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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:47 pm

    Does the sun make the moon radioactive?

    Are meteorites found on Earth radioactive?

    Smile

    Of course, prefabricate them, launch them in to space and then manually or remotely attach them to each other.
    Same for the ships.

    So why not just make them modular and launch them together to "dock" in orbit and then fly to wherever they will be flying?

    But then we're talking about mining and production facilities too, might as well be talking colonization.
    And honestly an orbital shipyard would be much easier to work with thanks to its close proximity to Earth, rather then a Moon base.

    the capacity to "remote mine" materials would be invaluable. Building moon bases would be cheapest if we had mining there too... mine tunnels would be excellent and more resistant to radiation from space than man made prefabricated structures assembled on the surface... especially if water can be found there, which can easily be used as rocket fuel.

    the low gravity of the moon would make construction of larger structures easier and it is not really that far away... most of the energy needed to get to Mars is used climbing out of earths atmosphere and away from Earths gravitational pull.

    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Does the sun make the moon radioactive?

    Are meteorites found on Earth radioactive?

    Smile
    Hey, your mentioning nuclear furnaces here. Neutral

    Of course, prefabricate them, launch them in to space and then manually or remotely attach them to each other.
    Same for the ships.

    So why not just make them modular and launch them together to "dock" in orbit and then fly to wherever they will be flying?
    Because i believe that spacecraft will require a hell of lot more fine tunning then an almost non-moving orbital superstructure, not to mention a more hand on approach.

    Basically the dock is meant to house workers there supplies and equipment while earth sends the modular components to be assembled, similar to how the Americans build there aircraft carriers.

    For example:


    But then we're talking about mining and production facilities too, might as well be talking colonization.
    And honestly an orbital shipyard would be much easier to work with thanks to its close proximity to Earth, rather then a Moon base.

    the capacity to "remote mine" materials would be invaluable. Building moon bases would be cheapest if we had mining there too... mine tunnels would be excellent and more resistant to radiation from space than man made prefabricated structures assembled on the surface... especially if water can be found there, which can easily be used as rocket fuel.
    Ok, so who's going to maintain those "remote miners", where will these maintainers be housed, how is the water going to get extracted, where are they gonna find a rocket foul production facility, how are the maintainers gonna come and go from moon.
    See what i mean, at the end of the day before we go underground we'll need to prepare the infrastructure above ground first, which will still require some level of colonization.

    the low gravity of the moon would make construction of larger structures easier and it is not really that far away... most of the energy needed to get to Mars is used climbing out of earths atmosphere and away from Earths gravitational pull.
    The problem with the moon is still distance, and i think you just proved my point, think how easier it'll be to colonize the Moon or even Mars if we can avoid Earths atmosphere by building construction and launch platforms in our own orbit. russia
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:47 am

    Hey, your mentioning nuclear furnaces here.

    Well it could hardly be a coal fired furnace now could it?

    Perhaps we can just call it a furnace and leave it at that?

    Because i believe that spacecraft will require a hell of lot more fine tunning then an almost non-moving orbital superstructure, not to mention a more hand on approach.

    I don't understand.

    There is no such thing as a non moving orbital superstructure... to remain in orbit it needs to maintain that orbit, which means propulsion and the ability to manouver to avoid the largest debris in orbit.

    It makes more sense to completely build modules on the ground and then sit them on the back of a large rocket like Buran is placed on the back of an energyia rocket. Once placed in orbit other modules can be docked to it and then a whole lot of smaller tank based rockets can then ferry fuel up to the finally built module based long range space ship.

    Having some sort of manned space port would just add to the cost... you have to get the whole port up there in addition to all the components and fuel as well as fuel for the port to retain its orbit etc etc...

    Building up a spaceship in orbit would be just as easy in open space as the modules themselves would allow internal access to systems and external work can be done via space walks or robots.

    Hopefully most of the assembly would be done on earth minimising the amount of work in space to perhaps docking and turning things on.

    Basically the dock is meant to house workers there supplies and equipment while earth sends the modular components to be assembled, similar to how the Americans build there aircraft carriers.

