Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Isos Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:10 am

    All ground radars are limited by radar horizon but OTH that bounce their signal.

    Why do you think S-400 are protected by pantsir ?
    avatar
    awmz

    Posts : 15
    Points : 17
    Join date : 2021-01-03

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  awmz Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:43 am

    Aster 30's on the Egyptian Fremms would definitely help too

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:24 pm

    New pair of Su-35SEs for the Egyptian Air Force were sighted a couple of days ago during their final testing prior to delivery.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 377790_big

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 377789_big

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 377791_big

    That camo colors and scheme are just perfect. I hope they end up ordering another batch of 30 like this one to make the total around 60 which would be decent. Then hopefully get in on the Su-57 for their 5th gen. AC.

    ahmedfire, George1 and lancelot like this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:29 pm

    @Gary, are you able to see those pics of those awesome Su-35s?  Hope so, they look amazing!

    GarryB wrote:I think he is referring to all AD around the world... a low flying target certainly can be detected, especially by airborne radar, but for most SAMs like S-300, because of ground clutter they normally can't get locks at more than 40km depending on terrain. With low hills it could be much shorter range than this.

    The whole purpose of low flying bombers and low flying cruise missiles is the difficulty of ground based systems to detect and track and to engage such targets.

    Airborne radar can detect them obviously, but in peace time are rarely used to patrol airspace... plus detection is only the first part of the puzzle... a cruise missile will often have a complex flight path weaving through mountains and hills, attacking from unexpected directions... look at the attack on Saudi Arabia... those drones and missiles obviously skirted around radars... made easier because Patriots radars are fixed 120 degree angle scanners, but still it takes talent to plan and achieve...

    Low flying targets are hard... the Soviets and Russians have spent enormous amounts of funds and time and energy getting to where they are now where they could probably blunt even a heavy cruise missile attack... but very few other countries are anywhere near that level.

    Sure.  I think we've shown, even in a very quick way with minimal pictures and historical accounts of the Egyptian EADs branch and how sophisticated it actually is.  I think a lot of people just dismiss it at their own ignorance and peril.  But it was so instrumental in 1973 that they actually made it an official branch of the armed forces!  There's the Air Force, the Navy, the Army and the Air Defense branches.  


    GarryB wrote:Chaparral is a ground launched Sidewinder... it is what happens when an army needs a missile system but no money so they go to the air force and say please can we have a missile and they say... sure have this.

    I just read this fascinating feature on the Chaparral that makes it so much more effective and desirable in the EADS than just a group of sidewinders mounted on a tracked carrier.  I just need to find it to quote it accurately and haven't been able to find it!  I hate when that happens, when you're looking for information on one thing and then stumble on great information about something else that you want to keep so you don't forget but you lose it!  I'll find it and quote you about it because it fits this discussion on low-flying cruise missiles.

    GarryB wrote:The solution is an integrated air defence network that links all your air defence batteries with all your radar stations... in the case of Russia that means the cruise missile can be detected probably just after it has been launched 3,000km away, and as it approaches the air defence systems on its flight path can be activated to look out for the cruise missile... for an S-300 battery to engage it it would need accurate target information, but as it uses track via missile guidance the low altitude shouldn't matter too much.

    That's similarly what is happening in Egypt with its air defense system, albeit on a much smaller scale for obvious reasons.  But there is a well-designed, well-built and integrated radar and SAM system in Egypt that is focused on 4 primary directions.  2 coastal and 2 land ways.  A system that uses the Protivnik and Resonance to monitor all activities within their 1,100 km radius and surveyed on an hourly basis, 24/7.  Those pics I posted on the control center is just a small part of it.  Then they have the rapid deployment forces that they've relegated several of the mobile defense systems to and there's quite the plan that goes along with that which involves quickly crossing the canal and moving into the Sinai to defend it at a very fast pace.

    GarryB wrote:With S-350 using active radar homing missiles it should be able to attack low flying targets out to its max effective range.

    It would not be efficient to use such systems for shooting down cruise missiles... it would be like trying to kill rabbits by dropping pianos on them.

    That I can certainly see.  If you have a swarm of cruise missiles coming at you, the S-300VM is probably not the best way to go.  If there are 2 to 5 cruise missiles fired and headed towards Cairo, separate from the air defense system that the EADS has installed with US systems to protect the main city, I would certainly use up 5 to 10 S-300s to take down that number of CMs.  

    But is were a swarm of them, coming in from whatever direction, of course the S-300 wouldn't be feasible and something a lot closer to this recently reveled system at the IDEX show in Dubai would be perfect and I would say, besides this type is the only thing missing currently in the EADs.

