RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

Also, the Indian Air Force are working to integrate the R-73E missiles into the weapons of Dassault Mirage 2000H fighters.

Interesting they are wasting time doing this when they said they were going to switch to ASRAAM as their standard short range AAM... unless that report was just BS.

I was hoping it would be the R-27EA. Well.

My understanding is that that was a largely Ukrainian project that was not adopted by anyone so it was not fully developed.

For the Russian AF the R-77 made more sense in terms of ARH missiles... not that they had a lot of aircraft that could carry it up until the last decade or so.

But if I was India, I would have asked since the beggining a production line for the ramjet r-77 or the r-77PD with longer range when they bought the su30MKI. The basic r-77 they have sucks.

Well first of all how can you say the basic R-77 sucks... India has tested it and uses it in service and they clearly were happy to buy more... the number of times the AMRAAM has failed even when launched from inside its stated max range suggests its numbers are inflated anyway.

Second, India has a history of joint ventures with Russia so I am surprised they don't follow on their Brahmos project with a new air to air missile joint project with Russia where they make a scramjet powered AAM.... why would you bother with ramjet motors for AAMs now?

Missed its target almost regularly during several training exercise.

Yet India chose to buy 400 of them... and they were likely the expensive missile in the missiles bought... unless you think they were all the same price each?

R 73 can also be integrated with the homegrown LCA Tejas fighter.

But what of claims the R-73 is obsolete and is to be replaced by ASRAAM?

Rvv ae is the export version of r-77. Small range and like you said not so good during tests. Russians never bought it.

They bought a few hundred for testing, but the only aircraft types during the 1990s that could use the R-77 were MiG-29SM models and of course the Su-25TM... there was no need to buy a lot.

Russia has developed an AESA seaker and they have the technology of the ramjet for missiles. That's what they should have developed since the beggining and what india should have asked.

Why bother with ramjet when scramjet can be twice as fast...

There is a first time for everything. They have China and Pakistan at their border. They better have production lines for most of their important munitions including air to air missiles.

You'd think so, but it seems to be more important to spend 8 billion dollars on 36 Rafales than ensure locally produced air to air missiles are available no matter what.

A swordsman spends most of his time keeping his blade razor sharp... not polishing the pommel stones so they shine nice and pretty...

What really matters is the aerodynamic during the launch. Radar guided missiles need to work with fighter's radar/datalink which is more difficult to do and more sensitive.

The weapon pylon used for the R-77 has a pneumatic ram that throws the missile down away from the aircraft on launch before motor start so weapon release shouldn't be a problem. My understanding is that the Su-30MKI is not fully plug and play like the Su-35 so they need to upgrade them to use the newer missiles like RVV-SD etc... something I would think was a priority...

If the Russian AF makes large scale purchase of this air to air missile then India might also follow.

They are buying the newer fully digital RVV-SD instead... especially now that they have MiG-29SMT and Su-30 and Su-35s and soon Su-57s that can actually use them. The MiG-31BM can also use the RVV-SD too.

In fact I suspect the Ka-52K can use them as well.

Air to air missiles that have too many fins causes aerodynamic problems like flutter on the aircraft. Maybe that's why ASRAAM is a finless design.

No.

ASRAAM uses thrust vectoring motor control so external stabilisers just add drag...

The R-73 has a thrust vectoring motor too but it also has stabiliser fins and control surfaces so it can manouver even after the rocket motor has burned out.

The missile doesn't exist. Only some paperwork done but the ramjet version was cancelled.

Of course the ramjet version was cancelled... a scramjet powered model offers much better performance for a little extra work... work that is already being done on other missiles.

Rocket ramjet missiles are not new... the SA-6, the Kh-31, and so many anti ship missiles it is hard to count... they are good, but the replacement for the SA-6 was the pure rocket powered SA-11 and SA-17 and now the BUK-M3 whatever it is called. Their replacements will likely go back to the rocket ramjet design but a rocket scramjet instead for much better speed and range...

If the indian stocks are destroyed then they are left with nothing and China has the advantage.

And most importantly... your aircraft are just delivery vehicles for the ordinance... if it is rubbish then it does not matter how capable or expensive the delivery vehicle is...

They didn't chose, they had to. No other ARH missile can be used by their mig-29 and su-30, it's the only one.

If it is so crappy they could just not buy it and buy more R-27s or just buy a western missile and integrate it like they say they want to integrate the ASRAAM to all their aircraft instead of the R-73.

They don't seem to share your opinion because the new r-77M is still a rocjet engine. India asked for tge meteor integration on their MKI.