    The cost of building a structure to house all those workers, and the risk of working in space would not make it viable. the 300 ton ISS cost billions and takes from 6 to 12 people.

    It would make rather more sense to build modules on the ground and just dock them together in space and then when you are ready to leave earth orbit you load it up with fuel and supplies and accelerate away.

    Ok, so who's going to maintain those "remote miners", where will these maintainers be housed, how is the water going to get extracted, where are they gonna find a rocket foul production facility, how are the maintainers gonna come and go from moon.

    Why do you think adding people is the solution? How many people has the US sent to maintain that robot rolling all over Mars.

    Not having to send humans is a huge advantage... it makes it cheaper and simpler... send a drilling machine weighing 3 tons to the Moon and it might require 40 tons of fuel to get it there. A human to maintain and operate it will weigh perhaps 80-100kgs but will require several tons of food and air to breath and water and might therefore require an additional 120 tons of fuel to get to the moon AND BACK. Drilling equipment can be left to either continue drilling, or lie dormant waiting until it is needed again.

    Drilling by remote control wont be easy, but once mastered can be sent on very long range missions to asteriods and the moons of other planets... the mining results could help pay the costs of the otherwise scientifically interesting missions.

    The Russians have developed a fuel cell that runs on Diesel fuel... imagine a moon near the triple point of methane... ie methane exists as a solid, a liquid and a gas on this small moon. Now imagine that AIP technology adapted to work with methane to generate electricity using the moons atmosphere...

    See what i mean, at the end of the day before we go underground we'll need to prepare the infrastructure above ground first, which will still require some level of colonization.

    Why?

    Is it because that is what is shown in movies and sci fi tv shows?

    A drilling machine that collects up the material it is drilling and can perform some basic analysis to determine what it is drilling could be landed on the surface and the first thing it does is drill down 5 metres and then start drilling sideways to create tunnels, using radar to look at the structure of rock to make sure it wont collapse and perhaps determine the structure and type of material around it.

    The unwanted material can be collected up and moved to spoil piles near the surface, where it could be pumped into bags and used as a building material similar to sand bags on earth.

    A few months analysing the material being dug out and we will have some idea of the value of mining in that area and also the potential for building underground and above ground structures.

    Water content and rock structure and strength will influence decisions of where to dig.

    The problem with the moon is still distance, and i think you just proved my point, think how easier it'll be to colonize the Moon or even Mars if we can avoid Earths atmosphere by building construction and launch platforms in our own orbit.

    Hahahahaha.... sorry, but that is like saying NZ isn't so far away from Europe once you get to the US... building in orbit is hard and still has the problem of leaving earths atmosphere.

    Having the construction facilities and the vast majority of the construction manpower in orbit makes it much harder and more expensive than having them all on the ground and launching them in loads and assembling and fuelling them in space.

    A rocket going to mars will be hundreds of tons if not thousands of tons but 90% of that weight will be fuel. That means assembling three main 100 ton modules would require three Energyia launches of 100-120 tons each, and then dozens of launches to fuel the space craft with thousands of tons of rocket fuel. Constructing a 300 ton space ship in space and then launching up the rocket fuel would take dozens of launches for the space craft components and dozens more for the fuel... and would take years to assemble in space all the while vulnerable to impacts. In comparison construction on the ground is quicker, easier, safer, cheaper, though if one of the three launch vehicles fails and you lose one third of your space ship there could be problems...
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:08 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Orbital: the amount of the contract for the supply of engines from Russia less than $ 1 billion
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:19 am

    Duma proposes to merge Roscosmos with United Rocket Space Corporation
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:00 pm

    smart move ,what name will they choose for new merged company?
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:52 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Russia orbits South-Africa's first spy satellite Kondor-E
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    Post  mutantsushi Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:24 pm

    http://itar-tass.com/en/world/768914
    Rogozin is hyping cooperation with Brazil, specifically that the revamped Sea Launch will be run with/from Brazil.
    Cooperation with Brazil is well and good, but I'm unclear on the rationale for why Sea Launch is a good match with Brazil,
    given Brazil's Alcantara launch site is already practically on the Ecuator, so why not just establish a land launch pad?