    HALCON Skynight.  Comes in containers carrying 60 missiles, it can launch 16 missiles in 3.5 seconds.  The only drawback is that the range of contact is within 10km.  Seems a bit close for comfort but like most of you are saying, it seems to be the standard of the effectiveness of this intercepting missiles due to low flying cruise missiles evading radar detection.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 1614218271919-png

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Isos Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:39 pm

    That's a joke. A radar that can track so many tinny targets doesn't exist. And it's certainly not a middle east country with no background in the developement of AD that will create such system.
    avatar
    awmz

    Posts : 15
    Points : 17
    Join date : 2021-01-03

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  awmz Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:21 pm

    Regarding defending against a cruise missile attack
    1) Whoever possesses the information prevails - intelligence and reconnaissance elements behind enemy lines, and the various means of reconnaissance in general (drones - satellites - reconnaissance planes) are a decisive and very vital factor for the information they can provide about the attack before its occurrence in terms of details about the aircraft and the quality The armament, the date of the attack, the base from which it will be launched, the flight path, the possible and confirmed targets, which provides the sufficient background and know-how to respond to the attack and deal with it, re-move and station the forces, and set up pseudo-structural targets and various ambushes to preempt the hostile attack.
    2) Reconnaissance and observation stations, which are deployed along borders and coasts, provide a visual and thermal detection feature of air threats at very low altitudes that are difficult to capture with radars.
    3) Early warning radars specializing in monitoring air threats with low radar sections, including cruise missiles, as well as those specializing in covering low and very low altitudes that are hit on high areas such as mountains, plateaus and structures designated for these purposes and are also important to detect enemy aviation at such altitudes.
    4) Airborne early warning and control aircraft (AWACS) are the main brain and brain driving air defense work to counter cruise missiles because of its enormous radar ability to detect flying missiles at low and very low altitudes with sufficient ranges that are difficult for ground radars to detect from similar ranges. Because of the earth's spherical factor.
    5) Radars, early warning and monitoring systems on the marine vessels that are the first line of defense from the coasts.
    6) Interception / Air Defense combat squadrons are responsible for countering hostile air strikes and denying enemy aviation access to the appropriate ranges to launch missiles and air ammunition on various ground targets, and they work in full coordination with ground air defense units and command and control centers Land and airborne weapons in a common battle.
    7)Owning the systems specialized in intercepting mobile missiles has become an urgent necessity and there is no alternative, the most important of which is the Pantsir S mixed artillery missile system and Tor M, but in the forefront comes the low-cost systems versus the use of high intensity fire with the feature "Fire & Forget" such as the IGLS. Igla S and Avenger, which uses Stinger missiles, these systems are characterized by their very low cost compared to the autonomous systems that rely on the guidance of the radar with the most cost, which allows them to be used with great intensity without problems so that the more expensive systems are not depleted and used with more valuable and dangerous targets.

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:49 pm

    No, no joke at all.  And why not a Middle East country?  Especially one that has been quite involved in military production and new as well as more improved systems.  This air defense system is in collaboration with a German company.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 1614217706173-png

    SkyKnight, which was unveiled at IDEX, is a radar-equipped missile made by Emirati defense company Halcon set to be integrated into the German Oerlikon air defense system, made by Rheinmetall. SkyKnight is the first missile system able to counter rockets, artillery and mortars designed and manufactured in the United Arab Emirates. The counter-drone system was designed to mitigate modern threats such as rotary-wing aircraft, UAVs, rockets, artillery, mortars and other fixed-wing aircraft at a range of up to 10 kilometers.
    “The system is able to detect, track and neutralize small-sized threats,” Halcon CEO Saeed Al Mansoori told Defense News. “It is not a joint venture, we are not participating in the technology; they already have air defense systems and we already have our missile and canister. ... We are just integrating the systems together.
    “We will be the system supplier for the Middle East region, and Rheinmetall will be the whole system supplier for Europe and other countries.”
    The UAE has already committed to buying the SkyKnight, but the system is four years away from target demonstrations.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 3d0c44a3-4584-4188-91a7-046ea508cdac-jpeg

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 4b1dd1db-d111-4ac3-8e37-29b6f0bbf863-jpeg

    They've already produced several other successful types of missile systems, so this is not their first go around with this type of technology.
    avatar
    awmz

    Posts : 15
    Points : 17
    Join date : 2021-01-03

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  awmz Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:31 pm

    Isos wrote:That's a joke. A radar that can track so many tinny targets doesn't exist. And it's certainly not a middle east country with no background in the developement of AD that will create such system.
    Ever heard of cooperation with other countries?

