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    Il-112V light military transport

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:51 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:It looks terrific!

    Form over function currently.

    What do you mean?

    I believe that the size and appearance of the il112v have been so chosen to allow the transport of the loads and vehicles that the Russian military needs, and not for standard pallets...

    I am sure that the characteristics will improve considerably in the next couple of years.

    Anyway, after the development of this aircraft will be complete, it is possible that (if they feel the need) they will start working on a enlonged version of it with more powerful engines (e.g the PDV4000 turboprop, currently in development, for which there should be a version up to 5000 hp).

    And about the comparison with the c295... the C295 is optimised to carry standard containers and pallets, and has smaller cargo height limitations.

    Anyway the lenght of the cargo area in the C27J and il112v is almost the same (but the C27J is of course wider). The cargo hold (for a similar overall lenght of about 24m) is longer in the c295 just because they decided to seriously limit its height.




    As an example I saw some website were they claimed it (the C295) was also better and more useful than the C27J,  as it could carry more standard pallets...

    https://flaps-aviacion-aviation-luftfahrt.blogspot.com/2012/01/comparing-airbus-c295-vs-alenania-c-27j.html?m=1

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 Airbus-military-product-update-2012-9-728

    Note the C27J has a cargo compartment with: width 3.33 m X height 2.25 m

    While the c295 should have  Cabin Height 1.90 m  
      Cabin Width 2.70 m  

    And last, according to wikipedia the il112v has a amp opening, H × W: 2.42 × 2.45 m

    Here a few nice images on the il-112v with emphasis on the cargo area(source https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/01/20/il-112v-light-military-transport-aircraft-russia/

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 Sfwtk

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 4hdzr

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 06-02

    Here some less biased considerations and comparisons between C27J and C-295

    https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/161909/Policy_Analysis100_future_battlefield_airlifter.pdf


    Cargo
    It’s important to understand what an airlifter might be called upon to move. The ADF moves its stores on standard 463L pallets which are 2.24 m by 2.74 m in plan
    view and typically 1.75 to 2.05 m high, with the C-17 able to transport pallets up  to 3.04 m high and the C-130 up to 2.44 m high, subject to being within applicable
    weight limitations. Ideally, pallets should be able to be transferred from C-17 to C-130J to BFA without having to break them down and repack the contents, a task that consumes time and manpower. For moving personnel, there are different  seating configurations that can be employed, and assumptions have to be made
    about the total all-up weight of troops and their personal equipment.
    In terms of floor area, the C-27J can accommodate three 463L pallets, with room for an additional ‘half pallet’. The total cargo capacity in volume is around 44 m3, with a
    maximum ceiling height of 2.6 m and a height of 2.44 m at the wing spar, offering a maximum pallet height of 2.11 m. The C-295 is longer but narrower and the cargo  space has a lower maximum ceiling height of 1.9 m and a usable height of 1.5 m,  although the greater floor area can accommodate the footprint of up to five pallets.
    According to Airbus, the C-295 has a cargo volume of just under 40 m3, excluding the ramp area.
    Due to clearance requirements, neither aircraft can accommodate the maximum  pallet height of 2.44 m that a C-130 can carry.5
    As such, pallets intended for transfer  to the BFA from the other airlifters will have to either be packed to a lower total
    height (and hence volume) or broken down and repacked in theatre. However, there
    s an additional constraint for the C-295 in terms of clearance around the pallets—the standard pallet footprint is a snug fit, leaving little room for personnel to move
    around. The C-27J can accommodate pallets of up to 2.1 m in height and its width should accommodate a standard pallet with the necessary clearance.
    A more serious limitation due to the C-295’s lower cabin height is the size of objects that can be accommodated. This is probably most significant in the case of vehicles. The ADF’s new cross-country vehicle, the Mercedes-Benz G-Wagon will be fielded in a number of variants and configurations, but all will be around 2.0 m or more in height and so won’t fit in the C-295’s cargo space. Some variants won’t fit into the C-27J either, but the basic 4 x 4 and 6 x 6 mobility variants will. Others, such as the reconnaissance and surveillance or ambulance models would require some disassembly and/or a multi-role aircraft lift. (Or could be air dropped from a C-130 if necessary.) Similarly, there are a number of vehicles under consideration
    for the future ‘protected mobility vehicle - light’ (the Army’s proposed light armoured vehicle for operations in areas with a threat from mines, small arms fire or improvised explosive devices), most of which are too tall for the C-295 cargo space

