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    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:24 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:5 years is exccessive for( by your definitions) a puny non strategic  sub, especially if its not a lead ship. That's the time it should take a to build an entirely new class leader ballistic sub.

    As said earlier, when the construction on the 636 is finished, the Lada will be built much faster... - ~ 2 years
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    TR1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TR1 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:11 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:5 years is exccessive for( by your definitions) a puny non strategic  sub, especially if its not a lead ship. That's the time it should take a to build an entirely new class leader ballistic sub.

    That is because the original project was an utter failure in terms of technical specs, MOD-shipyard-design bureau coordination, and anything else you can think of.

    The two follow on hulls were done pretty fast, it is just they had no systems to instal since the systems themselves were not working on the experimental boat.

    As for "everything being solved", well, I will believe it when the St. Petersburg doesn't need to be TOWED to its supposed operational residence.


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    kvs

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:02 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:5 years is exccessive for( by your definitions) a puny non strategic  sub, especially if its not a lead ship. That's the time it should take a to build an entirely new class leader ballistic sub.

    These subs are actually quite valuable against strategic nuclear subs. They are small and take advantage of the thermocline in the oceans to
    hide themselves in the background noise. Having these subs patrolling a one 500-1000 km zone around Russia's coasts would be quite
    worthwhile.

    Six project 636 boats are being built at the same time and are to be completed by the end of 2015. The Black Sea will be the home
    of some of them. The time to build each boat is just under 1.5 years.
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    TR1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TR1 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:15 am

    kvs wrote:

    The time to build each boat is just under 1.5 years.  

    Not a single boat of the class for Russia has been built in 1.5 years.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:21 am

    TR1 wrote:
    kvs wrote:

    The time to build each boat is just under 1.5 years.  

    Not a single boat of the class for Russia has been built in 1.5 years.
    True, but they been built quickly nonetheless. When the Lada is ready, they should be built quicker because of the lower displacement and single-hull. - Have to wait and see, preferable after the 636's are completely and more funding and time can be given to the Lada.

    type055

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  type055 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:20 am

    Is there any news about lada sub export contract between China and Russia ? most import factor about lada is the HULL
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:16 pm

    type055 wrote:Is there any news about lada sub export contract between China and Russia ?   most import factor about lada is the HULL
    Don't think so... Even when the Lada's are completed, I doubt Russia will be willing to sell them soon after due to their advanced nature. To be honest, China doesn't really need any new SSK's right now anyway. - They already have 12 kilos, multiple Yuan class etc. They are probably more interested in the Lada's technology than the sub itself.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  type055 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:44 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    type055 wrote:Is there any news about lada sub export contract between China and Russia ?   most import factor about lada is the HULL
    Don't think so... Even when the Lada's are completed, I doubt Russia will be willing to sell them soon after due to their advanced nature. To be honest, China doesn't really need any new SSK's right now anyway. - They already have 12 kilos, multiple Yuan class etc. They are probably more interested in the Lada's technology than the sub itself.



    yes they are interest in mono hull , from chinese site, navy want to learn to build single hull sub, and use that tech in new nuclear sub , cos all subs china have built are double hull .
    Navy want to use their own aip and weapon , and russia build the hull, 2+2 2 made in russia 2 in China,
    but lada program seems stuck , what happen ?
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:49 pm

    type055 wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    type055 wrote:Is there any news about lada sub export contract between China and Russia ?   most import factor about lada is the HULL
    Don't think so... Even when the Lada's are completed, I doubt Russia will be willing to sell them soon after due to their advanced nature. To be honest, China doesn't really need any new SSK's right now anyway. - They already have 12 kilos, multiple Yuan class etc. They are probably more interested in the Lada's technology than the sub itself.



    yes they are interest in mono hull , from chinese site, navy want to learn to build single hull sub, and use that tech in new nuclear sub ,  cos all subs china have built are  double hull .
    Navy want to use their own aip and weapon , and russia build the hull,  2+2 2 made in russia 2 in China,
    but lada program seems stuck , what happen ?