    I suppose the rationale might be that using Sea Launch ("plugging into" Alcantara facilities for fueling, etc)
    means Russia is not "tied into" Brazil if political winds change there, they can continue operating Sea Launch from wherever
    (Vladivostok, Vietnam, India, etc) and if the barge cost itself is not prohibitive, that establishes
    an easier modular model for expansion, somewhat similar to Rosatom's floating NPP design...

    Given that the current Sea Launch barge isn't adapted to Russian rockets (using Ukrainian Cyclone),
    I wouldn't be surprised if the first launch from de-Ukrainicized Sea Launch may be an Angara,
    since the same work would be needed to be done to adapt other Russian rockets,
    may as well do it with a new one and not one due to be replaced sooner or later...?
    ...Angara also having the advantage of avoiding the need to handle toxic hypergolic fuels.
    Kyo
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    Post  Kyo Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:29 pm

    A joint Russian-Brazilian expert meeting is currently taking place.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2014/12/24/sea-launch-brazil/
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:24 pm

    Resurs-P has been successfully launched in orbit russia

    Russia Launches Advanced Earth-Sensing Satellite Atop Soyuz Rocket
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:31 am

    Really Vann? Let's not start this worthless argument up again.
    avatar
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:58 pm

    Protón-M + european satellite Astra-2G   Smile

    two videos..

    http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/161659-lanzamiento-cohete-proton


    here is one..




    Maybe is me.... but looks like very different the way Soyuz and Proton engines operate..
    Is appears to be way more colorful the way Proton looks at night than Soyuz.
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    Post  Rmf Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:10 pm

    resurs is best civilian satelite russia ever made , but it has many western components -so it will be a problem for russians to continue its production.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:38 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Protón-M + european satellite Astra-2G   Smile

    two videos..

    http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/161659-lanzamiento-cohete-proton


    here is one..




    Maybe is me.... but looks like very different the way Soyuz and Proton engines operate..
    Is appears to be way more colorful the way Proton looks at night than Soyuz.

    The Proton uses a different fuel, hydrazine, compared to the Soyuz which uses RP-1 which
    is highly refined kerosene. So you can expect differences in the colours of flame.
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    Post  Vann7 Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:24 am



    The last Launch of Proton Rocket by Russia have everyone in youtube in awe..
    Everyone now saying Russia today is the leader in space.. while the american rovers in mars
    pass to a second plane..in relevance.. lol!

    This is exactly the kind of things Russia needs to counter western Propaganda.
    That will boost its profile in the world and promote Business. If i was Putin.. will triple the budget of their
    space program at very least. And more than anything seek to promote Space Tourism.. at affordable prices
    wealthy people.. lets say instead of 50$ millions the ticket.. something more in the $200,000 to $1 million per ticket.
    Revive the space shuttle program and create a fully re-usable space ship.. that can send 100 people to space at same time,as if was an airliner.

    Russia needs to first..
    1)Create their own space station ,for military use and for building space ships.
    2)Create a space tourism..industry.
    3)Create a base in the moon and make its possible for tourism to the moon.

    If Russia can do those things pretty much possible with today technology , it will significantly help
    to diversify their economy but also to become the center of attraction for world wide business.
    Companies will form in line for the opportunity to advertise their nation in each travel to the moon.
    Because Billions will be watching every moon landing.

    Kyo
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    Post  Kyo Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:20 pm

    20 launches of Soyuz 2 booster have been ordered for 2015.

    http://itar-tass.com/en/non-political/769996
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    Post  Kyo Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:26 pm

    Upper stage broken in two Proton aborted launches planned to be tested for third time, including the launch of three Glonass-M satellites.

    http://itar-tass.com/en/non-political/770049
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:12 pm

    many many lauches for 2015,cool Very Happy ...
    so they try 3rd time 3rd stage on proton that failed already 2 times. good luck.
    vann /russia has space station or at least some parts of it, and has space tourism too, so 3. only moon base but that is allot of investment russia can make right now. Wink
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:04 am

    I can only really think of two good reasons to assemble space craft in orbit... one is if the construction of certain materials require zero gravity or real vacuum, and the other is if the materials used are seriously dangerous and need to be isolated from humanity.

