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    Sino-Indian border dispute

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:05 pm

    Where do you witness the military-grade weapon granted to those kids? scratch
    And yes, I wast learned how to shot with KBKS - a 5.6mm weapon - when I was about 12 y/o.
    It was a part of my regular education.
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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:44 am

    East German youth were trained with this little beauty in .22 caliber. Would love to have one myself but are extremely rare as most were destroyed.

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    It has been mentioned that 8-16 year old kids are doing these camps in China?
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    Post  Mir Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:52 am

    Soviet era Young Pioneers getting some military training.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:55 am

    Functionally in all War Pac member states defence was a regular part of school education.
    5.6mm (0.22cal) weaponry was stored at schools directly.
    Kids were reached how to wear a gas mask, how to treat wounds, how to make a water filter out of a bottle with sand, stones, and carbon, how to use a compass and map ... it would be called "survival techniques" now.
    Hell, we even held school olympics Laughing and I won 1st prize in shooting when I was 13 y/o, in elementary school Twisted Evil

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    Post  Sujoy Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:09 am

    I understand the concept of creating conscripts is essential for countries that have a small population.

    But why would a country of 1.5 billion people with a 2 million strong army create conscripts? That too including 8 year old kids.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:12 am

    It has nothing to do with the population size.
    The point is, that there is nothing outrageous in that.
    Usual things.
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    Post  Mir Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am

    ALAMO wrote:Functionally in all War Pac member states defence was a regular part of school education.
    5.6mm (0.22cal) weaponry was stored at schools directly.
    Kids were reached how to wear a gas mask, how to treat wounds, how to make a water filter out of a bottle with sand, stones, and carbon, how to use a compass and map ... it would be called "survival techniques" now.
    Hell, we even held school olympics Laughing and I won 1st prize in shooting when I was 13 y/o, in elementary school Twisted Evil

    We had a very similar setup in South Africa. The "Voortrekkers" is a youth movement similar to the Young Pioneers or Boys'/Girls Scouts.
    In High School we had the Cadets which was a bit more styled like the military but in many ways similar to the "Voortrekker" movement. That was disbanded in 1994 but I believe the Voortrekkers are still active? We also used .22 rifles for target shooting and once a year we had a military style camp where we were introduced to some of the weapons and equipment used by the Army. We were trained to use the R1 (FN FAL) rifle and the Uzi SMG's.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:39 pm

    You learn how to use ak-47 at boyscoot camps ? I doubt.

    Handling firearms was certainly part of Boy Scout training.

    Considering the coalition of the mentally challenged have decided to form against China can you really blame them for wanting to prepare for a conflict.

    I am wondering what is wrong with India to not be doing the same, or do they think they are just going to sit in the car beside the US and Japan and Australia and South Korea and throw eggs at Chinas house and then drive away real fast...

    The real irony is that if this was Israel no one would even care.

    Almost as if western people don't understand their big game use of sanctions and freedom of navigation actions might lead anywhere...

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:48 am

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:15 pm

    Chinese military experts suggest that China can strike and destroy BRAHMOS deployed at the border in the event of a conflict even before India gets to launch them

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:12 am

    Good... that means they are so afraid of it they are planning to attack them before they are launched rather than deal with them as they arrive on target.

    Their obvious problem is that there is a first batch of 40 odd missiles but that will no doubt be followed up with purchases of larger batches so the ability to deal with them before they can be launched will only get harder.

    Ironically designing a truck based launcher that stores the missiles in a standard shipping crate would mean every truck near the Chinese border carrying such a load on its back will make pre-emptive self defence impossible.

    Of course not putting missiles along your border would go a long way to lowering tensions and keeping the peace... they are light and highly mobile so you could put them on a plane and fly them to the border easily and quickly enough without the tension created by basing them there in the first place.

    The key to escalations is don't rush to ratchet up the pressure because it always just costs you more money in the long run.

