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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:23 am

    Rutherford split the atom in about 1917 or so and was largely responsible for exploring and identifying the parts of an atom.

    Rather important New Zealander he is... much like Sir Edmund Hillary.

    They are and have worked on a wide range of nuclear power generation systems from rather small up to rather large... large to power ships or major land based power generation, but also small for use in satellites and space stations and colonies on other planets where solar is not so reliable...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:01 pm

    ..the Russian naval department today announced that the work on the submarines of the project 677 will be continued in greater volume than previously planned.
    That is, much more submarines will be built than planned.
    Project 677 submarines are low-profile hybrid submarines capable of carrying up to 18 Caliber missiles and anti-submarine torpedoes.
    Such submarines are now considered the quietest in the world, and an improved hull cover makes their detection using radar almost impossible.
    The main driving moment of the submarine is created by a quiet permanent-magnet motor.
    At the moment there is one boat in service with the Russian Navy, and in 2019 two more will come to the fleet.
    All new submarines of this type will be sent to the Pacific Fleet, precisely because first of all they are intended for combat operations in the conditions of the World Ocean.
    That is, to use American terminology, these are the ships of "blue water". The main objective of the project 677 submarines is to fight the enemy’s surface and submarine fleet and to defend the deployment of nuclear submarine cruisers
    .
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ab1fe8de44a9438327dd11c/rossiia-sozdala-gibridnye-submariny-dlia-sinei-vody-5c0fb20346ef5c00aaa81caa?from=feed
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 15 Scale_1200

    The submarine is [quieter than Kilos and] capable of diving to a depth of up to 350 meters. The maximum speed of its underwater course is more than 20 knots, .. The submarine will be able to stay under water for up to two weeks without surfacing to charge the batteries.
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201812180300-mtej.htm

    Such a diving depth capability is not needed in shallow waters!
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:40 pm


    Wrong image, Ladas don't have VLS tubes

    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:48 pm

    Don't be so picky, western undercovers just switched sides welcome

    Perhaps mods can move the discussion to the topic where we can continue with criticising Virginias  Laughing

    Anyway according to Shishkin only one is coming next year: https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:44 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Wrong image, Ladas don't have VLS tubes
    Those 18 Caliber missiles will be launched from torpedo tubes then? Or maybe they plan to insert a missile compartment on the new subs?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:23 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Wrong image, Ladas don't have VLS tubes

    That's an amour class based on lada with VLS. This design could be the basis for future ssk design.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:31 pm

    Yes, like how the new Kilos have 'up to 18 Kalibr' too.

    Ladas to Pacific fits with recent statement of Kilos to North but I think I'll believe it when boats start getting delivered.
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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:57 am

    hoom wrote:Yes, like how the new Kilos have 'up to 18 Kalibr' too.

    Ladas to Pacific fits with recent statement of Kilos to North but I think I'll believe it when boats start getting delivered.


    It`s a pity that people on this Forum are usually "out of the matter". Pr.677 SSKs don`t carry 18 kalibrs! 18 is a total number of weapons (torpedoes/missiles) Export version of Lada - Amur 1850, 1650, 950 (in reference to displacement) all have VLS behind the sail/fin. Dived endurance on batteries is approx 650M @ 3 knots - 220 hours approx - not more than 9 days. AIP version, if and when it emerges, will have greater endurance dived.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:59 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Don't be so picky, western undercovers just switched sides welcome

    Perhaps mods can move the discussion to the topic where we can continue with criticising Virginias  Laughing

    Anyway according to Shishkin only one is coming next year: https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/

    I really don`t pick what has Lada to do comparing to Virginia SSNs?

    One is coming next year!?. Do you remember - i do - that first news about projecting type 212 U-boot i have heard more than quarter of a century aqo!, And the first was completeed in 2000s.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:05 pm

    Pr.677 SSKs don`t carry 18 kalibrs! 18 is a total number of weapons (torpedoes/missiles)
    'Up to' means exactly that, max 18 weapons but any mix from all torpedos to all Kalibr.

    The last 2 Kilos off Syria have demonstrated firing nearly a full load of Kalibr out of their 18 total weapons (vs previous estimates of max 4 or 6) so its logical that the same capability will be on the Ladas.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:00 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Pr.677 SSKs don`t carry 18 kalibrs! 18 is a total number of weapons (torpedoes/missiles)
    'Up to' means exactly that, max 18 weapons but any mix from all torpedos to all Kalibr.

    The last 2 Kilos off Syria have demonstrated firing nearly a full load of Kalibr out of their 18 total weapons (vs previous estimates of max 4 or 6) so its logical that the same capability will be on the Ladas.