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:07 am

    No, no joke at all. And why not a Middle East country?

    They never build such systems. Why do you think s-400 is the best ? Because there was S-75 , S-200, S-300, S-300PM before and they always used the experience with older system to improve the new systems with better electronics.

    Even US can't develop what is shown in that video.

    Germany doesn't use german made AD systems. They have as much experience in that field as UAE. None.

    This thing is a joke. I would rather use soviet s-125 over this. They proved to be still capable in Syria.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28746
    Points : 29276
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:30 am

    @Gary, are you able to see those pics of those awesome Su-35s? Hope so, they look amazing!

    They look fantastic.... I am a little jelly... Embarassed

    That I can certainly see. If you have a swarm of cruise missiles coming at you, the S-300VM is probably not the best way to go. If there are 2 to 5 cruise missiles fired and headed towards Cairo, separate from the air defense system that the EADS has installed with US systems to protect the main city, I would certainly use up 5 to 10 S-300s to take down that number of CMs.

    That is what an IADS does... it evaluates the threat and works out what it is made up of and where it is and where it is likely heading and evaluates all the air defence systems in range as the threats move along.

    For instance if it was in Russia a group of 50 cruise missiles flying through an area that might have a MANPAD unit with the Barnaul combat system, the troops get a warning and can go outside with their MANPADS... they will get a warning as to what direction the missiles are coming from and will be cued to engage the missiles... such low flying relatively fast missiles means they might only get 4 or 5, but there are likely a few air defence zones they have to fly through so systems like SA-13 or even SA-8 could whittle away missile numbers... in Syria it was shown BUK and Pantsir managed to shoot down large numbers of threat missiles because they could use radar to start targeting at more than a few kms range, but larger heavier missiles can reduce numbers... aircraft can be scrambled too to engage threats as well... BVR missiles like the R-27 would be excellent at engaging cruise missiles for example.

    HALCON Skynight. Comes in containers carrying 60 missiles, it can launch 16 missiles in 3.5 seconds. The only drawback is that the range of contact is within 10km. Seems a bit close for comfort but like most of you are saying, it seems to be the standard of the effectiveness of this intercepting missiles due to low flying cruise missiles evading radar detection.

    To get large numbers they need to be smaller missiles so range will be reduced... it is like the new TOR missiles will likely be 5-10km range missiles specifically for use against so called swarms.

    The primary targets of swarm attacks will likely be major SAM batteries and the targets they are defending so having this Skynight or TOR systems or Pantsir protecting the S-300 or S-400 battery it wont matter they don't have longer range because the swarm will come to them.

    Owning the systems specialized in intercepting mobile missiles has become an urgent necessity and there is no alternative, the most important of which is the Pantsir S mixed artillery missile system and Tor M, but in the forefront comes the low-cost systems versus the use of high intensity fire with the feature "Fire & Forget" such as the IGLS. Igla S and Avenger, which uses Stinger missiles, these systems are characterized by their very low cost compared to the autonomous systems that rely on the guidance of the radar with the most cost, which allows them to be used with great intensity without problems so that the more expensive systems are not depleted and used with more valuable and dangerous targets.

    Would agree, but would point out that Pantsir and TOR, while certainly not cheap systems to buy actually have the enormous advantage of using relatively cheap command guided missiles which can be used in enormous volumes without costing too much...

    Fire and forget are useful and new QWIP sensors can be made rather cheaply and cheaper all the time, but command guided or laser beam riding are also cheap and effective too. I guess the best solution is the Russian solution... a bit of everything.

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:26 am

    Isos wrote:
    No, no joke at all.  And why not a Middle East country?

    They never build such systems. Why do you think s-400 is the best ? Because there was S-75 , S-200, S-300, S-300PM before and they always used the experience with older system to improve the new systems with better electronics.

    Even US can't develop what is shown in that video.

    Germany doesn't use german made AD systems. They have as much experience in that field as UAE. None.

    This thing is a joke. I would rather use soviet s-125 over this. They proved to be still capable in Syria.

    Wait what? No, things are different in this day and age, my friend. This isn't the weapons competition between the US and the Soviet Union where things were being developed to counter the other during a viscous cold war. That was basically how the Soviet Union developed all those missiles, was because they needed to counter the US bomber threat AND, the technology at the time was limited to whatever was known etc. Nowadays, there are countless weapons engineers with vast knowledge of all systems and companies all over the world with experts in weaponology, not to mention the advancement of computers and super computers that weren't really around back then.