    As I said, they are interested in the 'technology" and not the sub itself.  Russia wouldn't build the hull for China, or at least they shouldn't... They are already loaded with work, last thing they need to do is start building more export hulls. China could just license hull design or something like that. 

    It isn't stuck, read the former posts on this thread. It was delayed indefinitely, but has resumed.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:04 am

    5 years is exccessive for( by your definitions) a puny non strategic sub, especially if its not a lead ship. That's the time it should take a to build an entirely new class leader ballistic sub.

    We have guessed at 5 years, but the second two vessels were only laid down... they haven't worked on them for 5 years... they only had a successful test of the new AIP this year, so including the one year from 2005 and 2006, and from this year to the start of 2017 when it will likely be put in the water we are talking about actually 4 years and possibly less.

    The second two vessels will have significant changes from the first boat so can't be considered serial production, which means delays and testing to make sure everything works properly.

    With the actual work time 4 years or less I would say they are doing very well to produce a modern very capable SSK with all new state of the art technologies... of which there is no western equivalent.

    That is because the original project was an utter failure in terms of technical specs, MOD-shipyard-design bureau coordination, and anything else you can think of.

    If it was an utter failure it would not be kept in service... they don't need a dog.

    but lada program seems stuck , what happen ?

    AIP only just had full size testing, and Lithium Ion batteries are also new.

    When ready its performance will be excellent.
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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:54 am

    The second diesel-electric submarine Project 677 "Kronstadt" for the Russian Navy will be launched in late 2015.

    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:54 am

    CDB "Ruby": submarine with VNEU in Russia will be built in 2016


    Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (CDB ME) "Ruby" is the chief architect of the construction of submarines in Russia. According to the drawings, "Rubin" is now under construction and the latest nuclear missile type "Northwind", and diesel-electric "Lada" and "Varshavyanka", and others. Until the end of the year "Admiralty Shipyards" give another submarine of the Russian Navy, "Rostov-on-Don."

    On what are the plans of "Ruby" in 2015 and what tasks submarine designers decide today told the heads of the relevant wording RIA Novosti Sergei Safronov, Deputy Director General for Foreign Economic Affairs and Military-Technical Cooperation CDB ME "Rubin" Andrey Baranov.


    - Andrew I., tell us about the development of the project "Harmony". Do resumed their construction?

    - As for the "Lada" answer is obvious - their construction resumed. "Kronstadt" is based on "Sevastopol" must be signed state contract for construction. About the sins of which we are accused Vladimir Vysotsky (former Commander of the Navy criticized the project for the 677 most noise - Ed.), Then we get rid of them during execution of the tasks on the head boat "Saint Petersburg".

    Now for the sins we are not numbers, so these boats are built as a serial.

    - Will the "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" feature anaerobic (airindependent) power plants?

    - Anaerobic installation developing a parallel course. It is a prototype. Completed research and development, so now the next stage of work - creation of a prototype. Prototype, in fact, this is the compartment of the submarine.

    - When can I see it in the metal?


    - Our plans have not changed yet, 2016 - year of prototyping.

    - They can be set to "Kronstadt" and "Sebastopol"?

    - No, but these boats are built to improve the draft, they VNEU not installed. This decision was taken by the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation for the purpose of construction of these two ships as soon as possible to the boat became part of the Russian Navy in the early part of the program update non-nuclear fleet. VNEU can be installed from the fourth body, that we must now confirm the tests to be performed with the prototype.

    - Technologically, they also can be embedded in the body, for example, "Kronstadt"?


    - This is hardly anyone will do, but conditional yes. You can embed always something, but are engaged only in extreme cases. We are talking about the development of this series, so much more logical to build a fourth, fifth, sixth, and so on housing. It will be technically justified, and the money is much more effective. The more that the freshly boat again to put the plant and cut in half ... So why we built it? Not for experiments, they need the fleet - every bayonet counts.