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    Post  LMFS Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:12 pm

    The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation will receive two light transport aircraft Il-112V in 2021

    08/25/2020 16:32:29
    Kubinka (Moscow region). 25-th of August. INTERFAX - The United Aircraft Corporation will transfer two Il-112V light transport aircraft to the Russian military in 2021, the head of the UAC Yuri Slyusar told reporters.
    "Separately, we would like to note the conclusion of a contract for two Il-112. The so-called pilot batch," Slyusar said.
    He stressed that measures were taken on these aircraft to reduce the mass, so they will fully comply with the terms of reference of the Ministry of Defense.
    "We are connecting these two aircraft with delivery in 2021 to tests for the early completion of R&D (development work - IF)," said the head of the UAC.
    As reported, the first flight of the Il-112V prototype took place on March 30, 2019, but at that time the plane did not meet the requirements of the Russian Ministry of Defense in terms of carrying capacity, therefore it required revision.
    Il-112V is the first military transport aircraft developed in Russia "from scratch" in the post-Soviet period. It should replace the aging An-24 and An-26 fleet.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=536912&lang=RU

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    Post  Hole Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:06 pm

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 Il-11210
    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 Il-11211

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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:48 am

    Nice. Should be an excellent replacement for the An-24 and An-26...

    I believe that the size and appearance of the il112v have been so chosen to allow the transport of the loads and vehicles that the Russian military needs, and not for standard pallets...

    What do you mean by standard pallets?

    HATO standard or Russian standard or international standard?

    I would suspect they designed their plane to carry Russian and probably International standard loads... do you think the market within HATO for a new Russian transport plane warrants consideration for carrying HATO standard stuff?

    Aircraft in this weight class would not be able to carry their new armoured vehicles like Kurganets or Armata or Boomerang, though the Tigr and other light vehicles could be carried I would guess.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Nice. Should be an excellent replacement for the An-24 and An-26...

    I believe that the size and appearance of the il112v have been so chosen to allow the transport of the loads and vehicles that the Russian military needs, and not for standard pallets...

    What do you mean by standard pallets?

    HATO standard or Russian standard or international standard?

    I would suspect they designed their plane to carry Russian and probably International standard loads... do you think the market within HATO for a new Russian transport plane warrants consideration for carrying HATO standard stuff?

    Aircraft in this weight class would not be able to carry their new armoured vehicles like Kurganets or Armata or Boomerang, though the Tigr and other light vehicles could be carried I would guess.

    From what i was able to find in internet the most used pallet size in North america  is 40.00 × 48.00 in (1016 × 1219 mm).
    In Europe and in Asia (and I believe probably also in Russia) the most used is 1000x 1200 mm (39.37 × 47.24 in) (called at least in the EU as standard pallet), quite similar in size to the 40 x 48 in.

    Off topic start
    There are also other sizes used in other countries, such as the Australian 1165 × 1165 mm (45.9 × 45.9 in) (is it used also in NZ, Garry?),

    The  42.00 × 42.00 in (1067 × 1067mm)

    And the  1100 × 1100 mm (43.30 × 43.30 in).

    In Europe there is also a smaller pallet 800x1200 mm, used because it fits many doorways.

    Off topic ends

    Anyway,  what I meant is that apparently the main concern for the C295 is to transport pallets, and the cargo shape and size has been optimised for that, while probably the russian military is more interested in vehicles and other special equipment.