    It's much easier to develop things in leaps and bounds these days because of all of that. If one has the funding, the knowledge and the capabilities, the sky's the limit on what they can produce.

    Oh, more importantly, the bottom line is that this Skyknight system is pretty much the Arab/German child of the Israeli Iron Dome. It pretty much functions on the same exact parameters. So there you go as far as being able to create such a system. It's already out there! lol
    Backman
    Backman

    Posts : 629
    Points : 637
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Backman Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:12 am

    All of these production Flankers of the last 2-3 years have a deeper and smoother matte finish than before
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Isos Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:36 am

    Nowadays, there are countless weapons engineers with vast knowledge of all systems and companies all over the world with experts in weaponology, not to mention the advancement of computers and super computers that weren't really around back then

    It's much easier to develop things in leaps and bounds these days because of all of that. If one has the funding, the knowledge and the capabilities, the sky's the limit on what they can produce.

    Oh, more importantly, the bottom line is that this Skyknight system is pretty much the Arab/German child of the Israeli Iron Dome. It pretty much functions on the same exact parameters. So there you go as far as being able to create such a system. It's already out there! lol

    lol1

    No there aren't many engineers that can create such systems. That's not something you can learn in school. You need to work for a company like Almaz antei or thales for decades before having the technical skills to manage a project like that but you will still need engineers with decades of experience in those same companies in your team.

    Computers are of no help. You underestimate the work needed to create such things like AD systems, radars or fighters.

    If it was that easy all the countries would have their own systems. They only have projects for which they seak help from the top 5 export weapon countries unless if it is some simplier systems.

    Yet Russia, US and France are the leaders because they have companies with more than 70 years of background. Even developed countries like south Korea needed help from those countries for their own AD system.

    Israeli iron dome sucks. And israeli have more experience than UAE in military industry. Now I let you imagine what a german-UAE copy of iron dome will be. A joke. Nothing more.
    avatar
    awmz

    Posts : 15
    Points : 17
    Join date : 2021-01-03

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  awmz Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:27 am

    Isos wrote:
    Nowadays, there are countless weapons engineers with vast knowledge of all systems and companies all over the world with experts in weaponology, not to mention the advancement of computers and super computers that weren't really around back then

    It's much easier to develop things in leaps and bounds these days because of all of that. If one has the funding, the knowledge and the capabilities, the sky's the limit on what they can produce.

    Oh, more importantly, the bottom line is that this Skyknight system is pretty much the Arab/German child of the Israeli Iron Dome. It pretty much functions on the same exact parameters. So there you go as far as being able to create such a system. It's already out there! lol

    lol1

    No there aren't many engineers that can create such systems. That's not something you can learn in school. You need to work for a company like Almaz antei or thales for decades before having the technical skills to manage a project like that but you will still need engineers with decades of experience in those same companies in your team.

    Computers are of no help. You underestimate the work needed to create such things like AD systems, radars or fighters.

    If it was that easy all the countries would have their own systems. They only have projects for which they seak help from the top 5 export weapon countries unless if it is some simplier systems.

    Yet Russia, US and France are the leaders because they have companies with more than 70 years of background. Even developed countries like south Korea needed help from those countries for their own AD system.

    Israeli iron dome sucks. And israeli have more experience than UAE in military industry. Now I let you imagine what a german-UAE copy of iron dome will be. A joke. Nothing more.
    Just lost brain cells reading this but its fine

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:16 am

    awmz wrote:Just lost brain cells reading this but its fine

    LOL!  It's like pounding sand, or beating a dead horse lmaooo.  Isos is old school you can tell.  "They can't build that kinda thing what do they know those desert dwellers!  We grinded decade after decade building the best missiles and you think these guys can just come along and put something like that together!"  

    All that's left is "back in my day, I used to walk to school on one leg holding my sister with one arm and my brother with the other in 2 feet of snow and never complained about it! lol1

    Halcon has a TREMENDOUS exhibit at EDEX and will be coming to Egypt for IDEX in September or December whenever they're slated to have it.

