Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues

Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development 5 5 2

    Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Share

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 3963
    Points: 4309
    Join date: 2010-05-08
    Age: 38
    Location: India

    Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Austin on Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:46 pm

    Have some update on Amur program from latest issue of FORCE ( www.forceindia.net )

    Deep Sea Quest
    A case for Russia’s Amur submarine for Indian Navy’s P-75I programme

    By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov

    Moscow: Three recent developments may help the Russians win the ongoing international competition for the Project 75(I): the Russian Navy’s commissioning of the Saint Petersburg, big domestic orders placed with the nation’s largest submarine builder — Sevmash and preparations for underwater trials of the BrahMos cruise missile.
    In the middle of 2010, Indian defence minister A.K. Antony gave approval for the Project 75(I), calling for procurement of six conventional (non-nuclear) submarines for USD 10.7 billion. While two vessels are to be constructed in the collaborator country, the remaining four are scheduled to be built in India, under license.
    According to the defence procurement practices, suitable companies from major exporting countries were invited to bid. They were forwarded Request for Information (RFI) in the second half of 2010 and the



    request for proposal (RFP) is expected in the middle of 2012. If things move on time, the results are expected by 2014, and the delivery of the first vessel by 2016-2017.
    Four contenders — Rosoboronexport of Russia, Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) of Germany, DCNS of France and Navantia of Spain — are offering Amur 1650, Type 214, Scorpene and S-80 respectively. According to the RFI, circle of possible options was confined to those designs that were based on prototypes in existence.

    The Russian Navy operates the Saint Petersburg, head vessel of the Project 677 design, codenamed Lada. The Amur 1650 is the latter’s export derivative. The German Navy operates Type 212 U-boats, from which the Type 214 was derived for export purposes. The French Navy operates only nuclear-powered submarines, but DCNS has already delivered a pair of Scorpene submarines to Chile, another pair to Malaysia and is supplying six to India under license-production contract with Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL). Navantia’s product does not meet the above requirement, but this may change soon as the Spanish Navy takes delivery of its first S-80, now under construction some time in 2013-2015.

    The Indian Navy operates four Shishumar class submarines of the German Type 209 and 10 Russian-built Project 877EKM attributed to the Sindhughosh class. It use to have eight older Russian submarines, but the last of those, the INS Vagli, retired in 2011 after 36 years of service. Of the existing fleet, only four submarines are expected to remain operational in 2020 and none in 2025.

    India has plans for 24 new non-nuclear submarines, of which, 12 shall be built locally and 12 by the collaborator. In 2003-2005, France won the order for six Scorpene class submarines worth over USD four billion. These are being constructed locally at MDL in Mumbai. Sadly, the construction process has been going slower than originally envisioned.

    Meanwhile, India is also developing its nuclear submarine called Advanced Technology Vehicle, with the head vessel, Arihant nearly ready for sea trials. Besides, under a special deal between Kremlin and New Delhi, the Indian Navy is going to operate, under lease terms, a Project 971 submarine. The ship Nerpa, with tactical number K-152, is undergoing acceptance trials. Upon the completion of the trials, she will go south and serve there as INS Chakra. The Indian Navy may have as many as five or six nuclear-powered submarines in 2020. This would be a big development, but the need for modern conventional submarines will remain.

    Face-Off

    Germany, France and Russia have been competing for submarine orders round the world for decades. In this respect, each of the three has its strong and weak points. Broadly speaking, the West Europeans are considered better at air-independent propulsion (AIP) technologies in non-nuclear vessels. The Germans claim their Type 212 can move submerged at speed of three knots for nearly 14 days. This is made possible through the use of 300kWt AIP, based on fuel elements, and the use of stored oxygen.

    The Russian submarines have better chances in a duel situation. In this respect, the current production Project 636 (06363) is pictured as prevailing over the contemporary German and French designs. The newer Amur 1650 is even better, due to more powerful acoustic system, lesser noise and lower displacement (1,765t against 2,350t).

    As an added bonus, the Russian submarines can be equipped with Club-S missile system from Novator, an export version of the Caliber on the Russian Navy ships. The Club-S can fire three types of missiles, the anti-ship 3M-54, the anti-submarine 91R and the land-strike 3M-14. Today, such missilery is available only from Russia. In the course of modernisation and upgrade, Indian Navy’s Project 877EKM submarines have been obtaining the Club-S.

