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    Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:57 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can we hope to be expecting a few hundred Su-34s by the end of the decaded that will hit service with non elite units too by the end of the decade? Having less than 20 in the future would be just pathetic. Come on this isnt 5th gen stuff and the Su-34 itself has been existing since the early 90s.

    No.

    Current order and likely number is ~140 through 2020. Which is quite good for such a specialized aircraft, all things considered.

    By that time NATO will have who knows how many hundreds of F-35s in service and might possibly introduce a new model stealth strike aircraft

    What nation aside from the US is going to have hundreds of F-35s in service?

    What sort of AF do you expect given Russia's budget?

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    Post  SOC on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:51 am

    Sujoy wrote:Though it was named back then as Su-30MK. Then the name was changed to the Su-32MF and it was only ten years later that the plane got its current name.

    Su-27IB/T-10V. Su-30MK was the modified desert splinter camo Su-27UB (pictured below) demoed at the Paris Airshow and other places as a multirole derivative of the Su-27UB/Su-30 targeted at the export market. Su-32MF was a derivative designation, intended to describe a variant of the Su-34 more capable of performing naval-related overwater tasks. Su-30MK led directly to the Su-30MKI when India got interested.

    Supposedly, the name was changed from Su-27IB to Su-34 to separate the jet in the minds of people with money from the extant Su-27 family. As in, they'd rather pay for something perceived as new rather than something perceived as derivative.

    Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News - Page 7 30m10

    TR-1 wrote:What nation aside from the US is going to have hundreds of F-35s in service?

    NATO includes the US. Even without the US, there could still be hundreds of them within NATO, given the number of nations affiliated with the ridiculous program. Rolling Eyes
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:17 am

    True, but in that case we are comparing far larger budgets in total than Russia has to play with.

    Which is why I am not sure what Kommisar is upset with.

    How many F-35s there are in non-US service by 2020 is a question in itself.
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    Post  SOC on Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:56 am

    TR1 wrote:True, but in that case we are comparing far larger budgets in total than Russia has to play with.

    Which is why I am not sure what Kommisar is upset with.

    How many F-35s there are in non-US service by 2020 is a question in itself.

    The "problem", in terms of acquiring a few hundred Su-34s, is that a large portion of the Russian defense budget is (and will continue for the near term) going to upgrading the strategic forces. SSBNs are not cheap; neither is the development and fielding of new ICBMs. An RS-24 in and of itself might not seem like a big-ticket item, but you have to consider that for every RS-24 there's a TEL to buy and maintain, a crew to pay (although the crew is likely retrained from a displaced Topol unit), and infrastructure to modernize where the new kit will be operating. Then there's 100 Nebo-M units, S-400 batteries that likely cost upwards of $300 million per...and by the way you're also developing and procuring the T-50 and other FLANKER derivatives. And modernizing the MiG-31s. And, back to StratFor, modernizing various bombers. Oh, and I think the Russian Army and Russian Navy may require a bit of cash for various things as well.

    It's nothing to do with how well the Su-34 will or will not perform, it's simply a money issue. 140 or so FULLBACKs will give Russia enough multi-role PGM capable strikers to bomb anyone who is retarded enough to ignore the still massive RVSN. It would appear that Russia's current goal, while still modernizing and updating the rest of the military, is to ensure it's security through a wholly revamped strategic force and an even more ridiculous IADS. This is basically Russia's way of saying "you have until 2020 or so to learn how to not piss us off, because by then we'll be able to shift a lot of this cash back towards tank production should we feel so inclined."
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:38 am

    SOC wrote:...It would appear that Russia's current goal, while still modernizing and updating the rest of the military, is to ensure it's security through a wholly revamped strategic force and an even more ridiculous IADS...

    I think that's how they've always (Soviet era included) seen the basis of their security - A viable nuclear force and a strong strategic air-defence.
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    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:34 am

    SOC wrote:Supposedly, the name was changed from Su-27IB to Su-34 to separate the jet in the minds of people with money from the extant Su-27 family. As in, they'd rather pay for something perceived as new rather than something perceived as derivative.

    Makes sense . The manufacturer , however, still uses the designation SU 32 in Russia .

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su32/

    In all likelihood they would export it under the name SU 34 . There is a buzz here in Asia that Vietnam may be the first client as they want to replace their 50 odd SU 22 with the SU 34.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:00 am

    The military found defects on the Su-34 bombers

    Of course they are going to find defects, that is the purpose of testing, and no aircraft on the planet is without faults... even after years of being in service.

    Officer-cum-operational service told the BBC, each incoming aircraft has their individual differences. In particular, one aircraft electric motors auxiliary units are located in one place, the other - in the other. In this Command of the Russian Air Force officer told the "News" that the last three Su-34 is different from the others for the better.

    Well duh. As each batch of aircraft is built they will learn new and more efficient ways of building them, plus feed back from those they have already produced will be used to improve the design as well. Eventually they will be making planes the most efficient way, the way the Air Force wants them and they can take that as the production standard to produce new aircraft by and of course to upgrade older existing types to.