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    Post  Sujoy Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:05 am

    GarryB wrote: Of course not putting missiles along your border would go a long way to lowering tensions and keeping the peace... they are light and highly mobile so you could put them on a plane and fly them to the border easily and quickly enough without the tension created by basing them there in the first place.
    Chinese are suggesting that their S-400 missile batteries placed in Tibet will shoot down the BRAHMOs quite easily.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:Good... that means they are so afraid of it they are planning to attack them before they are launched rather than deal with them as they arrive on target.

    Their obvious problem is that there is a first batch of 40 odd missiles but that will no doubt be followed up with purchases of larger batches so the ability to deal with them before they can be launched will only get harder.

    Ironically designing a truck based launcher that stores the missiles in a standard shipping crate would mean every truck near the Chinese border carrying such a load on its back will make pre-emptive self defence impossible.

    Of course not putting missiles along your border would go a long way to lowering tensions and keeping the peace... they are light and highly mobile so you could put them on a plane and fly them to the border easily and quickly enough without the tension created by basing them there in the first place.

    The key to escalations is don't rush to ratchet up the pressure because it always just costs you more money in the long run.

    I'm not sure peace is possible in the long-term

    China is ratcheting up the pressure on India. Not even with this whole border-dispute thing, that is a sideshow

    The real problem is their support of Pakistan and indirectly, the Taliban movement which can send Islamists into India. So China basically has India surrounded from both sides and this backs them into a corner. It's natural that they're going to want support from the US and to upgrade their air-force and everything else.

    For peace China will have to take the initiative and offer some gestures of good-will. Then we can talk about a triumvirate of Russia-India-China for a multi-polar order in Eurasia, as per Primakov's ideas.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:09 am

    Chinese are suggesting that their S-400 missile batteries placed in Tibet will shoot down the BRAHMOs quite easily.

    Why would you be launching Brahmos missiles into Tibet for?

    Why is China being able to defend itself a threat to India?

    I rather suspect India could build more Brahmos missiles than China has S-400 missiles so that sounds like a good way for India to get China to waste their S-400s in large numbers.

    China is ratcheting up the pressure on India.

    But are they though? China has had a good relationship with Pakistan, but so has the US in the recent past too... does that threaten India... does India see the US as a danger because they fund and support Pakistan?


    The real problem is their support of Pakistan and indirectly, the Taliban movement which can send Islamists into India.

    The core promoter and defender of Islamic nutters is Saudi Arabia and the US bends over backwards to defend them too, yet India is happy to ignore all that.... why?

    If India picks the US as a buddy... ignoring all the bullshit and influence they use around the world to start or create unnecessary wars, including supporting ISIS and terrorists in Syria and Libya trying to overthrow governments the US does not approve of... how difficult is it to expect some time down the track India does something that annoys the US and they let the islamic dogs loose on India too?

    China has no history of using the Taleban to attack anyone... the US uses islamic militants all through africa and the middle east and in Russia and China to destabilise governments they don't approve of... I would say if they can forgive the US then it would be much easier and simpler and more sensible to instead forgive China and completely bypass the whole new cold war and India China rivalry the US wants to create to weaken both parties...

    Within 5 years India will be buying hand me down US ships and aircraft and other items because french and russian systems wont be compatible so they will be spending billions on US handme downs to create a navy for the express purpose of challenging China... and for what... to weaken China economically so the US can continue to dominate the region and the world...

    It is a trap... and the US sailing into Indian waters and demanding they cancel their order for Su30MKI upgrades and S-400 purchases show they really don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and are the last group India should be allying with.

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    Post  Sujoy Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:31 am

    GarryB wrote:The core promoter and defender of Islamic nutters is Saudi Arabia and the US bends over backwards to defend them too, yet India is happy to ignore all that.... why?
    India is cognizant of the role being played by US and Saudi Arabia in nurturing Islamic terrorism. However, as flamming_python correctly pointed out Pakistan's role in promoting and exporting Islamic terrorists into India cannot be discounted.

    GarryB wrote:I would say if they can forgive the US then it would be much easier and simpler and more sensible to instead forgive China.
    But as China proved last year they are willing to invade India at the request of the US.