    They make precision guidance kits and just signed a huge contract with the UAE. I know they have several cruise missiles also that were on display.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.armyrecognition.com%2Fimages%2Fstories%2Fmiddle_east%2Funited_arab_emirates%2Fdefence_exhibition%2Fidex_2021%2Fpictures%2FHALCON_signs_contract_for_supply_of_Precision-Guidance_Kit_Systems_to_UAE_Air_Force_Air_Defence-002

    They signed another huge contract for this anti-ship missile they've created and put together and demonstrated and has incredible reviews.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fg7a6v6x7.rocketcdn.me%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F02%2FHALCON-breaks-cover-on-HAS-250-antiship-missile-770x410

    But hey, desert dwellers are incapable apparently loool.  Part of this company was the buyout of Denel from South Africa and now it's a conglomerate of mostly UAE engineers along with some Europeans within the company.  They have an super impressive inventory of great new technology for a bunch of desert dwellers.  We'll see them InshaAllah when they come to Egypt for another exhibit like this one.  Hopefully by then, the Skynight will be in even more advanced stage.
    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:34 am

    Backman wrote:All of these production Flankers of the last 2-3 years have a deeper and smoother matte finish than before

    All 46 MiG-29M/35 that the EAF ordered a couple of years ago were also painted in that matte finish.  Must be the preferred finish for all these new birds.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Egyptian-air-force-mig-29m-fighter-jet-crash


    Last edited by Gomig-21 on Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:14 am; edited 1 time in total

    lancelot, Backman and TMA1 like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28746
    Points : 29276
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:38 am

    I don't agree with his scepticism in this case but there is more to producing a modern capable air defence missile than displaying prototypes and models and pretty pictures and flashy videos.

    Showing a new system is one thing but actually deploying it with a real military force and using it against a real opponent is another thing.

    Many Russian systems were tested in Syria and while lots were mature systems most required modifications and upgrades after the experience... some minor and some quite dramatic.

    For over a decade Russian potential UAV makers have been showing nice bright shiny drone designs, from about the mid 1990s, and they appeared to be capable modern systems, but when the Georgians attacked South Ossetia and all of a sudden Russia found out what tricky targets drones were... shooting them down with MiG-29s is not super cheap or efficient but the air defence systems in place at the time were not adequate... they didn't have enough of an IR signature for engaging with MANPADS, while ZU-23 couldn't reach above about 2km altitude, so they ended up having to use BUK... which worked but was not an ideal solution.

    More importantly all those drones they have been showing at airshows and defence events turned out to not be combat ready... not a surprise because none of them had been used operationally so they used the Israeli Forepost... an old system for Israel, but combat proven and mature and something the Russians learned from.

    These days there is no question about Russian drones because money and time and experience has gone in to their design and they are constantly testing them in field conditions in use by soldier in the field.

    This system looks interesting, but lets see how it performs...
    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:I don't agree with his scepticism in this case but there is more to producing a modern capable air defence missile than displaying prototypes and models and pretty pictures and flashy videos.

    Showing a new system is one thing but actually deploying it with a real military force and using it against a real opponent is another thing.

    Many Russian systems were tested in Syria and while lots were mature systems most required modifications and upgrades after the experience... some minor and some quite dramatic.

    For over a decade Russian potential UAV makers have been showing nice bright shiny drone designs, from about the mid 1990s, and they appeared to be capable modern systems, but when the Georgians attacked South Ossetia and all of a sudden Russia found out what tricky targets drones were... shooting them down with MiG-29s is not super cheap or efficient but the air defence systems in place at the time were not adequate... they didn't have enough of an IR signature for engaging with MANPADS, while ZU-23 couldn't reach above about 2km altitude, so they ended up having to use BUK... which worked but was not an ideal solution.

    More importantly all those drones they have been showing at airshows and defence events turned out to not be combat ready... not a surprise because none of them had been used operationally so they used the Israeli Forepost... an old system for Israel, but combat proven and mature and something the Russians learned from.

    These days there is no question about Russian drones because money and time and experience has gone in to their design and they are constantly testing them in field conditions in use by soldier in the field.

    This system looks interesting, but lets see how it performs...

    Indeed.  Just crapping all over it and for the reasons mentioned was not really a desirable exchange to be had, to be perfectly honest.  

    Of course there has to be testing in real conditions to be able to determine if that system works as advertised.  But the point was that something to that effect, a bucket that carries multiple missiles and can fire them in batches would really be the only thing that would be somewhat effective against a decent swarm of cruise missiles.  Not much else would work short of a massive EMP burst that would take out your own systems lol.  

    But having a bucket like that spaced out within a predetermined distance of mileage along the coast and working off a central surveillance system -- which the Egyptian EADS already has established and we showed pics of it etc.-- would be ideal IMO.

    I think back in 2018, there was an Egyptian military delegation in Russia looking into the Bastion Coastal defense system.  Nothing that we know has transpired out of that, but it just goes to show you how serious the Egyptian military is at protecting its territories and assets from aerial threats, swarms or cruise missiles included in the perceived threats.  