    It is interesting to note that certain countries with reputation as capable submarine builders are not bidding in India, this time. At one point, there were speculations that the S-1000 was being offered. This is a Russian design made under contract by Fincantieri of Italy, as an inexpensive ‘no-frills’ submarine, with displacement of 1,000 tons, intended mostly for coastal protection. Respective development contract was signed in 2004 and fulfilled shortly afterwards. However, neither the S-1000, nor its completely Russian equivalent Amur 950, is on offer to India.

    Swedish Kockums company is working on the A26 with 1,900 ton displacement, after building a series of three Gotland 1,500 ton submarines. The Gotland features Sterling-type AIP with underwater time up to 20 days. Australia operates six similar Collins class submarines produced in 1996-2003, while Singapore will soon be taking a pair of 1,500-tonne Archer submarines after they were rebuilt in Sweden. It is believed that after HDW took control over Kockums in 2004, it has the right to control the latter’s export operations. And, HDW chose to reply to the Indian RFI with the Type 214 offer.



    Starting in 1998, HDW has been supplying Type 212 U-boats to German and Italian navies with eight deliveries, so far. The exportable Type 214 is larger, with displacement of 1,960t against 1,450t. So far, nine deliveries have been made to Portugal, Republic of Korea and Greece.

    Early sale success was somewhat marred by media reports about numerous design deficiencies. The U-boats tended to be unstable when surfaced, especially in strong winds, their AIPs produced lower output and overheated. There were reports of water leaking into hydraulics, periscope vibrations, cavitation, which decreased the propeller’s efficiency, and certain onboard sensors worked unstably. In 2010-2011, the RoK Navy reportedly withdrew submarines from active service temporarily for repairs, as nearly 30 cases of loosing bolts were discovered on three vessels.
    The fairly advanced and innovative design of Type 212/214 at the turn of the century, could not escape the inevitable teething problems. However, most of them are believed to have been cured by now, and the German product is widely considered front-runner in the ongoing completion.

    The S-80 is the largest of the four competing designs with 2,400t displacement. Worldwide economic crisis and the problems in the Euro zone postponed completion of the first Spanish Navy vessel from 2011 to 2013, and then over to 2015. Herein lies its weakest point. The S-80 is a very advanced submarine featuring an all-new but untried AIP solution, with a bio-ethanol processor of hydrogen. The S-80 has a combat management system from Lockheed Martin. While, this insures high quality, such advanced systems of US origin come with restrictions on access to their codes, algorithms and software package.

    France has already won Indian order for six Scorpene vessels. Increasing the numbers to 12 may be beneficial to local partner MDL. France does not operate Scorpene for itself, but Portugal and Malaysia operate them in a simplified 1,500-t version without AIP. KD Tunku Abdul Rahman and KD Tun Razak completed in 2009, for the Malaysian Navy, reportedly had problems when getting submerged. Contract worth over Euro two billion raised concerns in the country, with claims made against certain government members. Adding to DCNS’ troubles were charges of corruption.




    DCNS has produced unique type of AIP called MESMA (Module d’Energie Sous-Marin Autonome). MESMA makes use of a steam turbine. Steam is generated by combustion of ethanol and oxygen stored under pressure of 60 atmospheres. There is only one submarine actually outfitted with MESMA, the Pakistan Navy’s third hull of the Agosta 90B class. The S137 Hanza differs from her sister ships in having displacement of 2,050 tons against 1,760, and comes equipped with a 200kW MESMA. Reportedly, she did not manage to develop the advertised four knots, her actual speed falling one knot behind the promise.

    Naturally, use of compact steam turbines predetermines relatively low efficiency, in range of 15-26 per cent compared to 42-46 per cent for the German AIP
    solution and 50-55 per cent for the Russian. The latter two centre on use of fuel cells and electrochemical generators and have power output in the region of 300-350 kW, just enough to make three-four knots under water.

