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    Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

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    Do you view the soviet famine of 1931-32 an organised genocide solely against ukrainians?

    [ 5 ]
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    [ 18 ]
    78% [78%] 

    Total Votes: 23
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:14 pm

    Started by the faschist  Hearst corporate media the notion that the famine of the 30s in ukraine was caused artificialy by the soviet government to the "freedom loving ukrainian people" has widely been considered historical fact.

    However many little mentioned facts convince me more and more that all this "holodomor  ukrainian genocide" thing is a lie created to demonize the USSR even more. While there was indeed a famine in Ukraine that caused the deaths of many, was it only ukrainians that died? During the same period there was a similar famine on the volgawhere the people who died were russians or  tatars so how can it be said that it was targeted solely at the ukrainian people. Even if it was in Ukraine there was a very large amount of russians and other peoples there so again was it really at the ukrainians? If the soviets were really wanting to exterminate a huge portion of ukrainians they wouldve resorted to more efficient methods such  hand pickingb them and putting them to starve in camps just like the nazis did to the jews and such.

    Was the famine completely artificialy caused by the government? Collectivisation has been largely blamed for being the chosen tool of stalin to murder ukrainians. It isnt kept in mind that there were numerous periodical climatic famines in ukraine even before the soviet union starting from 1870. In fact the collectivisation mightve been  helpful to stop the famine. During that time there were starving landless peasents and rich landlords. When the landlords realized about the collectivisation they destroyed their crops and livestock which prevented the distribution of food to the cities causing the starvation. Most of the anticommunists claim these sabotages were rightful because it is "completely normal"  to destroy what you own to keep it from being stolen which I find a very sick argument. So its okay to deprive the starving from resources just because you want it to be completely yours?
    If collectivisations were so bad for agriculture why wasnt there never  a famine again after it?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:57 am

    Agriculture is a complex system... it is not just about farms, it is about factories to process the grain into flour or bread or whatever, it is about a transport network to move the produce from where it is grown to where it is sold and where it is eaten. It is about storage of food so pests don't get at it, so it doesn't sit in some warehouse rotting and forgotten.

    Collectivisation was a radical change to a working system that led to the system to stop working for a period during that change.

    BTW in the 1930s there was a huge world wide depression and economic collapse... there were homeless people going hungry all round the world.

    The idea that it was directed at the Ukrainian people is rubbish and very egocentric.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:52 am

    Exactly. Its very sad that its now widely considered complete historical fact about what so ukrainian nazi collaborators said to cause popular opinion against the soviet union.
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    TR1

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:17 am

    People died equally in the USSR for the most part Very Happy
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:52 pm

    Ukrainian people are also Russians, the fact that the first russian country was created and named Kievar Rus in 11th century and the name is related to Kiev and Rus for Rossijan the folk.

    So technically a genocide against "Ukrainians" isn't a genocide of "Ukrainians" but just genocide of Russians.

    Doesn't matter wich name you use. Just two independend states today but the same folk.

    And i don't think that the word "genocide" is realy "fits" against own people, idk.

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    nemrod

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    Who Organised the Famine in the USSR -included Ukraine- in 1932-1933 ?

    Post  nemrod on Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:41 pm

    http://orientalreview.org/2012/12/17/episodes-10-who-organised-famine-in-the-ussr-in-1932-1933/



    Who Organised the Famine in the USSR in 1932-1933?
    By ORIENTAL REVIEW


    Episode 10. Who Organised the Famine in the USSR in 1932-1933?

    The theory of the Holodomor is reactivated in the media every time Ukraine is about to take a step back to Russia. Just to remind those who are not aware of the tragedy, in 1932-1933 there was a severe famine throughout the USSR that claimed an unprecedented number of lives (up to 7 million victims, according to some debatable estimates). Paradoxically the famine mostly affected fertile areas in the North Caucasus, the Volga basin, the South Urals, Western Siberia, Ukraine, Belorussia and Kazakhstan. During the last decade several Western historians were recruited to elaborate on the  theory that the famine tragedy was a deliberate act of genocide against Ukrainians carried out by Stalin’s government. Let’s consider the historical facts and try to get closer to the truth regarding the issue of the sources and circumstances of that horrible famine in the USSR.