    As an example the C295 has a high limit of 1.9 m, while the il112v can transport objects up to 2.4 m. Ideally it could mean also some infantry mobility vehicles, like the Gaz Tigr (just short of 2.4 m height), but unfortunately the Tigr is about 7 tons heavy (there are lighter vehicles, anyway) ... maybe in an upgraded version of the il-112v with increased payload....
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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:00 pm

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 U-oua-10
    A pic with pallets.
    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 000259
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    Post  AMCXXL Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:Nice. Should be an excellent replacement for the An-24 and An-26...

    .

    The Il-112V can hardly replace the An-24 for two simple reasons

    The Russian Air Force does not operate any An-24
    Also the An-24 is a passenger plane, not a military freighter

    The Il-112V will replace all the light military cargo aircraft in Russian Armed Forces, this is the An-26 and the An-72

    The Russian Armed Forces have in service about 150 An-26 and about 35 An-72 and even so they are less than necessary since all the units are not complete, especially in the Navy.

    The defense ministry should buy about 200 Il-112V
    In addition, the other agencies such as the Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Emergencies or the Border Guard will also need Il-112, with which the number of requests from the Russian government should be more than 250 Il-112

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    Post  AMCXXL Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:54 pm

    LMFS wrote:The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation will receive two light transport aircraft Il-112V in 2021

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=536912&lang=RU

    United Aircraft Corporation will transfer two Il-112V light transport aircraft to the Russian military in 2021, the head of the UAC, Yuri Slyusar, told reporters.
    "Separately, we would like to note the conclusion of a contract for two Il-112. The so-called installation party party ".


    This probably refers to the transfer of the two prototypes for state tests: the Ministry of Defense is one thing and the Air Force another different, although it is subordinate to that.

    The two Il-112Vs ordered in August as an installation batch for the air force will not arrive until 2022 or 2023 and chain manufacturing will follow.

    In fact, the production of Il-276 to replace the An-12 is much necesary, that it is reaching the end of its useful life, even taking into account the use of reserve aircraft and the cannibalization of retired aircraft


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:57 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:

    The defense ministry should buy about 200 Il-112V
    In addition, the other agencies such as the Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Emergencies or the Border Guard will also need Il-112, with which the number of requests from the Russian government should be more than 250 Il-112
    Add in some export sales and that is a big, multi year, production line. For engines as well.
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    Post  AMCXXL Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:05 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    AMCXXL wrote:

    The defense ministry should buy about 200 Il-112V
    In addition, the other agencies such as the Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Emergencies or the Border Guard will also need Il-112, with which the number of requests from the Russian government should be more than 250 Il-112
    Add in some export sales and that is a big, multi year, production line. For engines as well.

    And if there is a civil freighter version, the sales will be even higher.
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    Post  william.boutros Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:05 pm

    LMFS wrote:The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation will receive two light transport aircraft Il-112V in 2021

    08/25/2020 16:32:29
    Kubinka (Moscow region). 25-th of August. INTERFAX - The United Aircraft Corporation will transfer two Il-112V light transport aircraft to the Russian military in 2021, the head of the UAC Yuri Slyusar told reporters.
    "Separately, we would like to note the conclusion of a contract for two Il-112. The so-called pilot batch," Slyusar said.
    He stressed that measures were taken on these aircraft to reduce the mass, so they will fully comply with the terms of reference of the Ministry of Defense.
    "We are connecting these two aircraft with delivery in 2021 to tests for the early completion of R&D (development work - IF)," said the head of the UAC.
    As reported, the first flight of the Il-112V prototype took place on March 30, 2019, but at that time the plane did not meet the requirements of the Russian Ministry of Defense in terms of carrying capacity, therefore it required revision.
    Il-112V is the first military transport aircraft developed in Russia "from scratch" in the post-Soviet period. It should replace the aging An-24 and An-26 fleet.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=536912&lang=RU

    800 KG from which weight? This plane was 2.5 tons overweight according to its designer.
    https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/15/2019/7/29/245/

    Link mentioning 800 KG weight reduction.
    https://rs.rbth.com/science/90943-il-112v-avion-rusija
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    Post  LMFS Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:45 am