    BrahMos

    BrahMos Aerospace under the leadership of Dr Sivathanu Pillai is a joint venture between India and Russia. The company develops the PJ-10 supersonic cruise missile able to strike at stationary and moving surface targets, such as warships. Based on the Russian systems known under names of the Onix, Alfa and Yakhont, the PJ-10 has a launch weight of four tons. If a decision to use the BrahMos missiles on the Project 75(I) ships is taken, the resulting submarine will appear to have a stretched hull, to house one more compartment amidships. This one will house a number of vertical launch containers. Models of the Amur 1650 exhibited at international show how this will be done.

    There could be varied reasons to integrate BrahMos in the existing European hulls, but it seems to be a difficult proposition. For instance, the Germans keep reservoirs for hydrogen storage in the upper part of the hull just aft of the conning tower.
    Besides, it is not about simply making a stretch to accommodate one more hull section — the effort also requires combat management and other systems to serve the missiles and insure their effective employment in wartime. Of the three European bidders, only France has experience of launching missiles vertically from under water depths.

    The Russians can smoothly integrate the BrahMos on their ships, as they have a rich experience in vertical launches and, more importantly, invented the BrahMos itself as a derivative of the Onix system, in use on Russian submarines.
    Russian weaknesses are chiefly aftermaths of the system crisis in their defence industrial complex that developed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Meeting offset requirements is particularly an issue. Negotiations on the matter of offset need active participation of Russia’s integrated structures such as the United Shipbuilding Corporation (OSK) and Russian Technologies State Corporation.

    Options and Possibilities


    India may choose to buy more submarines from abroad in addition to acquisitions under the Projects 75 and 75(I). This may involve more Project 971 ships and, perhaps, the Project 636 as well. The latter has been popular with China, which added six improved ships in 2004-2006 to a pair acquired in 1997-1998. Besides, China has commenced building copies known as the Yuan class. Algeria took two vessels in 2009 and Vietnam signed for six. Last year, the Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg laid down the Novorossiysk and the Rostov-upon-Don for the Russian Navy’s Black Sea Fleet. The local customer has ordered four more improved Project 636 (06363) vessels.

    The Project 636 was on offer in India sometime ago. This time, however, the Russians responded to the new Indian RFI with the more modern Amur 1650. The decision was influenced by the Russian Navy commander’s order dated 6 May 2010, on inclusion of the St Petersburg, the head vessel of Project 677, into inventory of the Baltic Sea Fleet, supplemented by ritual hoisting of the Russian Navy flag.

    Development of the Lada commenced in the middle of Eighties. It was meant to be a sort of interceptor, able to defeat US fast-attack submarines, operating off Russian coasts which were trying to detect and then shadow Russian strategic nuclear submarines on deterrent patrols. For this purpose, the Project 677 was made quieter and smaller than its predecessor Project 636, yet equipped with much more powerful acoustic sensors.

    At the turn of the century, the Admiralty Shipyards laid down two series hulls, the Kronshtadt and the Sevastopol for the Russian Navy, and a third for export. In November, Rubin chief engineer Igor Vilnit told the media: “Construction of these vessels for the navy goes on in accordance with respective Russian government orders. Meantime, the head vessel, the St Petersburg, is undergoing modernisation and overhauling work in preparations of her operational trials in northern waters, according to the plans of the Russian defence ministry and the navy.”
    The Admiralty Shipyards reports that the series hulls are 40 per cent and 10 per cent complete respectively, while the export hull is ready for outfitting with systems. This creates good foundations for fulfilling would-be foreign orders, should overseas customers buy the Amur 1650.

    n 2011, the Sevmash company (also referred to as SMP) declared its intent to built diesel-electric submarines along with the Admiralty Shipyards. Sevmash specialises in nuclear-powered submarines, with 128 units having been built in Severodvinsk so far, following commissioning of the K-3 in 1958. The company says that, without slowing down construction of nuclear-powered submarines for the Russian Navy, it can produce at least one diesel-electric submarine for export customers annually.

    This statement comes along with another one: Sevmash and its patron OSK are talking to the Russian defence ministry on construction of three to four improved Project 636 submarines for the Russian Navy. Initially, the customer wanted to take six units from the Admiralty Shipyards, but latter was booked to capacity with previous orders, including that from the Vietnamese Navy. The builder is moving out of St Petersburg city to a new site on the island of Kotlin.