    First of all we have to recall something about the Gold, which surprisingly not always is a mean of payment…

    In early 1920s the recently proclaimed Soviet Union was anxious about restoration of its industry totally destroyed after WWI and Civil War in Russia (1918-1921). The Soviets desperately needed modern machinery and industrial equipment. How could they pay it? Soviet government was able to offer to the international market three items: grain, minerals and gold.
    Soviet Golden Chervonets, 1923

    Soviet Golden Chervonets, 1923

    On Genoa Conference in 1922 the new Gold Exchange Standard was introduced. Since the end of 1922 the Soviet Union was issuing the golden chervonets – a new Soviet currency fully covered by the golden reserves and convertible to gold. In 1923 the Soviet chervonets was one of the most stable and secured currencies of the world. It represented a clear and present danger for emerging financial epicentre – the United States of America The economic and financial weight of the United States boomed astonishingly as the result of global war. That country was one of few beneficiaries of the man-slaughtering house in Europe of 1910s. But an unexpected rival from the Bolshevik stated emerged vigorously…

    In 1924 the Soviet chervonets was replaced by a softer rouble without golden equivalent. The menace to the US dollar and British pound was diminished. In return Soviet Union was recognized by the UK, France, Norway, Austria, Greece, Sweden, Denmark, China, Japan, Mexico and other countries. The United States possessed 46% of golden reserves of the capitalist world.

    In 1925 the Soviet leadership decided to accelerate industrialization of the country. Quite surprisingly despite enormous economic gains promised by such policies, the Western countries refused to accept gold as payment when trading with Soviet Union! This amazing behaviour of is known in history as the “gold blockade”. The USSR could pay for machinery and equipment only by oil, timber and grains. (Interestingly, they still accepted pre-revolution Imperial Russian golden coins – the currency of a non-existent state was not dangerous!)

    In 1929 the US bankers initiate the Great Depression. The short period of international currency exchange stability was over.

    In 1931 Germany and Austria failed to repay the foreign debt and stop exchanging marks into gold, thus abolishing Gold Exchange Standard. By the autumn 1931 the UK suspends the gold exchange as well.

    As you see, it would be a logical and natural move to lift the golden blockade of Soviet Union at that time, thus allowing Soviet gold to relieve the suffocating Western economies. But the decision they was taken at that circumstances was shocking in its absurdity. They not only left the gold blockade of the USSR in force, but also imposed a severe trade embargo on the major part of Soviet export! It was done despite acute economic crisis in the West where most producers were interested in any kind of demand, especially paid by gold, timber, oil and other raw material from the Soviet Union. E.g. in 1932 80% of British machinery export was being supplied to the USSR. Nevertheless, on April 17, 1933 the British government introduced embargo: Russian Goods (Import Prohibition) Act 1933! What was the logic? It was a politically motivated decision to pressure the tenacious Soviet government powered by the antagonistic ideology and economic structure.

    Was the traded between the West and the USSR totally cut down? Absolutely not. Soviet demand for Western technologies and machinery was even higher than ever: the industrialization was full-pelt. But now the West was expecting only one mean of payment: the Soviet grains! (The curiosity of this claim is emphasized by the fact that by that time the currencies of the most agrarian countries were significantly devaluated and the demand for grains on world market was cut 50-70%!)

    The Stalin’s government was faced with a choice: either to give up restoring industry, so capitulating to the West, or continue industrialising, leading to a dreadful internal crisis. If the Bolsheviks took grain away from the peasants, there was the very great probability of a famine which, in turn, might lead to internal unrest and removal from power. So no matter what Stalin chose, the West would remain victorious. Stalin and his entourage decided to force their way through and stop at nothing.

    The government collected grain and sent it to the West, but not to starve part of a country’s population to death, but because there was no other way it could pay for the supply of equipment. All of Stalin’s hopes were on a new harvest. It turned out to be a small one, however, since the country was struck by a drought. The USSR was unable to buy food in exchange for gold (the gold blockade) or currency (as a result of the embargo there was none). Attempts were urgently made to get supplies of grain from Persia, where they had agreed to accept gold. The authorities did not have time, however, as a catastrophe was already underway.
    Famine Victims, Kuban, 1932

    Famine Victims, Kuban, 1932

    Between 1932 and 1933, thousands and thousands of people died and it was only after this that the West was once again renewed to accept oil, timber and precious metals from the Soviets.

    In October 2008, the European Parliament recognised the Holodomor in the Ukraine as a crime against humanity. The guilty was put on the ‘Stalinist USSR’. However, the report by the European Parliament did not provide answers to two questions:

    • why did the capitalists behave so “strangely”, refusing to accept Stalin’s gold?