    Kilos off Syrian coast, as all pr.877/636 SSKs have 6 TTs. So, it is perfectly viable to have full salvo of 6 kalibr missiles. Reload takes some time and though, there is no effect of surprise and effect on target is smaller! Naval staff confirms no more than 12 kalibrs from two boats for one mission. Confirmed. Source... russian naval officers from Tartus.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:04 am

    They could certainly fit vertical launch tubes to the Ladas if they wanted to... lets wait and see which ones they decide to go with because there are a wide range of options for the export model and being the main customer I am sure the Russian Navy can get any features they ask for as long as they are prepared to pay for them of course.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:29 am


    A new brigade of Lada submarines (Project 677) will be deployed as part of the Pacific Fleet

    https://topwar.ru/151076-mo-rf-razvernet-na-kamchatke-novuju-brigadu-podlodok.html



    The lead submarine of the project 677 Lada St. Petersburg showed on tests that it's "much more difficult" to detect than submarines of project 636 Kilo

    https://ria.ru/20181217/1548103140.html
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:15 pm

    Tests of the second submarine of Project 677 "Kronstadt" will begin in 2019

    Diesel-electric submarine was launched on September 20, 2018


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6149427
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    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:09 pm

    AIP work is on hold (already 1-1.5yrs!) due to lack of funds https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B020/
    Thats pretty disappointing & why I get troubled by reports of all sorts of exotic stuff like new VTOL fighters, when programs like this have no $$$.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:34 am

    hoom wrote:AIP work is on hold (already 1-1.5yrs!) due to lack of funds https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B020/
    Thats pretty disappointing & why I get troubled by reports of all sorts of exotic stuff like new VTOL fighters, when programs like this have no $$$.

    Representatives of the enterprises added that the beginning of anaerobic plant tests on a specific submarine of the 677 project, "Lada", will begin, at best, at the last stage of the state armaments program, calculated until 2027...

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3562252.html
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:30 am


    Question is how good is standard Lada sub?

    They said that it's far superior on all parameters to Kilo, especially acoustics wise and Kilo is already considered excellent.

    If that's the case then moving on with​ diesel Lada subs should not be an issue, build up the fleet now and switch to fancy stuff later.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:47 am

    When you can build nuclear powered subs an AIP isn´t that important. And there is the new mini NPP developed for Poseidon. If this thing can propel a 20m long "torpedo" to 100kn and give it a range of 20.000km, three or four of them could power a sub the size of a Kilo or Lada fora long time.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:23 pm

    Poseidon doesn't have to worry about trying not to liquidate its crew though...
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:42 pm

    Why spend millions on the devdelopment of fuel cells for an AIP if you already produce tue ultimate AIP: nuclear reactors.

    The NPP of Poseidon is sealed and won´t spread radiation. Or do you think the sailors on board the subs that will carry Poseidon are immune?
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    Post  kvs on Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:06 pm

    Hole wrote:When you can build nuclear powered subs an AIP isn´t that important. And there is the new mini NPP developed for Poseidon. If this thing can propel a 20m long "torpedo" to 100kn and give it a range of 20.000km, three or four of them could power a sub the size of a Kilo or Lada fora long time.

    Nobody has presented a case for AIP based on operation performance of diesel-electric submarines. Small submarines were never designed to be in the water for
    years without surfacing. So they were never used in such roles. Now we have this AIP gimmick and all of the sudden no diesel-electric has any use without it.
    Utter BS. But this gimmick-think is exactly how western marketing works. Consumer saps think that they can't live without some new feature that has less than
    marginal impact on the utility of a product. And western diesel-electric sub makers can then sell their boats for $2 billion each. Would anyone please demonstrate
    how AIP justifies a 6-fold price markup compared to a project 636.3 submarine?

    Arming submarines with more effective weapons is not a gimmick.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:38 pm

    Exactly. If you are able to build nuclear subs there is no need for an AIP just to be able to travel for four weeks under water without surfacing. A longer duration with such small boats would be difficult = diesel subs are proven and more then good enough for patrols or even shooting cruise missiles at some terrorists.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:52 pm

    Hole wrote:Exactly. If you are able to build nuclear subs there is no need for an AIP just to be able to travel for four weeks under water without surfacing. A longer duration with such small boats would be difficult = diesel subs are proven and more then good enough for patrols or even shooting cruise missiles at some terrorists.

    AIP is quieter than electric batteries and Reactors.

    Nuclear ships are also very expensive to maintain, why would you equip a submarine that is meant to serve has a brown water sub with overly expensive propulsion and powerplant it doesn't need?.

    Lada's aren't going to go deep in the Atlantic for months on end they do not need such a thing
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:15 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    AIP is quieter than electric batteries and Reactors.

    A kilo without aip will be just as silent as one with. Diesel subs use their diesel engines to recharge their batteries. Then run on batteries.

    AIP help improving the quantity of power stored or help produce electricity under the water like for exemple store oxygen so that the engines can work without the need to surface.

    In terms of accoustic the engine will still need to be turn on and that produce huge noise. Diesel subs are more stealthy than nuk only when running on batteries.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:22 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    AIP is quieter than electric batteries and Reactors.

    A kilo without aip will be just as silent as one with. Diesel subs use their diesel engines to recharge their batteries. Then run on batteries.

    AIP help improving the quantity of power stored or help produce electricity under the water like for exemple store oxygen so that the engines can work without the need to surface.

    In terms of accoustic the engine will still need to be turn on and that produce huge noise. Diesel subs are more stealthy than nuk only when running on batteries.

    No they are quieter, propulsion wise AIP is quieter.

    A kilo without AIP will be noisier than one without AIP.

    You added side information I never talked about.

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