    Anyhoo, back to the EAF as this thread is about that, we've been discussing on another forum the possibility of the EAF getting the R-37M with the weapons package that would come with the Su-35SE?  What are the chances that Russia would export such a potent missile to Egypt?  A hypersonic missile with a 400km range and a speed of Mach 6 has no current competitors out there and if the EAF ends up with that, it would have the most potent A2A missile in the entire region, including those of Israel.  So I truly wonder if Russia would give in to Israeli pressure which is undoubtedly currently being thrown at it to NOT supply the EAF with that super deadly missile?  

    While the EAF will most likely get the Meteor missile for its Rafales now that Dassault and MBDA has integrated it on a Rafale F3R and will be doing so for the entire French fleet, the current export customers which include India, Qatar and of course, Egypt all have the Meteor missile in their contracts and all their Rafales are F3Rs so we should expect that terrific missile to be integrated on all EAF Rafales as well. But, as awesome as that missile is, it's no competition to the R-37M.  So will the EAF get that missile with the Su-35SE?  Or will Russia not allow it just yet for whatever reason?

    Most recent French Rafale F3R with integrated Meteor missiles.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aerotime.aero%2Fupload%2Ffiles%2F1250x420%2Fdassault_rafale_f3r_meteor_missile_crop

    I came across this article regarding the Russian R-37M hypersonic missile and so far, I think the only 2 aircraft capable of carrying this thing and launching it are the Su-34 and Su-35. Being that the Su-35SE is coming to Egypt, and we haven't seen any R-27s on the MiG-29m/35, I'm pretty sure the R-27ER and IR (I think) will be part of the ammunitions package of the Su-35SE to the EAF. But according to this read, the R-37M hypersonic missile might be part of that package as well. That would be incredible if the Russians provided this deadly missile to the EAF with the 30 Su-35SEs.

    Could Egypt’s Su-35 Acquisition Be a Path its First to Hypersonic Missiles? What the R-37M Can Offer

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 1615738228778-png

    On March 18th a number of sources reported that the Egyptian Armed Forces were set to acquire a sizeable unit of Su-35 ‘4++ generation’ air superiority fighters, which would be delivered from 2020-2021. Over two dozen fighters would be provided alongside munitions, training and maintenance infrastructure under a $2 billion contract - forming the only unit of heavyweight fighters in the country’s fleet and the only one specialized in air superiority. The aircraft can operate at considerably higher speeds and altitudes, with higher weapons payloads and with heavier and more powerful sensors and more modern electronic warfare systems, than anything previously in the Egyptian fleet.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 1615737938493-png

    The Su-35 is set to provide the Egyptian Air Force with a number entirely new of high end capabilities, many of which it has sought for many years ever since it sought permission to acquire F-15C Eagle air superiority fighters from the United States. The fighters will be of a small minority in the Egyptian fleet capable of deploying modern standoff air to air missiles, with only the country’s two recently acquired MiG-29M squadrons currently deploying such missiles and its Rafales possibly set to integrate such missiles in future. Alongside standard munitions such as the R-77 and R-27ER, platforms with speeds between Mach 4 and Mach 5 and ranges of 110-130km, the Su-35 is also capable of deploying a hypersonic air to air missile with an extreme range. The R-37 is one of just two modern hypersonic air to air missiles in service anywhere in the world, alongside the Taiwanese Sky Sword II, and the R-37M variant is reportedly compatible with the Su-35 and Su-57 airframes. The missile will provide Egypt with by far its longest ranged anti aircraft capability, and has a 400km range and a speed of Mach 6.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 1615737997462-png

    Paired with the Su-35’s powerful Irbis-E radar, the R-37 can be used to neutralize high value enemy support aircraft such as AWACS and tankers at extreme ranges. The missile may also prove useful against enemy fighter jets at shorter ranges, and its considerable speed significantly decreases the time for targeted aircraft to respond. None of Egypt’s neighbors or potential adversaries currently deploy a missile with comparable capabilities to the R-37M, which would complement the already formidable capabilities of the Su-35 to provide the state with a considerable advantage in potential air engagements. The missile will also complement the advanced S-300V4 long range surface to air missile batteries Egypt purchased in 2013, which are compatible with the 40N6E hypersonic anti aircraft missiles which also have a 400km range. Egypt is not known to have acquired the 40N6E for its S-300 batteries as of yet. While Egypt has come under considerable pressure from the Western Bloc to terminate its plans to purchase the Su-35, the United States’ refusal to provide similarly capable fighters for four decades and the lack of comparable alternatives provides Cairo with a strong incentive to follow through on its plans to acquire the jets.