    • why did they only want to receive grain from the USSR as payment?

    There is neither truth nor logic in the European Parliament’s reports. The truth is that in 1934, grain exports from the USSR completely stopped. By order of the Soviet government…

    The famine of 1932-33, which was carefully organized by the West, did not have the desired effect: the Bolsheviks remained in power. They continued industrializing. Economic measures had no effect – Stalin was restoring the country at any price. Only military measures remained. And exactly in 1933 Adolf Hitler, who had openly written about his expansionist aims in the vast Russian plains, came to power in Germany…
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    kvs

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  kvs on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:56 am

    The famine in Ukraine is grossly distorted to suit the Banderite NATO-sponsored agenda. There brutal resistance to forced
    collectivization in Ukraine and farmers engaged in crop burning and the mass slaughter of livestock to "take revenge" on the
    state. That this is never mentioned and the story is always about how the "idiot" regime seized seed grain makes it an obvious
    propaganda fairy tale. Of course, that there was famine outside of Ukraine is also never mentioned is BS narrative.

    Then we have the little detail that the famine in Ukraine did not affect the third of Ukraine in the west that was under Polish rule
    after 1920 and where the Banderite vermin have their base. So this human excrement runs around screeching about Holodomor
    when they never lived through it. And it was the eastern Ukraine, e.g. Donbas, where the famine ravaged the country side.
    The Banderite maggots claim that all the "original Ukrainians" died off and "Russian squatters" where settled in their place. But
    the eastern and southern territory, known as Novorossiya, was transferred over to the Soviet created "republic" called Ukraine
    and it was ethnic Russians who were dying during the forced collectivization.

    Banderite Ukrainians and their NATO backers have zero claim with regards to Holodomor. Forced collectivization victimized
    primarily ethnic Russian farmers, the kulaks. That their deaths are being used to demonize Russians is grotesque, absurd,
    ludicrous and obscene. Anyone who goes on about the "genocide of Ukrainians by Russians" is either a duped moron or malicious.
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    Odin of Ossetia

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:38 am


    Check these links:


    http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/330/fraud-famine-fascism

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-Truth.html
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    NationalRus

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  NationalRus on Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:11 am

    everyone died in that famine not only ukranians angry

    it was more of a crime to allow further ukrainisation (a artificial langouge and name to ethnical russian people) in the whole soviet period, basicaly supporting heretics, now we reap what we allowed to be sow
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    Odin of Ossetia

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:01 am

    NationalRus wrote:everyone died in that famine not only ukranians  angry

    it was more of a crime to allow further ukrainisation (a artificial langouge and name to ethnical russian people) in the whole soviet period, basicaly supporting heretics, now we reap what we allowed to be sow


    Your mistake was really trying to make them into Slavs:

    http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/382/wolyn-galicja-podole-malopolska-wschodnia
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:33 pm


    Holodomor Hoax: Joseph Stalin's Crime That Never Took Place

    Playing into the hands of Ukrainian nationalists, a monument to the so-called Ukrainian "Holodomor," one the 20th century's most famous myths and vitriolic pieces of anti-Soviet Propaganda, has been erected in the US capital.

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150809/1025560345.html

    Remarkably, the roots of the "Holodomor" ("deliberate starvation") myth lie in the longstanding Cold War standoff between Soviet Russia and the West. After the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945, infamous Nazi collaborators — members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and their paramilitary UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) units — fled into Western Europe and the United States, escaping punishment for their hideous crimes, including ruthless terror against peaceful Jewish, Ukrainian and Russian civilians.

    In 1949 the CIA and the US State Department sponsored the OUN-UPA leaders' immigration to the United States, planning to use them as subversion groups and intelligence agents in the Cold War against Soviet Russia.

    One of them, Mykola Lebed was characterized as "a well-known sadist and collaborator of the Germans" by the CIA, according to Swedish-American historian Dr. Per Anders Rudling in his book "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths." However, this fact had not prevented the CIA from recruiting the former Nazi collaborator.

    "Mykola Lebed [who was responsible for the murder of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia] lived in Queens, New York, until the 1990s, totally supported by the CIA or State Department," the US expert in Soviet history Professor Grover Carr Furr of Montclair State University, narrated in an interview with Sputnik in May, 2015.

    While the Ukrainian nationalists provided Washington with valuable information about its Cold War rivals, the CIA in return was placing the nationalist veterans into positions of influence and authority, helping them to create semi-academic institutions or academic positions in existing universities.