    The Tu-160 is a case in point where no two aircraft were exactly the same as produced. The current upgrades to Tu-160M should unify all the systems and equipment so they are all the same to simplify maintainence and logistics.

    By that time NATO will have who knows how many hundreds of F-35s in service and might possibly introduce a new model stealth strike aircraft

    So.

    It really doesn't matter how many F-35s NATO has because in terms of performance the F-35 would probably have serious problems keeping up with an Su-34 let alone intercepting it. The Su-34 is a strike aircraft, the Russians don't need to have the same number of Su-34s as NATO has F-35s. They need as many Su-34s as they need to hit the targets they need to hit against enemy x.

    The fighter aspect of the SU 34 is

    The Su-34 is not a fighter, and its crews will not be trained in dogfighting, but dogfighting is dead as close in manouvering combat is far too dangerous with modern WVR AAMs. In BVR combat the important factors are missile range and energy and that comes from launch platforms speed and height, and to be honest the Su-34 should be able to climb as high and as fast as any western equivalent fighter and it can certainly carry the full range of AAMs including the RVV-BD/Phoenix equivalent.

    It's nothing to do with how well the Su-34 will or will not perform, it's simply a money issue. 140 or so FULLBACKs will give Russia enough multi-role PGM capable strikers to bomb anyone who is retarded enough to ignore the still massive RVSN.

    Those worried that it wont be enough should remember that Russia is not the Soviet Union, the Su-34 is far more capable than the Su-24 and at least shares a few components with the Su-35 which should ease costs, and finally once upgraded the Russian Air Force will also have Tu-95MSM, Tu-160M, and Tu-22M3M aircraft for long range and super long range conventional strike missions, so in fact these Russian strike forces will actually be far more capable than Soviet aircraft strike capabilities have ever been.

    Makes sense . The manufacturer , however, still uses the designation SU 32 in Russia .

    The design bureaus have some input but the actual service designations are military and the Air Force will decide what they call them.

    There is a buzz here in Asia that Vietnam may be the first client as they want to replace their 50 odd SU 22 with the SU 34.

    Quite a step in performance... I can hear a certain Aussie expert calling for Aussie F-22s... Smile Twisted Evil


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:48 am

    GarryB wrote:The Su-34 is not a fighter, and its crews will not be trained in dog fighting

    The first batch of pilots for the SU 32 / SU 34 were ex Su 27 pilots .

    Konstantin Makiyenko stated that "a multirole fighter like the Su-30 could perform the Su-34’s missions, but there’s some desire to send NAPO orders"

    GarryB wrote: I can hear a certain Aussie expert calling for Aussie F-22s... Smile Twisted Evil

    Probably after having a few pints of Fosters - Australian for BS.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:06 am

    No it couldn't.

    The Su-34 is optimised for long range missions... 8 hours or longer, where the ability to stand up, to relieve oneself, simply to have a lie down, or hot food would have a measurable effect on performance.

    The self defence avionics and systems on the Su-34 are custom designed for the job.

    Initially it was thought the Su-34 would be a swing fighter bomber, but it was found that it is not dogfighter, and the role of AAMs on the aircraft are for defence only.

    The first pilots might have been ex-27 pilots, but the operational deployments are to ex Su-24 units that don't practise air to air except escape and evasion.

    Top cover will likely be provided by Su-35s or PAK FAs... the Su-34s themselves will likely carry air to ground weapons and targeting pods and self defence pods.

    Communication between crewmen is much better in the side by side seating arrangement... which is why the F-111 and Ka-52 and Su-24 use it as well.

    Probably after having a few pints of Fosters - Australian for BS.

    Was thinking specifically of our friend Mr Kopp, who does not like the F-35 and has been suggesting the F-22 for Australia for quite some time... Wink
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:52 am

    Indeed, the Su-34 has genesis in excellent fighter genes, but it is simply not suitable for the role in its current state. (That being said, it is much better than Su-24 was/is in the role).
    It is simply too heavy, aerodynamically "spoiled", electronically optimized for ground attack, to be considered really multiple like say Su-30.

    It has a big spectrum of capabilities, no denying that. There is a reason the RuAF waited for so long and patiently for its Su-34s.
    If anything IRKUT were the ones who got an order (Su-30SM) because of a desire to fund them, not so much because the RuAF always wanted the Su-30SM.
    It helps that it is a fantastic plane and the RuAF needs new birds in anycase.
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    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:52 am

    GarryB wrote:Top cover will likely be provided by Su-35s or PAK FAs... the Su-34s themselves will likely carry air to ground weapons and targeting pods and self defence pods.

    Correct . Not that the fighter role is it's primary role but it can play that role if need be especially as I said earlier if a foreign client ( like Vietnam) imports it.

    The manufacturer reflects in their website the air to air weapons that it can carry

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su32/arms/


    GarryB wrote:Was thinking specifically of our friend Mr Kopp, who does not like the F-35 and has been suggesting the F-22 for Australia for quite some time... Wink

    I too got it Smile and coming from Mr.Kopp it must be serious , after all he has presented 3 ( till last count) white papers in the Australian parliament stating that India plans to occupy Australia. Smile
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:12 am

    (That being said, it is much better than Su-24 was/is in the role).