    https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/could-egypt-s-su-35-acquisition-be-a-path-its-first-to-hypersonic-missiles-what-the-r-37m-can-offer

    ahmedfire and Hannibal Barca like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28746
    Points : 29276
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:48 am

    The R-37 and R-37M were developed with the intention of being carried by all their newest fighters... in the 1990s the maker of the missiles stated the missile would be carried by the MiG-31M of course... its primary user, but they also said it was intended for use in the new primary fighters going forward... at that time that was the MiG-35, Su-35 and the Yak-141 and the future fighter... then known as the MFS I think, now known as Su-57.

    If the Russians do sell the RVV-BD (R-37M) to Egypt... and it is the export model intended for export so I don't see why they wouldn't sell them, I hope they are smart enough to keep the sale secret.

    There will be a backlash from the US and Israel if these missiles are seen on Egyptian aircraft.

    Sounds pretty obvious, but when you are playing Poker for something more valuable than money... ie your life... you don't play with your cards face up on the table...

    AFAIK the RVV-BD is the missile for export and its flight range is about 200km.

    As it says on its advert page:
    The missile is designed to arm export aircraft versions of MiG and Su type. May be adapted to aircraft of non-Russian makes.

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/air-to-air_long-range_missile_rvv-bd.html

    I rather suspect if you are interested in a longer ranged version they might allow a joint venture to extend the range to 300km which is about the limit for export type missiles I would think.

    The Russians are on the verge of introducing its replacement so it might be worth having a chat and finding out what Egypts options actually are.

    They dropped development of a ramjet powered AAM but I think that was because it was at a time when scramjet powered weapons were becoming viable... which is essentially the equivalent of stopping work on Turboprop engines for a high speed transport aircraft when efficient turbofans are coming on line...

    ahmedfire and Gomig-21 like this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:31 am

    GarryB wrote:The R-37 and R-37M were developed with the intention of being carried by all their newest fighters... in the 1990s the maker of the missiles stated the missile would be carried by the MiG-31M of course... its primary user, but they also said it was intended for use in the new primary fighters going forward... at that time that was the MiG-35, Su-35 and the Yak-141 and the future fighter... then known as the MFS I think, now known as Su-57.

    You know that HALCON is a derivative on the South African co Denel with was in cahoots with Israel as far as all technology being invented and produced because they wanted to control the African market? Well, when apartheid fell on its face in SA, Israel slowly pulled out without creating a fuss but left behind A LOT of stuff they were working on and one of them was this Skynight system which the African market seems to have been taken over by Egypt, Turkey and the UAE, two of thos desert dwellers and we know how Russians feel about dessert dwellers LOLOL! It's ok, we're alright with that. Between our brothers in the UAE, this will dominate the shores along all of Egypt you'll see. Some hidden and fixed and the other mobile once it's fully and successfully functioning.



    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Screenshot-2021-03-18-6-09-39-pm-png

    ahmedfire likes this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:45 am

    @Gary, honestly, bro, the days that we are walking on eggshells just so that we don't piss off the US should be long over. I say the first Su-30SE flying in lead formation should have all 8 pylons loaded with the R-37M and let the Israeli and American have a shitfit in their pants! Those days are long gone, my good friend. I'm frankly tired of being reluctant of what the other side will think. They want to close off the $1.3 billion in military aid (which BTW the Egyptian military doesn't see a dime if that of tat in form of bills because it goes to the companies like Boeing or LM or Raytheon or whomever wins the next contract to build some obsolete munitions' for the EAF and so what do I have to say to that?

    GOOD RIDDANCE!!!!! The stipulations that come with that LOUSY $1.3 billion is way too much of a price for us to pay when we can purchase the best equipment out there at cost and not rely at scraps from the US. Screw that ten times over and let's put an end to that immediately so we're not hostages to that low form of scraps!!!

    Time to move on and the Europeans can test to that since everything we've bought from them we've paid CASH and on time if not, ahead of time!!!! So the US can kiss off.

    Backman likes this post

    TMA1
    TMA1

    Posts : 130
    Points : 132
    Join date : 2020-11-30

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  TMA1 Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:34 am

    The skynight system looks really impressive (and expensive!!). the large missile pods combined with quick moving high caliber AA cannons is the way short range air defense is going.

    And agreed a lot of people here in America are waking up to the slitheriness of our foreign policy and how long it has been going on. CAATSA is flat out coercive. And what we have been doing in Africa and the mid east is nuts. I think a lot of us who were younger woke up with the so-called "arab spring" and the color revolutions across eastern Europe and elsewhere.