The improved rocket motor R-77M and the ramjet powered R-77PD is the ramjet powered extended range model. The ramjet powered model was cancelled, while the solid rocket motor model has been completed... do you think it might be because they realise that a ramjet powered missile in the age of scramjet powered weapons is already obsolete and the work needed to get a ramjet powered missile to work properly would be better spent getting a scramjet powered missile to work... even if it only flys at mach 7 or mach 8 to start with...

I guess a locally produced ramjet powered r-77 with AESA seaker is tge best option for them. And russians wouldn't share scramjet technology anyday soon.

I'd be inclined to agree there... India is a big market, but there is no real loyalty there... too many factions look to the US and Europe...

RVV SD is already a better and quick replacement for the r-77 they use... indians are stupid.

The RVV-SD or basically the export model of the domestic R-77-1 which is an improved R-77... the original R-77s were made in the Ukraine AFAIK..

The RVV-SD is not compatible with the Flanker model the Indians use, so they can either upgrade their Flankers or keep using the same old missile.

It is suspected they want to use Meteor so they are continuing to buy the old R-77 and not the improved model... probably for the same reasons that Germany didn't upgrade their MiG-29s to SMT standard and instead kept their F-4s in service because they actually wanted Typhoons and why buy Typhoons when you had the much cheaper and simpler MiG-29SMTs...

But they don't develop any scramjet air to air missile. Mach 8 at 1km altitude means the missile would just burn or they may use materials that can resist but then the radar inside would be affected and it won't see far away because of plasma geberated by heat...

It couldn't achieve mach 8 at 1km altitude, so it could throttle back its motor and fly for much further than a solid rocket motor missile launched at such an altitude could achieve.

Ramjet is already a huge advance over rocket engines that give the rocket max speed after launch and them it decelerates making less and less effective as it goes further and further.

A ramjets advantage is that it can sense the speed it is going and its altitude and its thrust setting and it can change its thrust setting to suit. A solid rocket is just dumb and wastes a lot of energy because there is no control.

Most solid rocket motor missiles run at full power for a few seconds and then a lower power for a bit longer and then stop.

Launched from high altitude those first few seconds can accelerate the missile to a good speed and a higher altitude and then the lower power thrust maintains speed to maximise cruise range and then it stops and the target had better be close by or there is not much it can do about it... generally you get one good slashing attack at the target but if you miss there is zero chance of coming around for another go.

Fired from low altitude and low speed the range and performance will be terrible and nothing like the brochure range.

Generally for long range shots altitude is good and so is speed... a ramjet powered missile will use a thrust setting where it is not wasting fuel but it is climbing for altitude... no matter how far away a target is altitude is always good because any speed lost climbing can be regained in the dive attack phase... also at high altitude the drag is lower so you can fly much faster and further and as I said any energy lost in climbing can be regained in the dive.

Most ramjet powered missiles have solid fuel rockets in their cores so they start with a rocket booster to climb and accelerate the missile before the ramjet is started... depending on how far away the target is the missile can manage its fuel including shutting down the engine to coast to the target and then going to full thrust for the attack phase to allow full manouver performance...

A scramjet can do the same but can operate at much higher flight speeds which is a bonus.

They should have at least made the ramjet r-77PD for export.

For export they can just use the rocket motor model... if push came to shove they should joint develop an air to air model of the Kh-31PD... 250km range could be extended with less than 145kgs of HE for the warhead... an extra 100kgs of fuel and still with a 45kg HE warhead you should get a decent range...

I fians are right now puting into service copies of old s-125...

And also ironically they are using an SA-6 ripoff instead of buying BUK... ironic because if they converted them to scramjet they might have something there...

Impoverished countries like India cannot afford to buy state of the art missiles from Russia.

They were buying missiles from Russian companies when Russia wasn't even buying them... it certainly was not charity... they bought what they wanted, not to keep any company afloat, but their purchases made Sukhoi aircraft rather more capable from the money they put in to that company with their purchases, and they weren't the only company selling to India.

Also, Russia should not export their latest missiles to India because they will simply pass on those tech to the U.S

I doubt India wants the US to know all about the weapons they are using because the US will pass that info over to Pakistan...

Exported weapons don't need to be anything like Russian domestic models.

Loyalty cannot be expected from indecent, corrupt people like Indians.

There are plenty of untrustworthy people around the world... could the people of Russia trust their future with Navalny or even certain chess champion Kasparov?

There are traitors everywhere... not a huge lot you can do about that... except expect that no matter what you do eventually the enemy will get their hands on your stuff... keep working to stay ahead and it wont matter so much.

Russia should sell its weapons to Middle Eastern countries and countries in Europe. Russia will have to cultivate these markets just like they did in UAE. These countries are rich, prosperous and far less corrupt than poverty stricken countries like India.