    When first seen in the west some experts actually mistook the Su-24 for a fighter and for a period it was assumed to be a bigger heavier Mig-23. Keep in mind that the first F-111 was a carrier based fighter, though the engines and radar and missiles developed for it eventually ended up on the F-14 it was too heavy for carrier use.

    I remember lots of magazines in the 1980s showing the Su-24 with R-23 air to air missiles developed for the Mig-23.

    Of course it was actually limited to R-60 self defence missiles, which were actually rather a lot better than the older R-13 Atoll missiles previously used but not as good as Sidewinder or R-73.

    Later model Fencers got R-73, but in comparison the Su-34 has the potential to be very very well armed, and for another country it might make sense to use them in the long range patrol mode with its powerful radar used to find air targets and its ample pylon endowment for lots of medium and long range AAMs.

    The Mig-31 is not much of a dogfighter either, but in terms of height and speed it is one of the better interceptors around.

    after all he has presented 3 ( till last count) white papers in the Australian parliament stating that India plans to occupy Australia

    Yeah... I have heard Indians have a thing for convicts, and like sand... Twisted Evil
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:44 am

    GarryB wrote:Yeah... I have heard Indians have a thing for convicts, and like sand... Twisted Evil

    Why not....the Indians are the most numerous arrivals in Australia lately...after the Kiwis offcourse Cool
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    Post  medo on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:42 pm

    Later model Fencers got R-73, but in comparison the Su-34 has the potential to be very very well armed, and for another country it might make sense to use them in the long range patrol mode with its powerful radar used to find air targets and its ample pylon endowment for lots of medium and long range AAMs.

    Years ago I read, that Su-34 radar V004 could detect air target more than 200 km away. Armed with R-73, R-27 and R-77 AAMs and air refueling Su-34 could also do long range air patroling (in peace time or against bombers where dogfight capabilities are not necessary) over Siberia or northern regions, because pilots have space to rest and small kitchen for coffee or snack and could stay longer in the air than Mig-31 or Su-35. But its primary role is ground attack like Su-24 or Tu-22M3 do.
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    Post  medo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:57 pm

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/26153/

    First photos of new Su-34 in flight tests.
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    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:27 pm

    medo wrote:http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/26153/

    First photos of new Su-34 in flight tests.

    Well what ever the problems we keep reading about Su-34 these days that might affect production rate I do hope

    NAPO keeps up with the scheduled airframe production. All other things can be added latter making delays only temporary

    as long airframes are on number.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:29 pm

    Rumors that only 5 are going to be delivered abound Sad .

    How did they manage to do worse than last year lol......
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    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:42 pm

    TR1 wrote:Rumors that only 5 are going to be delivered abound Sad .

    How did they manage to do worse than last year lol......

    Maybe they will deliver 2 batches close (5+6). They did it last year
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:26 pm

    Su-34 is a very important plane to the Russian Air Force.

    I rather suspect it will be very much like the S-400 where production was increased by building another factory.

    Obviously making the air frames isn't the problem but whatever is not being produced fast enough will likely get the kick or the cash it needs and once that is sorted out then production can ramp up.

    The Su-34 is a very capable and sophisticated aircraft... they are probably introducing new equipment all the time as it is developed for the Su-35 and PAK FA, so I suspect they will want to iron out all the important bugs and get the perfect mix for the role before spending money to increase production.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:38 pm

    George1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Rumors that only 5 are going to be delivered abound Sad .

    How did they manage to do worse than last year lol......

    Maybe they will deliver 2 batches close (5+6). They did it last year

    Not a chance- insiders are saying the planned number won't be met.
    I was hoping for 8 though, guess even that won't be met.
    Don't think NAPO is @ fault either.
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    Post  Ogannisyan8887 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:19 am

    TR1 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Rumors that only 5 are going to be delivered abound Sad .

    How did they manage to do worse than last year lol......

    Maybe they will deliver 2 batches close (5+6). They did it last year

    Not a chance- insiders are saying the planned number won't be met.
    I was hoping for 8 though, guess even that won't be met.

    Don't think NAPO is @ fault either.


    Well we won't fully know until next week, and how is it not NAPO fault? They are the ones making plane after all, and they better increase production because at this rate state defense order for Su-34 won't be fulfilled until 2030
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:26 am

    NAPO could make 15-20 airframes a year without too much difficulty.
    The problem is system (avionics) suppliers - among them Lenninets.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:36 am

    Well we won't fully know until next week, and how is it not NAPO fault?

    It is likely certain components that are not being produced very quickly that are the problem... just like in the 1980s when there were Flanker airframes piling up but no radar or avionics systems to fit into them... because they were new and the maker was having trouble moving from prototype to mass serial production.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:15 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    The problem is system (avionics) suppliers - among them Lenninets.

    This is weird... problem with Leninetz Radar's was supposedly already known since..well decades ago..i wonder why not looking on someone else like say Phazotron.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:32 am

    Well they might have figured the radar out, but serial production is a whole nother issue.

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