    All explained here:

    https://aviation21.ru/d-manturov-rekonstrukciya-aerodroma-pridacha-dast-vozmozhnost-vozobnovit-ispytatelnye-polyoty-il-112v/
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    Post  william.boutros Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 am

    LMFS wrote:All explained here:

    https://aviation21.ru/d-manturov-rekonstrukciya-aerodroma-pridacha-dast-vozmozhnost-vozobnovit-ispytatelnye-polyoty-il-112v/

    As is understood by this article only 800 kGs have been removed from the weight. It means this aircraft has a long way to go.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:14 am

    Off topic start
    There are also other sizes used in other countries, such as the Australian 1165 × 1165 mm (45.9 × 45.9 in) (is it used also in NZ, Garry?),

    Not off topic at all.

    This is a transport plane, and it will be designed to carry the pallets the Russian military uses... which is most likely properly metric...ie the 1 x 1.2m you mention above...

    Anyway,  what I meant is that apparently the main concern for the C295 is to transport pallets, and the cargo shape and size has been optimised for that, while probably the russian military is more interested in vehicles and other special equipment.

    I would think they would be able to manage to get a design that allows both shifting the stuff they want but also to accommodate their own standard loads as well.

    Foreign pallets not fitting would not be a huge concern really...

    but unfortunately the Tigr is about 7 tons heavy (there are lighter vehicles, anyway) ... maybe in an upgraded version of the il-112v with increased payload....

    They have those new lightweight 4 wheel vehicles designed to operate from Hips... I would suspect they could probably carry two of those without problems...

    The Il-112V can hardly replace the An-24 for two simple reasons

    The Russian Air Force does not operate any An-24
    Also the An-24 is a passenger plane, not a military freighter

    But the An-24 is in use in at least four Russian airlines, so if they adopt an Il-112 based passenger version of the Il-112v you could say that in a way it was a replacement... because it is intended to replace the An-26 and the An-26 is very similar to the Il-112V.... so similar in fact that the Il-112V being used to replace the An-26 could in fact be adapted to also replace the An-24 also in use by Russian organisations including the Navy... perhaps and likely a few other government departments.

    I mean the whole purpose of the programme was to replace the old light Antonovs in Russian service and Russian use... no point in making a plane only for the Russian AF to only replace the An-26.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:47 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Off topic start
    There are also other sizes used in other countries, such as the Australian 1165 × 1165 mm (45.9 × 45.9 in) (is it used also in NZ, Garry?),

    Not off topic at all.

    This is a transport plane, and it will be designed to carry the pallets the Russian military uses... which is most likely properly metric...ie the 1 x 1.2m you mention above...

    Anyway,  what I meant is that apparently the main concern for the C295 is to transport pallets, and the cargo shape and size has been optimised for that, while probably the russian military is more interested in vehicles and other special equipment.

    I would think they would be able to manage to get a design that allows both shifting the stuff they want but also to accommodate their own standard loads as well.

    Foreign pallets not fitting would not be a huge concern really...

    but unfortunately the Tigr is about 7 tons heavy (there are lighter vehicles, anyway) ... maybe in an upgraded version of the il-112v with increased payload....

    They have those new lightweight 4 wheel vehicles designed to operate from Hips... I would suspect they could probably carry two of those without problems...

    The Il-112V can hardly replace the An-24 for two simple reasons

    The Russian Air Force does not operate any An-24
    Also the An-24 is a passenger plane, not a military freighter

    But the An-24 is in use in at least four Russian airlines, so if they adopt an Il-112 based passenger version of the Il-112v you could say that in a way it was a replacement... because it is intended to replace the An-26 and the An-26 is very similar to the Il-112V.... so similar in fact that the Il-112V being used to replace the An-26 could in fact be adapted to also replace the An-24 also in use by Russian organisations including the Navy... perhaps and likely a few other government departments.