    The importance of Sevmash is that, it adds considerably to the Russian export capabilities, especially in terms of production quality, and fulfilling industrial offset requirements. With workforce of 27,000, it is not only the largest shipbuilder in Russia, but also the best equipped and financially stable.

    In November 2011, the Russian defence ministry awarded OSK and Sevmash orders for construction of four Project 955A Borey-A strategic nuclear submarines, in addition to three Project 955 Boreys, already built in Severodvinsk. The customer had ordered five Project 885M Yasen-M nuclear fast-attack submarines, in addition to the head vessel, now under sea trials. The exact sum of these contracts has not been made public but it is known that the Alexander Nevsky, a second Borey-class vessel, was build under contract worth Rouble 23 billion, which equates to USD 0.75 billion.

    Lada Goes Through its Paces


    Five years of the St Petersburg’s operational trials have highlighted issues that need to be resolved before the Project 677 goes into full scale production. It is a standard Russian practice that head vessel of a brand-new type goes through vigorous testing before permission is given for full scale production. For instance, a previous generation Russian design had a 4-year operational trails period on two ships during which the navy made nearly 30 major and half-a-thousand minor claims, and these were subsequently addressed and resolved by the industry before launching the type into quantity production.

    Since entering service, St Petersburg sailed Baltic waters regularly every year, for trials and working out war tactics. Work on preparations of improved design for the Russian Navy is proceeding well, in view of the completion date of 2013.
    In relation to the Project 75(I) competition, AIP is the hottest issue. By the time the Indian tender committee comes to the selection process of the most suitable supplier, work on shaping Amur 1650’s AIP would be complete. Due to huge investments in new technologies in the Soviet times, the Russian scientists have amassed large experience in fuel cells, and have tried them on submarines and spacecraft, and more recently, on unmanned air vehicles.

    The Amur 1650 is offered with AIP that employs fuel cells and reforming of diesel fuel for hydrogen by means of electro chemical generator. This solution permits to escape the need of storing hydrogen onboard submarines, as the Germans do, and rather generate it, as necessary. This eases issues with coastal infrastructure and crew safety.

    Experimental unit is under bench trials, and is available for inspection by Indian specialists. Next step in the programme is construction of AIP full-scale prototype. This work is being done by Rubin under the company’s initiative, in reply to requests of potential foreign customers.

    It is interesting to notice that unlike certain Europeans, the Russian Navy is not interested in AIP. As a result, no R&D work is being pursued in relation to Project 677. The Russian thinking is that underwater time can better be enlarged by increased capacity of accumulator batteries. The classic acid batteries are giving way to newer ion-lithium. As of now, the St Petersburg is equipped with a classic battery, but in future, it will be replaced by ion-lithium, when latter gets available. It is expected that the Amur-1650 with ion-lithium batteries can get a two fold increase in underwater time – from 9 days currently up to 16, which is comparable to the current levels of German U-boats with AIP. What may happen is that Indian specialists working on the RFP to the Project 75(I) would finally drop their early requirement for AIP and rather specify underwater time and other parameters of autonomous operations.

    Duel Situation

    Another example illustrating difference in Russian and European approaches is a duel scenario. Starting from the Project 641B, the Soviet (and then Russian) thinking was focussed on lowering acoustic fields so that diesel-electric submarines could be effectively employed on defence of naval bases and coastal waters against US fast-attack submarines, seeking to shadow Russian strategic nuclear submarines. The Soviet Union invested heavily in powerful acoustic sensors that would enable its submarines to detect enemy ships at greater distances, and allow for timely execution of evasive manoeuvres or first-see-first-strike sort of action.

    Acoustic signature can be decreased by means of employing electrical motors on permanent magnets. The Russians and the Germans went that way, brining to life, motors like Siemens Permasyn on Type 212/214, a unitary engine for ‘creeping’ towards target, economic cruise and full speed. This has been a new direction in conventional submarine development, which met numerous difficulties. Higher-than-advertised noised levels were reported for RoK and Helenic navy vessels. In turn, the Russians managed to achieve noise levels, but still worked on their SED-1 motor, trying to make it deliver the full advertised power. During sea trials of St Petersburg, underwater speed tended to increase, but it is still some two-three knots below specification.