    Either way it is currently rather more efficient to build on the earth and assemble in orbit... and it is cheaper too.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:54 pm

    Kyo wrote:Upper stage broken in two Proton aborted launches planned to be tested for third time, including the launch of three Glonass-M satellites.

    http://itar-tass.com/en/non-political/770049

    Sabotage in action. What the hell is over-fueling? It's not like they stick a hose in a hole and fill the tank up by feel.

    Most of the failures over the last 20 years have been suspicious. A space station supply mission was sabotaged
    by a rag (yes rag) left conveniently over the docking mechanism. The spectacular Proton failure recently was cause
    by sensors being hammered into place upside down. These are not quality control and design issues, this
    is pure 5th column activity. Russia is riddle with all sorts of pro-NATO sycophants who can be bought cheap and will
    even sabotage their homeland for free.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:32 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Kyo wrote:Upper stage broken in two Proton aborted launches planned to be tested for third time, including the launch of three Glonass-M satellites.

    http://itar-tass.com/en/non-political/770049

    Sabotage in action.  What the hell is over-fueling?  It's not like they stick a hose in a hole and fill the tank up by feel.

    Most of the failures over the last 20 years have been suspicious.   A space station supply mission was sabotaged
    by a rag (yes rag) left conveniently over the docking mechanism.   The spectacular Proton failure recently was cause
    by sensors being hammered into place upside down.   These are not quality control and design issues, this
    is pure 5th column activity.   Russia is riddle with all sorts of pro-NATO sycophants who can be bought cheap and will
    even sabotage their homeland for free.  

    Agreed. There needs to be a purge in the system. Start threatening the employees that they will have to start collecting bottles and cans to make their next payments on whatever, if they do not get their acts together. They can pay for foreigners from other countries to help if the locals will not do it.

    Sick how many people are willing to sell themselves out in Russia. Guess it is a nation of whores then.
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:05 pm

    its true russian style space agency is little slugish but finnaly they will merge them and rostehnonadzor quality control procedures will take hold , also competition from some construction bueraus blocked each other at various stages..., i told you all those postponed launches from previous years planned for 2015 will bite them , so now they plan to have have most launches in year 2015 -worst year - the year russia will enter recession.
    there will be mistakes made under pressure for sure ,hopefully not too many failed launches.
    rus-m was already cancelled which was a smart move, but angara is incomplete it doesnt have 3rd hydrogen stage,and canceling soyuz in french guayana  joint venture is bad.
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:36 pm

    Kyo wrote:A joint Russian-Brazilian expert meeting is currently taking place.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2014/12/24/sea-launch-brazil/

    only problem is the contract with french was for 15 years or so ,untill 2019 i belive?

    but this is excellent opportunity after mistral to inrease launch costs way up ,blocking the launches ,or just cut and run , brazil launch center is even closer to equator then french guayana is.

    this will be excellent way to hurt french and west and team up with brazil launch few sats for them, but get launch lease for next 10-20 years...like with baikonur
    soyuz-2 is excellent platform it can get to geo-stationary orbit with about 1 ton payload , a sweet spot for todays modern satelites, which it cant do from kazahstan... and then there is no need for angara -a3 version since its same capability.

    there is even no need for angara -1.1 or 1,2 . maybe later when other launchers are expended, but ok for increasing production volumes and testing.
    so only angara a-5 and a-7 are actually needed.

    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:41 pm

    Viktor wrote:Resurs-P has been successfully launched in orbit  russia

    Russia Launches Advanced Earth-Sensing Satellite Atop Soyuz Rocket
    im sure both russia and south africa will use information form resurs-k jointly.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:23 am

    The first pictures from the spacecraft “Resurs-P” No.2 with January 4, 2015 year target testing of the equipment of the spacecraft Resurs-P

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #1 - Page 18 10906372_1544977965756885_6770769372042990763_n

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