    I mean the whole purpose of the programme was to replace the old light Antonovs in Russian service and Russian use... no point in making a plane only for the Russian AF to only replace the An-26.
    Hi Garry,
    There is no need for a passenger version of the il-112v.

    The 50 passengers An24 will be replaced by the new high wing passenger turboprop based on the Let L-610 (30 to 40 passengers) and by the larger (64 or 68 passengers) low wing turboprop il-114-300  (which engines are a civilian version of the Klimov TV7-117 that powers the Il-112v).

    The An-24, An-26 and An-32 will be replaced by these aircrafts (il112v, il114-300 and the new aircraft based on the Let L-610) in their different roles (passenger aircraft, civilian cargo, military cargo and multi purpose aircraft).

    I would have liked if Russia could buy or recover the name of Antonov and move the headquarters to some places like Samara or Saratov, and maybe starting by naming the An-2 replacement and the ex czech planes (Let L-410 and Let L-610) with an An name.
    Afterall their development was fully paid by soviet union...

    P.S.
    As I wrote in the post above
    The standard pallets in US and in Russia/Europe are almost the same size (less than 2 cm difference....just basically rounded to the next round number for mm or inches...)

    North America: 40.00 × 48.00 in (1016 × 1219 mm).
    Europe and Asia 1000 x 1200 mm (39.37 × 47.24 in)
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:57 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    I would have liked if Russia could buy or recover the name of Antonov and move the headquarters to some places like Samara or Saratov, and maybe starting by naming the An-2 replacement and the ex czech planes (Let L-410 and Let L-610) with an An name.
    Afterall their development was fully paid by soviet union...

    It would be a bit cheeky and generate some interesting free publicity but there is no reason why the Russians could not start a new company with An as the first two letters of its name and begin say at An-100 onwards.

    However, they should be much more interested in enhancing the Ilyushin brand, turning it into the Russian Boeing or Airbus, by concentrating all their transport aircraft under one marketing name, with co-ordinated product names, even if they are made in different companies factories. Which is what they did in the US, McDonnell Douglas just vanishing as a marketing name. They have to start thinking big, but instead the Russians seem to be going the way of car marketing with fragmented multiple brands, driven perhaps by vested interests.

    Russia could emulate the UK where British Aerospace was created by ruthlessly eliminating its originating, and famous, companies names partly due to political infighting necessitating the creation of a neutral new name. Perhaps that could be a way forward with Russian Air Transport as a suggestion.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:27 am

    There is no need for a passenger version of the il-112v.

    Yeah, what actually does the specific replacement is not as important as the fact that these planes are suitably replaced in the Russian military and in the Russian civilian market... and once that is sorted out they can look to expand and export to former customers who might want to make the same or similar replacements.

    I would have liked if Russia could buy or recover the name of Antonov and move the headquarters to some places like Samara or Saratov, and maybe starting by naming the An-2 replacement and the ex czech planes (Let L-410 and Let L-610) with an An name.
    Afterall their development was fully paid by soviet union...

    I thought that too for a while, but suspect they would rather rent than sell and live off the proceeds... and that is assuming they even wanted to sell in the first place, which I rather doubt.

    All the BS they have been causing since 1991, I think the best solution is let it go and let Tupolev and Ilyusion step up and take advantage of this situation... both companies are more than capable of doing an excellent job and it is a bit wasteful having so many aviation design bureaus all building planes...

    The aircraft design name of Antonov is associated with the Ukraine and their choices and actions have meant that is going to wither away and die now too... I hope they are happy.

    As for saving or reviving it... no. That money and energy would be better used funding upgrades and improvements in Russian companies making Russian planes and Russian engines.

    The standard pallets in US and in Russia/Europe are almost the same size (less than 2 cm difference....just basically rounded to the next round number for mm or inches...)

    The question is, are they packed tight, or is there an empty space around the pallets when loaded so that it could use any or all.