    The Project 677 features state-of-the-art Lira acoustic detection system from Elektropribor company, complete with huge quasi-conformal antennae. As a result, the Saint Petersburg fared better in simulated duels with previous-generation submarines. The Lira has demonstrated stable work in Baltic waters but still needs checking in deeper ocean waters. Following completion of the Saint Petersburg modernisation and repairs, the ship will go to the Arctic for testing purposes in 2012.

    During public discussions on future of the Russian Naval forces in the time when the Russian Navy was choosing between the improved Project 636 and Project 677, to equip the Black Sea Fleet, lots of information became available on results of Saint Petersburg testing. This included making public certain facts about her teething problems such as that with SED-1. Bits of that information have been skilfully used by interested parties in a campaign against the newer Russian project, seemingly in an effort to decrease its chances in the global marketplace. Competition in the Project 75(I) tender is expected to be hot, and in many ways, decisive of the future of Russian non-nuclear submarines.

    (The writer is a Russian journalist based in Moscow)

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 10183
    Points: 10747
    Join date: 2010-03-30
    Location: New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:41 pm

    Very interesting... thanks for posting.

    Especially the bit about UAVs using fuel cells... lets face it... a UAV has plenty of air available to run an internal combustion engine, so the only reason to power a UAV with a fuel cell is to reduce noise.

    Internal Combustion engines are noisy, while fuel cells are like batteries and are quiet as they generate electricity to run electric motors... which is ideal for a submarine, but would only make sense for a UAV if it needed to be very quiet...

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts: 2113
    Points: 3063
    Join date: 2009-07-10
    Location: Perm, Russian Federation

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:58 pm

    There isn't a chance Lada will be a contender for P-75I.

    Navy refused the newest submarine project "Lada"

    "St. Petersburg" will be the only boat of this project, which will be experienced and not a part of the Navy



    "Saint Petersburg". Photo: A. Morozov

    In the Main Staff of the Navy, "Izvestiya" reported on Wednesday that the testing program of the project "Lada", from which 10 years ago there were plans to upgrade non-nuclear submarine force, had collapsed.

    - In the battle fleet, "St. Petersburg" will not be accepted. This is the final decision. The boat will remain prototypes, which will be tested separate complexes - a senior representative of the Command of the Navy.

    The main drawback of "Lada" interlocutor "Izvestia" described is crude engine, which proved unable to develop more than half of the given project power.

    In addition, the sonar system is not ready the boat for the development of which was spent 1.3 billion rubles, the combat information management system "Lithium" and torpedo "TE-2 toy" remains undeveloped.

    - Beautiful on a plan, the project was unsuccessful. In fact, we have a full-scale model of the ship. The boat is fully obsolete on a number of important areas. Its defects and the rapid aging of existing diesel submarines are forcing us to return to the tried and tested "Kilo" - summed up the representative of the Navy.

    According to him, work on two other boats of the project "Lada" - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol", the body which is fully ready, now frozen. Perhaps they are already tested equip engines from other projects, legacy systems and will be sold abroad.

    http://www.izvestia.ru/news/507580

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 10183
    Points: 10747
    Join date: 2010-03-30
    Location: New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:43 am

    This report has already been discussed from memory.

    It is essentially true, yet fundamentally wrong.

    The lead ship of the Lada class wlll not enter operational service and will be used for testing.

    Sounds catastrophic... but actually isn't.

    They tested it and found that certain things don't work to the level they need to work... which is not to say it is unworkable.

    For testing, normally they have to take an in service submarine from service to do operational testing... ie checking sonar signature from an external source etc etc, so using this prototype as a testbed is a good thing.

    The two vessels that have been laid can benefit from the problems found with the first boat and solutions can be applied to solve those problems and get their performance to spec.

    The Navy has ordered new Kilos in the mean time as they are proven and capable designs.


    Submarine Project 677 upgrade after 2013 - CDB "Ruby"

    24/11/2011 15:34

    MOSCOW, November 24 - RIA Novosti. Diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 "Lada" will modernize the technical refinement of the project will be completed in 2013, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, general manager of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" (project developer), Andrew deacons.