    - What are the prospects of the project 636 boats? A series of these boats for the Black Sea Fleet will be the last?


    - Over the past 15 years, tirelessly, we sell for export boats of this project in different countries. All of them are armed with highly effective missile complex "Club", which works both on shore and on ships. Boats of this project is fully updated electronics, mechanical equipment, hydrodynamics. This boat is almost perfect. Another thing is that it is larger than the "Lada". And it can be regarded as a definite minus. After all, "Lada" has the same features. On the other hand, it is a ship flue which "Admiralty shipyard" built every year practically continuously. The second decade they are doing, so here is fully debugged cooperation, serial clearly allows the algorithm to predict construction. Do not want to jinx "Shipyards", but they are not in breach of any term obligations to supply boats or 636 for foreign customers or to our fleet. It's worth it.

    If you look at what is happening in the world, you will see a failure occurred on the Spanish S-80, the supply of which they delayed for a few years. And what were the difficulties in the same boat at the time of the Germans to the Greeks. Therefore, I believe that the Navy has taken quite the right decision to close the current gap for non-nuclear submarines, decided to build a boat of 636 project for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Of course, they have the resources to upgrade, but for the Russian Navy, perhaps this is the last order for non-nuclear submarines of this project. Then of course pass on boat building the next generation - Project 677 "Lada".

    - That is, the project will be eliminated?

    - There can not talk about the elimination, in this project, firstly, there is a large export potential. Secondly, this project has a very good possibility of modernization. If the boat this year entered the Black Sea Fleet, then it specified lifetime of 25 years, plus the possibility of extending more than ten years. Here and add. Will not find it. These boats will be active participants in the military-industrial activity in the next 30 years, or even 40, given that this series has not yet mastered all. Plus that is based on the export ... So this is a very serious issue, a serious business in all respects. Many countries are in need of maintenance, spare parts to it.

    - Rocket complex "Club" also will be improved?

    - Missiles as a complex "Club" is the export performance of the domestic complex "Caliber" (which, in particular, armed with the latest Russian submarine type "Severdvinsk" (Project 885) "Ash" - Ed.). It has great potential, including for export. At the "CLUB" is limited to a distance of 300 kilometers, and "Caliber" - a thousand.

    - In October in Paris hosted the exhibition "Euronaval 2014". What are the prospects of military-technical cooperation, "Rubin" with other countries?

    - There are prerequisites to expand our traditional geography, for which we are actively fighting. The most promising region - is South-East Asia. In Latin America, the political situation easier, and in Southeast Asia are all friendly and and sharpen knives. There's degree of tension is growing very rapidly. Significantly, as promptly Vietnam decided to strengthen its submarine fleet. This is not something to record, but it is one of the most quickly prepared, designed and carried out contracts. He's already at the final stage - a contract to build six submarines of project 636 (upgraded Project 877 "Varshavyanka" was signed in 2009).

    - When it is completed?

    - I think that in 2015, because it has already dealt the final boat ... This is a very long product - submarine. He suggests a long ointment parties acquaintance, usually it is very important what basis exists in the relations of countries. And with Vietnam the situation is resolved in a fantastic pace. In 2008 he was the first trip to the technical presentations, and now, six years have passed, we have, in fact, complete the contract. Now this year laid the last boat of the contract, two in the fleet are already active, the two will be directed, that is, the process of developing with tremendous speed.

    - And the creation of infrastructure for the deployment of boats in Cam Ranh is also spelled out in the contract?


    - Be sure, but there are different performers head. For the construction of boats - it works "Admiralty Shipyards" for infrastructure - Technology Center and shipbuilding, which specializes in these matters, and, again, "Admiralty Shipyards", which carry the warranty. Year warranty from the moment the last boat will be commissioned, plus one year. This period dense presence "Admiralty Shipyards" in Vietnam as part of a group guarantee to solve all the problems that may arise.