Russia should sell to anyone wanting to buy, but European countries don't want Russian weapons, and many Middle East countries that they don't already sell to would just as likely use the weapons against Russian troops in the region...

During various exercises both within and outside India R 77 missed its target on a regular basis.

In actual combat various AMRAAM missiles have missed their targets too, if the exercises are realistic why would you expect a kill every time?

For its SU 30MKI, Mig 29UPG and Mig 29K the R 77 is the only missile of its type that can be used by these aircraft. So India has no other option but to buy the R 77. Even the Russian Air Force rejected the R 77.

The Russian AF mostly rejected the original RVV-AE because at the time it was made in the Ukraine and was vastly more expensive than the R-27 family of missiles and most Russian AF aircraft in the 1990s and early 2000s couldn't use it effectively anyway.

In 2008 when they started their reforms and Putin got serious about fixing their military money was invested and spent on both upgrades and new generation replacements.... the R-77-1 is the all digital upgrade which the Russian Air Force has bought in numbers... it is called RVV-SD.

No such offer has been made by Russia so far. Vanilla Brahmos was basically the P 800 Oniks. Not really a JV. These days the rear part of the Brahmos, thrusters, fuel tank etc are designed by India while the front part – seeker etc are imported from Russia.

The Su-30MKI is just an Su-30MK with French and other foreign bits added. Su-30MK was a PVO type intended to operate as an airborne mini AWACS type using its radar to support smaller fighters.... the Indian Su-30MKI is a fully multi role fighter bomber that combines features of a fighter with features of a medium strike platform... so it is certainly not just another Su-30MK. The Brahmos is not an Onyx, it was derived from the down graded export Yakhont, but seriously upgraded the electronics to allow both anti ship and land attack use, so while it is shorter ranged than Onyx and with a smaller warhead, it was a superior weapon until the upgrades were applied to Onyx missiles too. Further upgrades include more potent fuel types developed for later missiles.

India is a big country... if it wants new joint ventures it should suggest them and not just wait for Russian companies to make offers.

Cannot be replaced for Su 30MKI, MIg 29UPG, Mig 29K. ASRAAM will be used by western aircraft that IAF procured and the LCA Tejas. During tests conducted by IAF, ASRAAM was found to be far more accurate than the R 73.

Well it is rather newer... and I suspect not as cheap.

Accuracy is relative as well... if the R-73 is still killing targets then what benefit is there to a more expensive missile with improved accuracy?

The R-77s imported by India since the year 2000 were of the RVV-AE type (Izdeliye 190).
The ones ordered in 2019 are the R-77’s RVV-SD (Izdeliye 170-1) variants.
The R-73E SRAAMs ordered in 2019 are the improved RVV-MD variants.

Well there you go... problem solved.

But ASRAAM hardly has any fins except for the fins at the rear

That is right... it uses its engine to steer it in flight allowing much harder turns with no chance of stalling... the problem is that once the motor stops burning your ability to turn and chase a target rapidly diminishes...

Once the rocket motor burns out how will it manoeuvre?

Some of the surfaces are fixed and provide stability... ie keep it flying nose first. Some of the surfaces are vane sensors that tell the missile which way it its moving through the air. The movable surfaces allow it to turn like the rudders and aelerons on an aeroplane. For hard turns as the missile is launched or early in its flight when the motor is still running it can redirect the rocket exhaust to manouver very hard with no chance of stalling...

Here is a pic of the R-73. Too many fins just like the Python missile

That is not a live round. The real missiles has more fins.



This is a real missile.

From the nose tip the first set of fins are vanes that tell the missile what its angle of attack is with regard to air flow moving over the missile.
The next set of fins are flat and are fixed... they stabilise the air past the nose... and next are the triangular fins that move and turn the missile to fly toward the target.
At the rear of the missile are large fixed fins that stabilise the missile in flight but their rear edges have control surfaces that act like a rudder to swing the tail around in flight to allow it to turn faster...
and the top left of the photo is the rocket motor with basically metal blocks that can be pushed into the rocket exhaust to deflect it up to 15 degrees to manouver the missile much harder than any conventional fin could manage to on its own (without stalling).

Remember while the fins and surfaces are tiny the missile is moving very fast so super hard turns are not normally possible with control surfaces anyway.

Probably. However, the ones ordered in 2019 are the R-77’s RVV-SD (Izdeliye 170-1) variants.

If they are doing something smart then they don't qualify as being stupid...

They can't use it on their MKI. They need an upgrade and they dodn't buy it as far as we know so it's the same basic r-77 that they ordered.

It can't be a huge upgrade... even MiG-29SMT and Su-27SM3 aircraft use the new missiles... they clearly didn't want to spend the money.