    By using these formal and informal academic networks, the Ukrainian nationalists had been disseminating anti-Russian propaganda, creating myths and re-writing history at the same time whitewashing the wartime crimes of OUN-UPA.

    One of these myths was "Holodomor" that claimed that the USSR and its leader Joseph Stalin deliberately starved to death from three to seven million Ukrainians.

    "In 1987 the film "Harvest of Despair" was made. It was the beginning of the 'Holodomor' movement. The film was entirely funded by Ukrainian nationalists, mainly in Canada. A Canadian scholar, Douglas Tottle, exposed the fact that the film took photographs from the 1921-22 'Volga famine' and used them to illustrate the 1932-33 famine. Tottle later wrote a book, 'Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard,' about the phony 'Holodomor' issue," Professor Furr elaborated.

    After the collapse of the USSR, the Ukrainian diaspora played a substantial role in shaping the ideology of the new Ukrainian state. "Unlike many other former Soviet republics, the Ukrainian government did not need to develop new national myths from scratch, but imported ready concepts developed in the Ukrainian diaspora," Dr. Rudling underscored.

    However, it was under Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko (who gained his power after the Western-sponsored Maidan uprising of 2004, also known as the Orange Revolution) when the anti-Russian myth making caught its second wind in Ukraine. Under Yushchenko, several institutes of "memory management" and "myth making" were established in the country.

    Both Russian and Western historians have questioned the "Holodomor" concept as well as evidently exaggerated number of victims of the famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine.

    American historian Professor Mark B. Tauger, West Virginia University, carried out thorough research on the famine of 1932-33 in the USSR, and came to the conclusion that the disaster was due to environmental circumstances and was evidently not related to the Soviet policy in the region.

    "Popular media and most historians for decades have described the great famine that struck most of the USSR in the early 1930s as "man-made," very often a "genocide" that Stalin perpetrated intentionally against Ukrainians and sometimes other national groups to destroy them as nations… This perspective, however, is wrong. The famine that took place was not limited to Ukraine or even rural areas of the USSR, it was not fundamentally or exclusively man-made, and it was far from the intention of Stalin and others in the Soviet leadership to create such as disaster. A small but growing literature relying on new archival documents and a critical approach to other sources has shown the flaws in the "genocide" or "intentionalist" interpretation of the famine and has developed an alternative interpretation," Tauger wrote in his research work "Review of R.W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933."

    Tauger stressed that climatic conditions played the main role in the famine of 1932-33.

    Paradoxically, supporters of the "Holodomor" myth remain silent about the fact that Russia (including the territory of modern Ukraine) had suffered from periodic devastating famines since the end of 19th century, long before Bolsheviks came to power in 1917. They also ignore the fact that there were serious famines in 1920-21, 1924, 1927 and 1928.

    Interestingly enough, official Soviet Ukrainian primary sources show that the 1928-29 famine, caused by natural disaster, mainly draught, was very serious, and Ukraine received more aid from the Soviet government, than it sent to other parts of the USSR. This obviously disproves the false theory of the Ukrainian nationalists' "malicious" conspiracy against Ukrainian peasants in the Soviet Union, noted Grover Furr in his book "Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation Against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands Is False."

    In response to historians who suggest that the Ukrainian peasants starved and suffered especially because of Collectivization — Stalin's policy of the early 1930s aimed at consolidating individual lands into collective farms — Tauger emphasized:

    "These studies minimize or ignore the actual harvest data, the environmental factors that caused low harvests, the repeated recovery from the famine and crop failures, the large harvests of the 1930s, the mechanization of Soviet farms in these years, Soviet population growth, and the long-term increases in food production and consumption over the Soviet period" ("Soviet Peasants and Collectivization, 1930-1939).

    According to the scholar, although the Stalin regime implemented collectivization "coercively," the policy "brought substantial modernization to traditional agriculture in the Soviet Union, and laid the basis for relatively high food production and consumption by the 1970s and 1980s" ("Stalin, Soviet Agriculture and Collectivization, 1930-1939").

    Remarkably, the famine of 1932-33 was the last famine that struck the Soviet Union with the exception for the famine of 1946-47 the country suffered from after the Second World War.

    Although the "Holodomor" myth was never based upon credible evidence and there are enough authentic sources to prove that it is a hoax, it is simply taken for granted. Unsurprisingly, Washington supports the myth as a part of its recent Cold War-style anti-Russian campaign. Alas, even repeated a thousand times a lie will never become the truth.


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