    He was commenting on reports by some media that the test boats of this project have been frozen.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013.

    A series of Russian diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise level with a powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.

    The boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and vessels of the enemy, protect naval bases, sea coast and sea lanes, conduct reconnaissance. Series is a development project 877 "halibut." Displacement of the ship is 1765 tons, the maximum depth - 350 meters, speed - 21 knots, the crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, and air defense systems "Igla-1M."

    source: http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111124/496875886.html

    The article you posted is dated November 23 2011, and the article I posted above is dated November 24 2011, and is clearly in direct response to the article you posted.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts: 2113
    Points: 3063
    Join date: 2009-07-10
    Location: Perm, Russian Federation

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:54 pm

    With an engine working only at half power, weapon systems that do not function and obsolete systems this submarine does not reach the goals of a modern SSK. State timelines are meaningless proven time and again. Funding has not been provided for completion and won't be until it is determined a viable product. We have to wait many years for the State to come out and say a project is terminated. It is just a matter of time before they are forced to admit it.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 10183
    Points: 10747
    Join date: 2010-03-30
    Location: New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:21 pm

    The stuff being developed for the Lada is all new and state of the art... that is why there are problems with it.

    The article I posted above is from the makers of the submarine, so it is hardly unbiased... but if the sub was crap they would have scrapped it and the two subs laid down and would then have had to start from scratch to design and build new conventional subs.

    The facts of the matter are that the Lada contains all their latest technology, which if it works is world leading.

    If you read the article that started this thread... German subs with their "Amazing" AIPs can operate at 4 knts for 14 days underwater, while this Lada sub can operate underwater for 16 days at 4knts on batteries alone!

    Doesn't sound obsolete to me.

    It has some problems and they are working on those problems and plan to have solved those problems by next year.

    They will apply those solutions to the already laid down hulls fo the next two vessels... and lets be realistic, it is possible that they might not finish them very quickly and also that the new solutions are not completely successful.

    The Lada is significantly better than any model Kilo on paper, so if these new Project 677M subs are only getting close to what the project 677 was supposed to be at least it is a step forward.

    If the 677 is obsolete rubbish then why keep it at all?

    Very simply what I am saying is that even if it is not as good as it is supposed to be it will be better than what they currently have.

    I think it will actually be a very good with a smaller crew and lighter displacement, but a better sonar and command and control systems and new torpedoes it should be a very capable system when it is actually ready for service.

    Problems during development are better than problems during service... it is best to sort things out now and build upgraded Kilos to fill the gap than to rush production of Ladas now and sort out the problems while they are in service/production.

    I have read an article where a Russian Navy official states that their plans are for 5 upgraded kilos to be built and 5 Lada class vessels to be built by 2020. The Kilos are already ordered and the Ladas are scheduled to start production after 2013.

    If they did have to cancel it it would be incredibly expensive to start an all new program... especially as it is unlikely that any country that has developed AIPs will share that technology.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 10183
    Points: 10747
    Join date: 2010-03-30
    Location: New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:54 pm

    The Russian Navy had problems developing the new Project 677 Lada diesel-electric submarines, whereas Project 877 Paltus (Kilo class) submarines continued to age rapidly. As a result, the Navy had to order upgraded Project 636-M (Kilo class) submarines once again. In August 2010, the keel of a lead Project 636-M submarine was laid for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Over the next decade, the Navy will replace obsolete Paltus submarines with improved models, while continuing to upgrade the Lada submarine. The Navy is to operate four to five Ladas, as well as 9-12 upgraded and 5-6 obsolete Paltus submarines.

    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101102/161183586.html

    from November 2010, and in practical terms a motor not running to max spec performance and a Sonar system that operates well in the baltic and will likely be tested in deeper water this year needs minor fixes rather than replacement... it is a high performance set designed to detect enemy SSNs near Russian SSBNs and ports.

    Most likely the current version of Sigma C4IR system will likely be added to the 677M vessels as that system is standard on all other new surface vessels and subs.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 3963
    Points: 4309
    Join date: 2010-05-08
    Age: 38
    Location: India

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:32 pm

    Vlad , do not just trust blindly what izvestia has to say , it is known for many comical news like procurement of shuttle for badminton becuase Medvedev said it improves concentration and many other.

