Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+44
Tsavo Lion
calripson
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
Karl Haushofer
Krepost
Scorpius
marcellogo
Backman
Eugenio Argentina
SolidarityWithRussia
The-thing-next-door
PhSt
Kiko
higurashihougi
thegopnik
LMFS
Mir
owais.usmani
Broski
Isos
sepheronx
Singular_trafo
Belisarius
Rodion_Romanovic
littlerabbit
GarryB
PapaDragon
ALAMO
Arrow
GunshipDemocracy
lyle6
JohninMK
lancelot
Hole
Firebird
Odin of Ossetia
ucmvulcan
SeigSoloyvov
Arkanghelsk
billybatts91
mnztr
kvs
caveat emptor
franco
48 posters

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 9717
    Points : 9775
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 25, 2024 7:24 pm

    The West will not stop escalating until Putin makes them stop...Quit pussyfooting around and take dramatic action I say!

    A week ago I'd have said the same thing, and was, but with the Oreshnik strike and the reaction it has caused it's clear that we have them where we want them. Nervous. And uncertain. And the instinct of the hardliners may be to threaten and escalate further, but we still have time for some more demonstrations. Provoke some more debate there. This time maybe 2 strikes at once, and much closer to NATO territory.

    GarryB, Airbornewolf, Big_Gazza and billybatts91 like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11169
    Points : 11147
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Hole Mon Nov 25, 2024 9:22 pm

    It smears its image with the global south and dirties its hands
    Most leading politicians in the Global South are realists. They would accept some hard decisions
    taking by Russia regarding the punishment of hard-core Banderite elements and their supporters.

    where the population see that it would be better for them to be in a 'Russian' area
    Already happening. According to some reports there are thousands of "Ukros" moving from more
    western parts closer to the frontlines in the hope they will be "occupied" by the Russian Army in the
    near future.

    They should be thinking over if they really want to break the MTCR.
    Send some long-range missiles to Yemen. Or the anti-western parts of Libya.
    See how the Italians or French feel when some cruise missiles from northern Africa hit
    their cities.

    GarryB, psg, Big_Gazza, kvs, LMFS, lancelot, Mir and Broski like this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 15756
    Points : 15897
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  JohninMK Mon Nov 25, 2024 10:50 pm

    From Martianov, new testemonies (unconfirmed)
    https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2024/11/more-testimonies.html

    We are well aware that the degree of reliability of this information is not absolute, but here is the invoice that is "from there" today: the blow fell on the territory between workshops No. 7 and 8, in the area of turning and blacksmithing industries. All ground-level buildings and structures on this territory have been reduced to rubble, in some places-to small concrete rubble. There are no large craters, there are a dozen holes in the ground with a diameter of about two meters. 

    Eyewitnesses describe the scene as creepy, apocalyptic. Security around the perimeter and on the territory withdraws all means of photo and video recording, even pens and notebooks are taken away. People tell us that "officials" who speak English, Polish, and French constantly arrive at the plant's territory in tightly tinted minibuses. 

    They say that unknown ammunition hit just those underground production facilities that Vladimir Zelensky boasted about, telling about the imminent appearance of some "formidable missile weapons"in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. From the fragmentary conversations of rescuers, it seems that up to the 4th floor there is a zone of continuous destruction, below which rescuers have not yet been able to descend.

    GarryB, flamming_python, Werewolf, Big_Gazza, PapaDragon, LMFS, Hole and like this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 15756
    Points : 15897
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  JohninMK Mon Nov 25, 2024 10:56 pm

    One minute chatting to their mates, the next minute Himmler. Such is life and death.

    GarryB, Firebird, Werewolf, xeno, Big_Gazza, kvs, archangelski and like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5186
    Points : 5182
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  LMFS Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:27 am

    flamming_python wrote:A week ago I'd have said the same thing, and was, but with the Oreshnik strike and the reaction it has caused it's clear that we have them where we want them. Nervous. And uncertain. And the instinct of the hardliners may be to threaten and escalate further, but we still have time for some more demonstrations. Provoke some more debate there. This time maybe 2 strikes at once, and much closer to NATO territory.