    GarryB wrote:Within 5 years India will be buying hand me down US ships and aircraft and other items because french and russian systems wont be compatible.
    I'm curious how did you arrive at this figure of 5 years? India has been purchaing Western military hardware even before India started to purchase similar hardware from the Soviet Union. The only difference is U.K has now been replaced by the U.S.

    The recent purchase of the S-400 shows that despite competing offers from the U.S (PAC-3, THAAD), despite the threat of US sanctions, India still went for a Russian system. U.S sanctions hurts India far more than it hurts Russia because Russia primarily exports minerals and there are not too many alternatives to Russia. India primarily exports software, which is a very competitive market.  

    Regardless of its relations with the US, India continues to purchase billions of $$ worth of weapons and oil & gas from Russia.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:46 am

    However, as flamming_python correctly pointed out Pakistan's role in promoting and exporting Islamic terrorists into India cannot be discounted.

    So China is bad for supporting Pakistan because Pakistan is involve with islamic terrorists attacking India...

    But the US is fine for also supporting Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who have already broken Syria and Libya by and Yemen funding islamic terrorists and also Afghanistan multiple times funding islamic nutters with the support of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

    The US also politically and militarily supported chechen terrorists in Russia and is now planning to create a muslim nutter uprising in China.... but China is bad and the US is good.

    The US has a proven record of dominating the entire planet and of using countries against each other to prevent some countries becoming too powerful that they might threaten Americas position as world dominance hegemony.... right now they are using the EU to limit and contain Russia and they are currently using Japan and South Korea and Australia and India against China in an effort to limit and contain China.

    Do you not see part of the strategy is to damage their allies too?

    The EU and India eventually could be just as big a threat to US rule as Russia or China so they are increasing energy costs for the EU and at the same time generating income for their own companies in the process BTW, while with India I am sure a massive naval expansion which will require India to buy a whole lot of old US Navy shit and some new expensive US Navy shit that they will obviously benefit from too... France loses a contract to sell conventional subs to Australia and the UK gains a contract that will likely cost Australia five or six times more than that for SSNs they don't even need... you can bet Australia will end up having to buy other stuff to keep those subs safe in foreign waters...

    But it is up to India which direction to head... remember the US is using you and they know you are using them too but they will get your moneys worth... this is not their first rodeo. They didn't get rich and enormously powerful by accident... and certainly not because they are such nice guys.

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    Post  TMA1 Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:44 am

    I think it would be good for China to soften its stance towards India. I think there are ways of supporting Pakistan without causing further harm. Though I dont think China is supplying the very top notch to Pakistan. I think both sides need to come together. Sadly though I love my country, I would highly suggest foreign powers be wary of ingratiating themselves with America, as it comes with heavy prices. Our hard and soft power and the tools we have developed to enact it are inextricably linked to the ideology of the neolib and neocon hegemons. I would not trust any complex weaponry bought from America these days.

    So I hope India can forge it's own path while they better relations with central and east asian nations.

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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:58 am

    India doesn't have a clear stance. They play without a plan as far as I am concerned.
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    Post  Sujoy Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:30 am

    China has deployed long range HQ-9 SAM system close to the Indian border. In response India has deployed Smerch MLRS and BrahMos LACM.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:03 pm

    Sadly though I love my country, I would highly suggest foreign powers be wary of ingratiating themselves with America, as it comes with heavy prices. Our hard and soft power and the tools we have developed to enact it are inextricably linked to the ideology of the neolib and neocon hegemons. I would not trust any complex weaponry bought from America these days.

    If there were more Americans like you then America might actually be the force for good your leadership pretends to be...

    Money is power and way too much of both corrupts.... sadly Americas foreign policy reflects that... its seems to be more about wielding power or increasing wealth for a few already wealthy people at the expense of everything else...

    China has deployed long range HQ-9 SAM system close to the Indian border. In response India has deployed Smerch MLRS and BrahMos LACM.

    A circular game of mindless escalation that leads to immense waste and stress... all these systems are fully mobile and could be removed or brought back overnight... the actual significance is nothing except the response reduces trust and sets the ball rolling for more escalations and money spending on shit neither side really needs... there are other things both sides could be spending money on.