    Izvestia is basicly crap , unless its confirmed by many source.

    Rubin director has said in an interview to Rian recently that the next 2 lada will be built to improved standard and will be based on feedback from the first boat ...so Lada will live and will get better.

    They have also tested a unique AIP for it that generated hydrogen on the fly and does not have to store and uses diesel to do it.Its very promising technology for AIP and more safer then the germans one which stores hydrogen on board.

    Kilo wont last for long and they know that , so they will pursue it in the long term interest of industry and for the navy , no two views on that.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 10183
    Points: 10747
    Join date: 2010-03-30
    Location: New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:47 am

    They have also tested a unique AIP for it that generated hydrogen on the fly and does not have to store and uses diesel to do it.Its very promising technology for AIP and more safer then the germans one which stores hydrogen on board.

    The Russians have really thought about this and have invested a lot of money into the new AIP, and also they have invested a lot of money in developing Lithium Ion batteries too.

    The genius of their AIP is that because it extracts the required material from Diesel when you adopt this AIP very little has to change.
    If you buy a German sub with AIP then even if you only buy one then in every port you want that sub to operate you need to set up facilities for handling and supplying hydrogen right to the pier.

    With the Russian system the diesel handling and storage is already present.

    The other point is that a diesel electric sub already has onboard storage for large amounts of diesel fuel so apart from some pipes carrying diesel from the fuel tanks to the new AIP section and electrical cables that deliver the current generated to the batteries or direct to the propulsion motor there is little else that needs to be done to an old ship being upgraded with this new AIP.

    To install the German system you need hydrogen storage tanks as well as the AIP section.

    Obviously it isn't perfect... there are plenty of questions to be answered... AFAIK the Russian system doesn't extract hydrogen from the diesel, it actually extracts methonol or some such alcohol based fuel that is used in their fuel cell to generate electricity, so what remains of the diesel and what use is it?

    Can it still be used in the diesel engine or must it be discarded.

    Could they use different diesel with a very high methanol content and then process the diesel once underway to separate out the material they need leaving diesel they can still use as diesel?

    I don't know.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts: 2113
    Points: 3063
    Join date: 2009-07-10
    Location: Perm, Russian Federation

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:54 am

    There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 3963
    Points: 4309
    Join date: 2010-05-08
    Age: 38
    Location: India

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:50 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.

    The AIP is being bench tested for the past 2 years and they were suppose to be demonstrated to India.

    The additional Scorpenes is to tie over the short fall in submarine , cant wait for the new line to over the shortfall too soon as the new 2nd line of submarine for which Amur is a contender will only come like 5 years from now.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts: 2113
    Points: 3063
    Join date: 2009-07-10
    Location: Perm, Russian Federation

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:24 am

    The RFP for 75I has yet to be issued. No bench test has been demonstrated to India.

    Mazagong docks says it is cheaper to build more French submarines and with the tight wads at FinMin, Marlin looks the winner.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 3963
    Points: 4309
    Join date: 2010-05-08
    Age: 38
    Location: India

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:56 am

    Vlad , the Indian Navy Plan is to build 24 Conventional submarine in a 30 year submarine development plan.

    The first was P-75 for which Scorpene design is selected , the plan was to build 6 of this class at Mazagoan , they screwd up badly and instead of delivery by 2012 , it has not shifted to late 2015.

    Since Indian submarine force is falling at a faster pace then they could be added , they are proposing to build 3 more over the 6 since its easier to use existing infrastructure and build the subs faster after 6 are already built.

    The other 6 will be of P-75I class for which RFI was issued and now RFP will be issued , the plan is to procure larger conventional submarine with AIP and even with VLS capability.

    The remaining 10-12 submarine was suppose to be of Indian design.

    It may sound stupid to build 2 conventional submarine of different design but Indian Navy has been operating submarine of 2 class like Kilo and T-209 currently.

    Its hard to say which submarine will win the P-75I deal but most certainly Amur is a top contender there , the other is German Type 212 and French modified Scorpene Design similar to S80 not the Marlin , the marlin was smaller then Scorpene

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 10183
    Points: 10747
    Join date: 2010-03-30
    Location: New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:38 pm

    There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested.