    Fair enough. The West will keep provoking and their game is to escalate until Russia does something that will be perceived as excessive by the international community, and that includes the global South. But such measures as Oreshnik force the West to rush back to the drawing board to remake their strategic calculations, give increasingly cold feet to the NATO planers which still have some attachment to reality, slowing the escalation down and making vassal states unruly and, should the escalation reach the point where Russia is actually forced to retaliate against NATO proper, allows to maintain the response conventional, while devastating the interests of their enemies, like by shutting down LNG imports to Europe, expelling US military from Eurasia and so many other options, some of which are so legitimate (helping Syria or Iraq fight US occupation of their territory sounds to me as "humanitarian" as NATO helping 404 against Russia) as the ones claimed by the West. So, Russia wins time for the West to crumble on their own in the first scenario, while it actively contributes to their fall in the second. No matter how this danse macabre develops, you can be sure Russia has the possibilities as thoroughly mapped out as it gets. That is no 100% certainty of a happy ending, but is certainly a far cry from the situation claimed by defeatist amateurs

    GarryB, psg, flamming_python, Big_Gazza, kvs, PapaDragon, JohninMK and like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4964
    Points : 4954
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:01 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 25nov210

    GarryB, franco, kvs, PapaDragon, LMFS, Hole and Mir like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4964
    Points : 4954
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:03 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 25nov211

    GarryB, franco, kvs, PapaDragon, LMFS, Hole and Mir like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4964
    Points : 4954
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:05 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 25nov212

    GarryB, franco, kvs, PapaDragon, LMFS, Hole and Mir like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40729
    Points : 41231
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:10 am

    More ATACM attacks on Russian territory. This time Khalino air base. There was no aviation there anymore.

    When you don't have to pay for them you don't feel any need to get value for money for their use... western countries might wonder what amazing value targets have been hit to drag them into a war with Russia.... but Kiev doesn't care how much they cost and just wants Russia attacking someone else... a bit like Britain when Germany attacked the USSR or Britain when Japan attacked the US and Germany declared war on the Americans.

    You are right, only coercion would push out the woke (svidomite) Ukr trash. But this is a royal pain for Russia. It smears its image with the global south and dirties its hands
    which can come back to work against Russians themselves.

    Reprogramming Ukrainians to become Russians again is not that much different from what Fins and Estonians and Lithuanians and Latvians are currently doing to turn their Russians into nazi natives, or make them want to leave and move to Russia.

    China will certainly understand, their problem with Urgers or whatever they are called is being solved and not via genocide as claimed in the west.

    I agree but the south is the most urgent matter right now. Most Russians and Russian speakers live in the south and it's important to make Banderite Ukraine landlocked permanently.

    They would have no one to blame but themselves, and honestly conditions would be much better for the locals to live under Russian oppression than with HATO bases and nazis in Kiev...

    Cluster Munitions from ATACMS Under Khalino. Apparently the West was not afraid of Oresthink

    They are so brave while the Russian weapons are hitting their proxy force and don't believe Russia would ever target them directly.

    Ironically the only reason Russia would target them directly is if they keep this escalation shit up.

    They have been warned.

    Maybe the Biden estate needs to feel some pain because he is doing this.

    The West will not stop escalating until Putin makes them stop...Quit pussyfooting around and take dramatic action I say!

    If the west wants to send troops that would be fantastic... they need to take direct losses before they will understand their actual position in this.

    I have little doubt given the way the World is that there will be a population move from west to east over the coming years.

    Economic migration is about money and not exactly freedoms, but in this case it could be both...

    Could be just bluster countering Putin's rhetoric, but if I'm Russia why take the risk? Shut these NATO imperialists down before they gather the insane courage to actually follow through with these escalations. If they constantly keep stepping over your supposed "red lines" without any real devastating consequences, they'll smell weakness and keep doing whatever the hell they want...

    I think you guys are being unfair... the west stepped on Putins red lines and he responded like you said he wouldn't. Now western newspapers are claiming all sorts of western escalations and you are demanding immediate action from Putin again... for things that haven't actually happened yet... why do you set the bar so high for Putin and ignore that the western escalations are the problem?