    Infrastructure for the home being built now active, but we must distinguish between the infrastructure for the deployment and repair.

    For the home is in a high-availability, and to repair because the repair is still somewhere ahead, will be completed later. I have no doubt that all this will be done on time, with quality, because we have a very good partnership with the country.

    - Which countries are still negotiating the possible purchase of boats?


    - There were negotiations with Indonesia, which, unfortunately, give up our Project 877 boats from the presence of the fleet. Was this story this year. Two boats from the Russian Navy and offer to repair them pass.

    Nevertheless, interest in our boats in Indonesia is preserved. This country for a long time, we are looking with great interest, with a great desire to work with them.

    As for the other countries in the region, there is already a clear separation of suppliers. As you know, Malaysia and Singapore - relatively pro-European, Thailand was not identified, but he, like all the countries of the region, quite a tight budget. They must first find out who would give money to debt. Then, of course, who gave, he also sold. Nevertheless, we are also trying to Thailand in the format of exhibitions in the region to maintain cordial relations. There are quite fallen Philippines, they are pro-American, but at the same time now there is a trend that the Americans are treated with some suspicion as to the suppliers. Either they have to completely surrender and follow in line with their policy, and then everything will be fine. But if you want to have anything to do an opinion, you have to be quite careful. It is very important the country's reputation as a reliable supplier. In the naval sphere we still keep the brand, try to observe all obligations.

    For example, the French now for us is very dangerous competitor, one of the most powerful players, and the situation with the "Mistral" is important from the point of view of a reliable supplier. If the contract is for Russia to "Mistral" will fail, it will strain once a number of countries that might be in the same situation as Russia.

    It must be borne in mind that the involvement of at least one country in the orbit of our cooperation boat - it's almost a watershed event.

    - What is the state contract with Italy on the development of small diesel-electric submarine S-1000 thousand tons of displacement?


    - The project is now frozen for political reasons. But privately with Fincantieri we continue to contact, clerical process goes forward to normalize the situation.

    - Before freezing the contract that the parties have time to do?


    - Conceptual design has been developed, a business plan, that is, in fact, prepared an offer to a potential customer. We have been jointly developing the marketing program to promote this boat in the regions. In the past year, we have already begun to implement this program. The Italians offered to this project in South Africa. This boat is offered to countries that are potentially interested in buying an inexpensive, compact, simple enough to operate the submarine. But this year, the process has stalled.

    - Where it is supposed to build S-1000?


    - The question of where it will build this boat until open. We will rely on the capabilities of the Russian factories and the ability of Fincantieri. The issue price and the issue of customer preference. In general, everything is developing normally. Submarines - not fast theme, but in fact the year, unfortunately, we have already lost. We had planned a working group in March, but, unfortunately, it is now postponed indefinitely. Now the plan was to take place the Russian-Italian commission on military cooperation, but so far there is no evidence, and the plans for its implementation.

    - The project is now frozen, it can not be eliminated at all?

    - The project is not going anywhere, ready to hand at the political decision to resume the dialogue. And I think this applies to a wide range of cooperation between Russia and European countries.
    Sergey Safronov
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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:15 pm

    what is VNEU ?

    Alex555

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Alex555 on Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:27 pm

    George1 wrote:what is VNEU ?
    VNEU = anaerobic (airindependent) power plants.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:35 pm

    Interesting post, so the second and third Lada vessels will only have Lithium Ion batteries to boost performance, while the fourth Lada vessel will have AIP and LiIon batteries.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  mutantsushi on Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:01 am

    Yeah, with Nuclear boats already in fleet, ultra long range/endurance isn't necessarily the #1 priority,
    the advances in stealth, capabilities, are what is wanted out of these boats, so losing some endurance isn't worst thing.