    That is right, they don't have anything ready for service right now, but as mentioned in the first article:

    As of now, the St Petersburg is equipped with a classic battery, but in future, it will be replaced by ion-lithium, when latter gets available. It is expected that the Amur-1650 with ion-lithium batteries can get a two fold increase in underwater time – from 9 days currently up to 16, which is comparable to the current levels of German U-boats with AIP.

    So with new Lithium Ion batteries they can match the underwater performance of the German subs that use AIPs. When the Russian AIP is ready that will extend its underwater performance even further.

    They have already invested money in the new Li Ion batteries and AIP... just because the diesel and electric motors on the first Lada class are not performing to spec, there is no reason to trash all that work and effort and go back to upgraded Kilos... and spend a huge amount of money to start everything again from scratch.
    The sensible thing to do is what they are doing... lay down some upgraded Kilo class vessels as a stopgap, and fix the problems with the failing systems on the Lada class sub being tested. Freeze the other two hulls till the solutions are found and then finish those two hulls to the new 677M standard with the problems solved. They seem pretty sure they will have the solution next year (2013) but in the mean time upgraded Kilos are being built so there is no need to panic.

    If the problems with the new propulsion are fundamental and can never be fixed then a simple scaled down propulsion from the Kilo class could be substituted in the worst case scenario... the Lada is still smaller and has just over half the crew of a Kilo, and has better electronics and sensors and weapons.

    ...even if it is a complete export failure then it will do the job, but I rather suspect smaller vessels with smaller crews and perhaps cheaper downgraded for export systems might appeal to many countries... or the expensive and capable electronics might be even more interesting.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts: 3963
    Points: 4309
    Join date: 2010-05-08
    Age: 38
    Location: India

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:16 pm

    New Submarines Improve Performance

    Russia’s Project 636 SSK, called Kilo in the West, set standards in the Cold War, but its designer—St. Petersburg-based CDB Rubin—is now playing catch-up after years of underinvestment. Rubin’s general director, Andrey Dyachkov, tells DTI that the company is completing bench-testing of a prototype AIP system.

    The system is a hydrogen fuel cell, as used by TKMS-HDW, but instead of operating on stored hydrogen, it relies on chemical re- formation of the sub’s diesel fuel, which eliminates special on-board tankage and hydrogen infrastructure on shore. According to Dyachkov, this technology has already been validated during AIP bench tests. “This allows us to use the standard diesel fuel and doesn’t require complex ground support” compared to the German variant, he explained.

    Rubin plans to install AIP in the Amur 1650, offered for the Indian navy’s tender for six conventional submarines. An export version of Russia’s Project 677 Lada class, Amur has a surface displacement of 1,765 metric tons, submerged speed of 19 kt. and a crew of 35. It is designed to strike both sea-based and fixed land-based targets. The 66-meter (217-ft.) boat carries six torpedo tubes and Klub-S (SS-N-27) missiles in 10 vertical launchers that can be fired in salvos. For the Indian tender it also will be equipped with Russo-Indian PJ-10 BrahMos supersonic missiles fired from the same launchers.

    The AIP can be installed in the Amur 1650 in a separate module along with the conventional diesel-electric propulsion system. Using the AIP, the sub’s endurance can increase by two or three more weeks from 45 days currently, based on a customer’s request. Continuous submerged time increases from the current nine days to 14-20 days.

    The first Project 677 boat, the St. Petersburg, is undergoing reliability testing with the Russian navy in the Baltic Sea. In 2012, it is expected to complete the testing of its sonar system, says Dyachkov. The Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg are constructing two more, the Kronstadt and Sevastopol, but so far there are no funds for completing these with AIP.

    Rubin plans to further increase Amur 1650 endurance by replacing lead-acid batteries with lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries. The designers do not report about their progress in this field, but say that lithium-ion batteries will be able to increase the sub’s submerged endurance and distance by 50% at low noise patrol speed and threefold at full speed. Unlike the AIP, which is only compatible with the Amur, the new batteries can also be offered for Rubin’s Project 636 Kilo boats.

      Current date/time is Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:29 am