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    Post  RTN Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:A circular game of mindless escalation that leads to immense waste and stress... all these systems are fully mobile and could be removed or brought back overnight
    Mindless indeed....how is Smerch and Brahmos an answer to China's HQ-9 SAM?

    China also has MLRS deployed and the HQ-9 will shoot down the Brahmos.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:57 am

    India is cognizant of the role being played by US and Saudi Arabia in nurturing Islamic terrorism. However, as flamming_python correctly pointed out Pakistan's role in promoting and exporting Islamic terrorists into India cannot be discounted.

    So what you are saying is that both are dirty bastards, but you are signing agreements and pacts with one while rejecting the other... sounds very short sighted to me.

    If you think China is the enemy and you need big bad untrustworthy America to weaken China, then what you think you are doing the US is doing to you.

    I'm curious how did you arrive at this figure of 5 years? India has been purchaing Western military hardware even before India started to purchase similar hardware from the Soviet Union. The only difference is U.K has now been replaced by the U.S.

    The hard sell has not even started yet... soon they will be pointing to Chinas massive increase in military ship production and might even offer some of its old obsolete aircraft carriers... for which you will obviously have to buy US aircraft to operate from and then of course you will need a dozen expensive cruisers to defend your new old carrier and of course all the support ships you will need for your extended operations in the China sea defending US... oops.... our shared interests...

    India primarily exports software, which is a very competitive market.

    India has more to share than just software, and should be developing its own software rather than pandering to the US market making US software for them.

    The point is that even if you succeed there is no room for India in the western world... just like there is no room for a powerful Russia or a powerful China... at some point using you as a weapon to damage China and Russia the US will decide India is too strong and needs to be stopped... or do you just expect to remain the same?

    I think it would be good for China to soften its stance towards India. I think there are ways of supporting Pakistan without causing further harm. Though I dont think China is supplying the very top notch to Pakistan.

    I think that is part of the problem in strategic thinking... I don't think China see their sales and trade with Pakistan as "supporting" them any differently than they might see all the western products made in China and sent to western countries means they are supporting the west.

    America and the west like to use their money and military power as weapons, but sometimes selling something to a country is just selling them something... Pakistan buys Russian helicopters too.

    Mindless indeed....how is Smerch and Brahmos an answer to China's HQ-9 SAM?

    China also has MLRS deployed and the HQ-9 will shoot down the Brahmos.

    Fire Smerch at the HQ-9 SAMs located near the border till they are running low on SAMs and then fire a few low flying Brahmos missiles to try to take out the launchers and radar and support vehicles... it depends if they deploy a token battery or if they deploy them properly...

    But of course the reverse is true as well, China has a lot more money to piss away on weapons than India does... not that either country should do that.

    I am glad both countries see they have so much money they can waste it on such things.

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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:30 pm

    China has started to deploy S-400 across the border from India. This means Indian Air Force will not be able to operate their fighters from the forward bases.

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    Post  sepheronx Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:37 pm

    Sujoy wrote:China has started to deploy S-400 across the border from India. This means Indian Air Force will not be able to operate their fighters from the forward bases.


    Honestly, if India didn't play the game of sitting on two chairs, then Russia would have been less reliant on China and willing to just sell China advanced systems, or at least would have shown more preference to India.

    India only has itself to blame really in all this mess.

    Now it is up to India to try and negotiate with Russia for better weapons and countering those S-400's. Along with that, India needs to place the systems near the Chinese border, to attempt to force China to negotiations.

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    Post  Broski Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:India only has itself to blame really in all this mess.

    Now it is up to India to try and negotiate with Russia for better weapons and countering those S-400's.  Along with that, India needs to place the systems near the Chinese border, to attempt to force China to negotiations.
    India has always been like that when it comes to Russian armaments, look at the FGFA (Indian Su-57) and how quick they were to abandon it when they realized that Russia had no plans to hand over the blueprints for peanuts (I think they paid $300M total into the project). Watch how fast India orders Su-57's after China buys a few squadrons.

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