    The other question is... is that actual size or nominal size... for instance Russian small arms are called 7.62 and are often called .308 calibre, but the actual bullet diameter is .311. That means the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 7.62x38R Nagant revolver cartridge, the 7.62 x 39 mm AK round, and the 7.62 x 54Rmm 3 line rifle are all the same barrel diameter... 0.3 of an inch or 3 lini groove to groove, but .311 land to land.

    On paper western 308 calibre bullets could be loaded but accuracy would be affected...

    Assuming the different sized pallets could still be tied down properly it should be fine though I would guess.

    They have to start thinking big, but instead the Russians seem to be going the way of car marketing with fragmented multiple brands, driven perhaps by vested interests.

    I disagree, Tupolev and Ilyusion already are known world wide brand names, with good reputations... merging them and creating a new unknown brand is not a good idea... that would be what you did if you wanted to completely change your markets where the old brands didn't have a good name or had negative connotations... like trying to sell a Lada brand car in the west... ridiculed by many they do have loyal customers who would be happy to buy, if it was cheap and simple and easy to fix.

    Changing brand names is an act of desperation.

    Russia could emulate the UK where British Aerospace was created by ruthlessly eliminating its originating, and famous, companies names partly due to political infighting necessitating the creation of a neutral new name. Perhaps that could be a way forward with Russian Air Transport as a suggestion.

    For what purpose. Russian design bureaus operate within one organisation now and there is no infighting to deal with... any design bureau section can work in any area they please it seems and all seem to be expanding their product lines and ranges to fill gaps.
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    Post  Hole Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:50 pm

    Interior of the Il-112V

    Il-112V light military transport  - Page 13 Il-11212

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    Post  dino00 Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:51 pm

    The source reported the postponement of the second flight of the Il-112V to February

    Dec 8 - RIA Novosti. The second flight of the new Il-112V military transport aircraft, almost two years after the first lift into the air, was again postponed and is now scheduled for February 2021, a source in the aircraft industry told RIA Novosti.

    "The second flight of the Il-112 has been postponed again and will not take place until the end of this year. The most optimistic terms for the continuation of flight tests are February 2021," the agency's interlocutor said, answering the relevant question.

    According to him, the postponement of the resumption of flight tests of the Il-112V is partly due to the fact that "the main forces of PJSC Ilyushin have been thrown on the topic of the Il- 114-300."

    The interlocutor clarified that for the second flight, the main systems were improved and the weight of the aircraft was reduced by almost two tons. "Previously, it was planned to complete work on lightening the structure of the aircraft and lift it into the air for the second time by the end of 2019, then everything shifted to the beginning of this year, then to April, then to the summer and at the end of this year," the source said.


    https://ria.ru/20201208/ispytaniya-1588139761.html

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:11 pm

    dino00 wrote:The source reported the postponement of the second flight of the Il-112V to February

    Dec 8 - RIA Novosti. The second flight of the new Il-112V military transport aircraft, almost two years after the first lift into the air, was again postponed and is now scheduled for February 2021, a source in the aircraft industry told RIA Novosti.

    "The second flight of the Il-112 has been postponed again and will not take place until the end of this year. The most optimistic terms for the continuation of flight tests are February 2021," the agency's interlocutor said, answering the relevant question.

    According to him, the postponement of the resumption of flight tests of the Il-112V is partly due to the fact that "the main forces of PJSC Ilyushin have been thrown on the topic of the Il- 114-300."

    The interlocutor clarified that for the second flight, the main systems were improved and the weight of the aircraft was reduced by almost two tons. "Previously, it was planned to complete work on lightening the structure of the aircraft and lift it into the air for the second time by the end of 2019, then everything shifted to the beginning of this year, then to April, then to the summer and at the end of this year," the source said.


    https://ria.ru/20201208/ispytaniya-1588139761.html
    In previous article I read about 800kg reduction. If they actually managed to reduce of 2 tons then the aircraft is finally within specs. Someone was alleging that the first flight prototype was also too tail heavy, and needed several hundreds kg of ballast in the front. I do not know if it was true, but if it was, I hope that this problem has been solved too.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:50 am

    They would only realise the prototype was tail heavy with testing, so an emergency solution is to use ballast to allow conventional flight so other tests could be performed but the use of ballast is a temporary thing to allow testing of other things.