Remember military procurement often involves bean counters so if you can't explain why an R-77-1 is better than an R-77 they might not want to spend money on something they don't have in service if they haven't bought R-77-1s yet.

Now that they have... perhaps the upgrade will be done with the next phase of improvements.

Indian are stuck with the basic export version of r-77, RVV AE.

Well they can probably use the R-77-1 with their upgraded MiG-29UPGs and MiG-29KR naval planes should be able to use them too... maybe that is why they bought some of each?

Old models for the Su-30s until they get upgrades and new models for other aircraft. The fact that they are testing them on the 30s suggest they are working on the upgrade and testing it before rolling it out to the entire fleet of Su-30s...

Why are you favoring the RVV SD?

It is an upgraded fully digital missile with Russian components instead of bits from Texas Instruments. It also has a longer effective range than the original RVV-AE.... 110km vs about 80km.

Idk. Maybe. But RVV SD is the most advanced of the three, the r-27 being SAHR missile. I would put my money on the latest one.

I would think a higher energy faster and longer ranged missile that uses the BARS radar for guidance would not be a bad choice for a lot of roles...

What type of upgrades are you referring to? Major upgrades required on the Su 30MKI?

My understanding is that the computer network on the Su-30MKI is not fully plug and play like a Windows system. With, for example the Su-27, the processing power mean adding something like a targeting pod that might need massive amounts of data through put to allow video feed and of course interaction with the video stream like target highlighting and auto tracking... it would be a real chore to integrate it... probably needing a few computers for processing to be added to the aircraft. For something like the Su-35 the networks are there... you need a driver... a piece of software that tells the system what the new item is and what it does and its input and output requirements are and how it can interact with other systems fitted... for instance a targeting pod might include GLONASS navigation so information from its GLONASS module could be used to update the aircrafts position making its own navigation more accurate. Further a thermal imaging view of ground targets could be passed to weapons being carried that have thermal seekers and the angle the seeker in the pod is facing could be used to direct the weapon to look there itself and capture the target on its own so it has a lock before it is launched.

The R-77-1 is fully digital but probably uses similar information that the standard R-77 uses for launch.. the upgraded missile has improved propulsion so when launched both fire up their rocket motor to accelerate and climb, but the new missile can delay the start of its so called second stage so it will coast closer to the target before firing up a second stage to accelerate it and give it energy to manouver while attacking the target rather than burning that fuel up in level flight on the way. All the components are also digital and improved and made lighter and extra fuel has been added.

I suspect Indian Navy's Mig 29K can use the RVV-SD because Mig-29K is the naval variant of the Mig-35.

Could be why they bought them... of course mention of testing them with the Su-30 suggests they are trying to decide whether to go with an upgrade or whether to just keep using the older missile which is probably cheaper.

R27er is very good in terms of aerodynamics but it is a SARH so the jet being attack will know from the beggining you launched a missile on him and will escape more easily.

The R-27ER has a two phase attack where it starts out on inertial guidance and only as it approaches the target does it need the target to be illuminated, so the warning time wont be that much different from an ARH missile.

This is from the Tactical Missiles webpage:

The missiles pursue their targets in accordance with an update proportional navigation method both in the inertial/radio-corrected flight trajectory phase and in the semi-active homing phase after locking on target en route.

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27r1_-_r-27er1.html

Note the rather conservative ranges given... common sense rather than max sales...

ARH can be launched in track while scan and doesn't need a constant lock by the launch jet so the oponent won't know he is being under attack until last few seconds when the missile turn on its own radar.

R-27R and ER are the same...

This project to develop an air to air model of the Kh 31PD sounds difficult though. Moreover, India has the KH 31P variant and not the Kh 31PD variant.

Well not really... the anti ship version already carries a nose mounted radar that can find a ship on its own and it uses inertial navigation to fly to a position where it can detect a ship on its own... would not take that much to replace the radar with the ARH seeker from the R-77 or indeed R-37 to allow it to be used as an air to air weapon... upgrading from ramjet to scramjet would be the biggest change... they were already talking about a 300km range Kh-31 to be used to shoot down AWACS and JSTARS... and they probably would have developed it if there was not the R-37 and K-100 and KS-172 programmes offering to do the same thing with rocket motors already. The R-37 pretty much won because it was the chosen weapon for the MiG-31... the primary user of such a large weapon.

A new ramjet Kh-31 would be interesting, but a scramjet model would be excellent... it would do to AWACS and JSTARS and inflight refueling aircraft what Zircon will likely do for new large aircraft carrier programmes... seriously modify their designs...

(anti ship missiles wont end aircraft carriers just like air to air missiles wont end planes that carry radar or anti tank missiles will end armoured vehicles).