not be retired early as others. The last Sovietic ships will remain until to complete their entire life cycle.

    If there are still early retirements of some destroyers and cruisers, is because the retired ships are not considered necessary. It means they will not be replaced.

    If there are not more early retirements is because the current ships are needed, and then would remain until to be old. The ships obviously would be replaced then.

    Russia seems to be decommissioning still young ships, or at least did it until very recently (at least until 2014). Until now the reason of the new ships has not been to replace the retired ships, but to cover new needs and to develop modern ships, opening new lines of production of modern ships. Despite the lack of production of new ships Russia is keeps living the research, development and production lines of new ships. It is likely that Russia did what you said at this level, but Russia has not a need to keep what you said for the replacement of other ships in the short-mid term.

    I do not expect Russia expanding its fleet significantly in the short-mid term. Also I do not expect Russia producing many ships in the short-mid term. It would make the recent decommission of young ships a big mistake, proving a bad calculus of the right size for the Russian fleet in recent years. I would expect a Russian fleet with stable number of ships in at least one decade, maybe two, after reaching the wanted size. I would expect the calculus of the size of the fleet in the previous years to be right.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 24, 2016 8:39 am


    I don't think that ships from the 80's should be replaced. In fact they are being upgraded as we speak. Even Tarantul boats will be getting Uran launchers, Udalois too. One Slava class is finishing total overhaul with others to follow. Kirov class as well.

    But the fact is that they are not getting any younger and there are not enough of them. And there are many different ship classes with few units built. Most frigates have just 2 ships in series.

    Current fleet will definitely stay in use but it needs to be supplemented with fresh hulls. And these new ships will all be multirole which is pretty big advantage.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Isos on Tue May 24, 2016 2:46 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I don't think that ships from the 80's should be replaced. In fact they are being upgraded as we speak. Even Tarantul boats will be getting Uran launchers, Udalois too. One Slava class is finishing total overhaul with others to follow. Kirov class as well.

    But the fact is that they are not getting any younger and there are not enough of them. And there are many different ship classes with few units built. Most frigates have just 2 ships in series.

    Current fleet will definitely stay in use but it needs to be supplemented with fresh hulls. And these new ships will all be multirole which is pretty big advantage.

    That's why they are bulding Gorshkovs and not bigger ships. They need them to support their big sips like Slavas and Kirvov. Look in Syria they send Moskva with the Smetlivy (really old ship). Against the NATO force in mediterrean they couldn't do a lot. Moskva could probably sink some of them but then it would be destroyed for sure. Smetlivy won't do anything and would be destroyed at the bigining.

    Russia really need a medium size ship build in big numbers. US ships compared to others are not the best but they have a lot of them. Most of them are Burks which are 20+ years old.

    The new destroyer will not be started for a long time. Even if they start it, they will built 2 or 3 of them instead of much more Gorshkovs. Russia economy couldn't support much more and from a military point of view it's useless just 2 big ships instead of 5-6 medium ships with the same armement (but less shiped) but that can cover much more areas. Even european countries with a better eco situation than russia can't produce many big ships. France for exemple has just 2 Horizon class with 4 cancelled. US can but I think they will implode like USSR if they continue to put all that money in weapons.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:02 pm

    Its happening thumbsup

    USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

    According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Firebird on Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:27 pm

    Viktor wrote:Its happening  thumbsup

    USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

    According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

    17.5 k tons. The Kirovs are what 24k and 28k fully laden.
    So basically, thats (not far off!) a modern day Kirov? Bearing in mind greater automation and compactness these days. That really is saying "don't fuck with us" Haha.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:20 am

    Firebird wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Its happening  thumbsup

    USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

    According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

    17.5 k tons. The Kirovs are what 24k and 28k fully laden.
    So basically, thats (not far off!) a modern day Kirov? Bearing in mind greater automation and compactness these days. That really is saying "don't fuck with us" Haha.

    No it's still a destroyer class, and keep in mind the new frigates being inducted are comparable to yesterdays destroyers... which brings up some interesting questions such as: With such a large displacement for a 'destroyer' does that mean that...a) Future cruisers and battle cruisers will be massive even for their category? Or b) the large displacement is to compensate because the navy will no longer acquire cruisers and battlecruisers, but will settle on making more humongous destroyers instead.

    I'm leaning more towards the latter (b).

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:31 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Its happening  thumbsup

    USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

    According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

    17.5 k tons. The Kirovs are what 24k and 28k fully laden.
    So basically, thats (not far off!) a modern day Kirov? Bearing in mind greater automation and compactness these days. That really is saying "don't fuck with us" Haha.

    No it's still a destroyer class, and keep in mind the new frigates being inducted are comparable to yesterdays destroyers... which brings up some interesting questions such as: With such a large displacement for a 'destroyer' does that mean that...a) Future cruisers and battle cruisers will be massive even for their category? Or b) the large displacement is to compensate because the navy will no longer acquire cruisers and battlecruisers, but will settle on making more humongous destroyers instead.

    I'm leaning more towards the latter (b).

    This ship is fairly as big as most of the current cruisers. Looking at the similar age of both the current Russian cruisers and destroyers, maybe perfectly the b) option.

    Well there is people calling cruiser to this project.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  franco on Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:55 am

    Almost 50% bigger then the Slava Class Crusier...

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_1164.htm

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  max steel on Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:29 pm

    Design of Project 23560E "Shkval-class" Destroyer (export variant of Leader-class).


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Project Canada on Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:04 am

    Russia to Build Leader-Class Destroyer That Will Outgun Largest US Warships

    The Leader-class destroyers, expected to be equipped with Kalibr-NK cruise missiles and S-500 air defense systems, could soon be added to Russia's impressive arsenal of cutting edge military equipment. Russia's Ministry of Defense is currently reviewing the design and could ink the ship building contract in the near future.


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