    A redesign would be needed so the design was balanced and did not need ballast or dead weight to restore performance.

    Once identified it should not be that hard to fix it, which means ballast can be removed too.
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    Post  lancelot Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:57 am

    GarryB wrote:They would only realise the prototype was tail heavy with testing, so an emergency solution is to use ballast to allow conventional flight so other tests could be performed but the use of ballast is a temporary thing to allow testing of other things.

    A redesign would be needed so the design was balanced and did not need ballast or dead weight to restore performance.

    Once identified it should not be that hard to fix it, which means ballast can be removed too.

    They should have realized that sooner. There is software to simulate mass distribution in vehicles including aircraft.
    Ansys is one. There is more to software than CAD.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:04 am

    lancelot wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They would only realise the prototype was tail heavy with testing, so an emergency solution is to use ballast to allow conventional flight so other tests could be performed but the use of ballast is a temporary thing to allow testing of other things.

    A redesign would be needed so the design was balanced and did not need ballast or dead weight to restore performance.

    Once identified it should not be that hard to fix it, which means ballast can be removed too.

    They should have realized that sooner. There is software to simulate mass distribution in vehicles including aircraft.
    Ansys is one. There is more to software than CAD.
    Let's say that there was a bit of fuck-up and the problems with weight were not seen till late. Normally you don't need to arrive until prototype build to see this kind of problems.

    Maybe they discovered it but late due to the personnel (many people leaving to go to irkutsk because lack of prospects and low pay) and project (the il112v was started and stopped many times because of the pro Ukrainian meddling in the Russian aviation decision making in the early 2000) problems.

    So probably in the freezing and unfreezing of the project many important data, lessons learned and reasons for the design choices were lost.

    This might have caused the aircraft to be overweight and with a wrong weight distribution.

    They decided to go on with it anyway, finishing the prototype and testing it. It was an additional cost, but maybe it allowed them to gather important data on the flight characteristics of the "loaded" airplane and understand better how to modify and improve the design.

    It is also possible that the delays are due to much more substantial changes than just changing some components to more light weight material and partial redesign of some structure, and they went back to the drawing board starting from the basic design of the aircraft. All the mistakes done will then be just very expensive (but also very useful) lessons learned that will allow the final iteration of the il112v to be a successful aircraft.


    Maybe recently they were also able to get additional personnel ex Antonov, with more recent experience on those kind of aircrafts.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:13 pm

    This plane may have bright future: 
    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russia-to-produce-up-to-12-new-il-112v-light-turboprop-transports-annually/
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:55 am

    They should have realized that sooner. There is software to simulate mass distribution in vehicles including aircraft.
    Ansys is one. There is more to software than CAD.

    They should be perfect and never make mistakes, I agree, but the purpose of testing is to find out if designs actually meet the needs of the customer... the function of testing is a check of a design... and there is only a failure if testing results are ignored and the thing goes into serial production with flaws and vices... like not being able to launch your primary weapon like the Ford class carriers or be able to use your main gun like the Zumwalts, or just be bloody useless like their LCS ships.

    Testing revealed a flaw which was patched in the short term with ballast to allow flight testing to be one while the fundamental flaw could be fixed.

    That is perfectly normal, and certainly no reason to get your panties in a bunch like some tend to want to do.

    The cost is a delay and a redesign to fix the problem and perhaps make other changes they didn't get time to do last time in the rush to test the thing.

    Maybe recently they were also able to get additional personnel ex Antonov, with more recent experience on those kind of aircrafts.

    Or maybe the first test plane was sabotaged by ex Antonov personnel, and now it has been fixed by Ilyusion engineers who also know what they are doing but don't have a chip on their shoulder... Razz

    This plane may have bright future:

    Of course it does... there are plenty of countries around the world that still use the old Antonovs that will be looking for an affordable aircraft to upgrade their fleets and this should do a good job...

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