    I dont think America exists anymore. Our leaders get their policies overseas, have their money overseas, and see the future of America as just some economic zone in a larger superstate. It's time to vote these fuckers out.

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28746
    Points : 29276
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:56 am

    My view is that it is an easily attainable capability that you could pretty much have in service right now, but once it is revealed you have it your enemies will change tactics and introduce counters to fight against it.

    I think the first day of war is the best time to reveal such things to an enemy... watching them piss their pants in peace time is satisfying, but when they wont come close and they become hard to fight then you might reconsider the temporary joy and think surprise in battle with lots of initial kills to be more satisfying... especially if you target super expensive AWACS platforms wiht it rather than wasting it on drones and fighters.

    Just my opinion of course.

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:56 am

    GarryB wrote:My view is that it is an easily attainable capability that you could pretty much have in service right now, but once it is revealed you have it your enemies will change tactics and introduce counters to fight against it.

    I think the first day of war is the best time to reveal such things to an enemy... watching them piss their pants in peace time is satisfying, but when they wont come close and they become hard to fight then you might reconsider the temporary joy and think surprise in battle with lots of initial kills to be more satisfying... especially if you target super expensive AWACS platforms wiht it rather than wasting it on drones and fighters.

    Just my opinion of course.

    You know, this message is for the one and only @Isos to check out that even desert dwellers are VERY capable engineers and producers.  A quick short video that Isos should watch for the importance and how the design of the 3 Skiynight missiles which they even developed single, dual, triple and even quadruple racks for attack aircraft capable of carrying these smart weapons.  HALCON is part of Edge military supply company who were strongly affiliated with that South African Co that went out of business even though strongly partnered with Israahell shows you how much they really care about who they partner with.  Anyway EXCELLENT short video that makes that cruise missiles one that makes that cruise missile one very attainable in the near future and no, sorry without any offense intended, you don't have to be Russian or American fighting half a decade of a cold war developing weapons that could destroy the whole world in seconds to be able to produce small, super smartly engineered weaponry that could one day steal the market because of its possible lack of restrictions and its high demand.

    Like I said short video to give more info on local Arab weapons and engineering and then back to Egypt.



    What we probably already figured out was the arrangement but their pods and weapons are much more than this because they're not advertising everything.

    As far as Egypt is concerned, it must be quite happy with the intel gathering capabilities it's getting from it's specialized Beechcraft1900c to feed its 8 (soon to be 10) E-2C Hawkeyes since it hasn't bothered with any Phalcon's when it probably easily could unless they have to deal with the hell called Swede, then fuhgetabout ot.

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.defense-arabic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F04%2F%25D8%25A3%25D8%25A8%25D8%25B1%25D8%25B2-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D9%2582%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AA%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AA-%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B0%25D8%25AE%25D8%25A7%25D8%25A6%25D8%25B1-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D8%25B5%25D8%25B1%25D9%258A%25D8%25A9-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25AA%25D9%258A-%25D9%2582%25D8%25AF-%25D8%25AA%25D8%25B3%25D8%25AA%25D8%25AE%25D8%25AF%25D9%2585-%25D9%2581%25D9%258A-%25D9%2585%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AC%25D9%2587%25D8%25A9-%25D8%25A3%25D9%258A-%25D8%25AA%25D9%2587%25D8%25AF%25D9%258A%25D8%25AF-%25D9%258A%25D8%25B3%25D8%25AA%25D9%2587%25D8%25AF%25D9%2581-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A3%25D9%2585%25D9%2586-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2582%25D9%2588%25D9%2585%25D9%258A-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D8%25B5%25D8%25B1%25D9%258A
    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21

    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:My view is that it is an easily attainable capability that you could pretty much have in service right now, but once it is revealed you have it your enemies will change tactics and introduce counters to fight against it.

    I think the first day of war is the best time to reveal such things to an enemy... watching them piss their pants in peace time is satisfying, but when they wont come close and they become hard to fight then you might reconsider the temporary joy and think surprise in battle with lots of initial kills to be more satisfying... especially if you target super expensive AWACS platforms wiht it rather than wasting it on drones and fighters.

    Just my opinion of course.

    Agree, especially if you're fighting a capable enemy who can fabricate 100's of decoy or cheap target drones and send them in first and drain your stock. Sounds like some Star Wars scenario lol.

    Sponsored content

    Egyptian Air Force (EAF) - Page 15 Empty Re: Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:01 pm