    Interestingly, I've read that Japan now plans to upgrade future Soryu with solely Li-ion batteries without any AIP...
    Australia is also supposedly sole sourcing from Japan (+stretch?) rather than competing vs. Navantia et al.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:29 am

    The key thing there is that the Russian AIP is brand new technology, while the Japanese/Aussie tech is hydrogen membrane fuel cell.

    The Russian technology has the enormous advantage that the raw resource is diesel, from which electricity is produced at a dramatically faster rate than a hydrogen fuel cell.

    This means that the Aussie/Jap AIP needs hydrogen handling equipment at every port the sub will operate from... hydrogen handling equipment is expensive because hydrogen slowly seeps through all sorts of materials and is a huge fire risk.

    Every port on the planet has infrastructure already in place to deliver diesel fuel to ships and subs.... even tiny ports because that is the standard fuel of most ocean going vessels (civilian anyway).

    I rather suspect the second and third Lada will be fitted for, but not with AIP just because of the time scales.

    Experience in retrofitting AIP to the Ladas would be instrumental in deciding whether to retro fit AIP to the Kilos.

    mutantsushi

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  mutantsushi on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:45 pm

    ???
    Japan (and now likely AU) is planning on dumping AIP completely and going 100% Li-ion batteries.
    Japan previously used a licenced Kockums Stirling system,
    what you describe with hydrogen fuel cells sounds like AIP used in HDW 212...
    The new Russian AIP system in fact sounds broadly similar to what DCNS is planning for their next gen AIP,
    I'd be curious what any major differences are, but they both suppose to use diesel and not store Hydrogen AFAIK.
    The thing with both is by the time their development is done, battery tech will also have advanced as well.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:51 pm

    mutantsushi wrote:???
    Japan (and now likely AU) is planning on dumping AIP completely and going 100% Li-ion batteries.
    Japan previously used a licenced Kockums Stirling system,
    what you describe with hydrogen fuel cells sounds like AIP used in HDW 212...
    The new Russian AIP system in fact sounds broadly similar to what DCNS is planning for their next gen AIP,
    I'd be curious what any major differences are, but they both suppose to use diesel and not store Hydrogen AFAIK.
    The thing with both is by the time their development is done, battery tech will also have advanced as well.

    Yes.. Nonetheless AIP submarine with Li-Ion battery will have longer endurance than one rely on the Li-Ion battery alone.

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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:36 pm

    Air Ιndependent running prototype power plant for non-nuclear submarines will be installed in Lada submarines in 2015
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:44 pm

    George1 wrote:Air Ιndependent running prototype power plant for non-nuclear submarines will be installed in Lada submarines in 2015

    Good.. This is the news i've been waiting for. Now let's see what kind of AIP they're installed.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:52 am

    The thing with both is by the time their development is done, battery tech will also have advanced as well.

    Don't think of it as AIP vs Batteries.

    AIP allows a sub to generate electricity without operating near the surface with a snorkel running a diesel engine to produce the electricity.

    It means the SSK can go to any depth it likes and not need to surface to recharge the batteries... it can recharge its batteries while underwater performing normal duties.

    Very simply it makes it more like a nuke sub, independent of the surface. More importantly it means it is even more quiet than a nuke which has a cooling system and a gas turbine with super heated steam operating all the time to generate power.

    If battery technology suddenly takes a giant leap forward that is OK because you still need to charge those batteries in the first place and you need an AIP or an air dependent propulsion (ADP) to recharge those batteries. For most subs the ADP is a diesel engine that is either run when the sub is on the surface or snorkelling, for future Russian subs it will have the option of remaining submerged and relatively safe and using AIP to recharge the batteries.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:01 pm

    Kronshtadt Very Happy


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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:36 pm

    The contract for the construction of the fourth non-nuclear submarines of Project 677 "Lada" expected to be signed at the end of 2015, the fleet should receive the submarine in 2019.

    http://www.flotprom.ru/2015/182734/
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    Viktor

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:59 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Second and third submarine type "Harmony" will give the Russian Navy in 2017 and 2018

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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