    If the west gives Kiev very long range missiles we have to assume many will be shot down, but that will give Putin a chance to reveal some more secret weapons and capabilities, but honestly I would mostly like to see the Russian army destroy Blackrock investments and Clinton investments and Biden investments and Pelosi investments and Graham investments... and not just in the Ukraine.


    Food for the mindless and brainwashed to gulp down in one big swig.

    So stop accepting it as true and start pointing out the propaganda and misinformation spewing from the west.

    These countries have their own problems. I don't think they want to be used as proxies for foreign wars.

    Cuba is under US sanctions... a bit of conflict and pushback might be of benefit for them... if Trump can rip up old documents maybe Cuba can start with the no nukes on Cuban soil agreement, and perhaps the agreement that allows the US to violate international law with their concentration camp for darkies in Guantanimo Bay... there are two agreements they could rip to pieces to start with.

    Worst case scenario Trump might agree to roll back some sanctions to get nukes out of there and close Guantanimo for good...

    Why not...

    The HATO plan for the Ukraine probably included kicking the Russians out of Sevastopol for good too and making it a HATO naval base...

    What should be done is multi-pronged approach. Completely destroy Ukrainian power system to make lives for Ukrainians miserable and maybe also trigger another wave of refugees to Europe and also hitting directly NATO and Europe. Cut cables, maybe damage Baltic gas pipeline, as well as Norway-UK gas pipeline. Only these type of actions can make them back off or think twice before further escalations.

    So they have to transform themselves into the US...

    kvs, Hole and billybatts91 like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2719
    Points : 2713
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:18 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    We are well aware that the degree of reliability of this information is not absolute, but here is the invoice that is "from there" today: the blow fell on the territory between workshops No. 7 and 8, in the area of turning and blacksmithing industries. All ground-level buildings and structures on this territory have been reduced to rubble, in some places-to small concrete rubble. There are no large craters, there are a dozen holes in the ground with a diameter of about two meters.

    Eyewitnesses describe the scene as creepy, apocalyptic. Security around the perimeter and on the territory withdraws all means of photo and video recording, even pens and notebooks are taken away. People tell us that "officials" who speak English, Polish, and French constantly arrive at the plant's territory in tightly tinted minibuses.

    They say that unknown ammunition hit just those underground production facilities that Vladimir Zelensky boasted about, telling about the imminent appearance of some "formidable missile weapons"in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. From the fragmentary conversations of rescuers, it seems that up to the 4th floor there is a zone of continuous destruction, below which rescuers have not yet been able to descend.
    2 out of 6 are real warheads. The rest are heavy penaids.

    Also points to Kinzhal type penetrators - with hypersonic impacts the hole is at least twice as large as the penetrator itself.

    And yes, they are nuclear.
    billybatts91
    billybatts91


    Posts : 768
    Points : 770
    Join date : 2022-02-23

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  billybatts91 Tue Nov 26, 2024 5:46 am

    A week ago I'd have said the same thing, and was, but with the Oreshnik strike and the reaction it has caused it's clear that we have them where we want them. Nervous. And uncertain. And the instinct of the hardliners may be to threaten and escalate further, but we still have time for some more demonstrations. Provoke some more debate there. This time maybe 2 strikes at once, and much closer to NATO territory.

    You really think that strike had a huge impact? I hope...If Russia does need to retaliate again I hope they hit Lviv and Odessa, like you said, right on NATO's doorsteps...spook em some more....

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 8907
    Points : 9167
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 35
    Location : Canada

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  sepheronx Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:00 am

    NATO keeps playing the game of bluff. But it isn't making them win.

    I am no fan of Russias pussyfooting around, but I admit they are winning so far. But as the US is trying to up the ante and get Russia to react, eventually Russia will have to react. If US or UK or France or nato as a whole gets involved, so be it. But at that point Russia would have to take the gloves off.

    I am unsure on their tactic. Whatever it is, it's working very slowly, giving ample time for the west to react and stir more trouble.

    GarryB likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 9717
    Points : 9775
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  flamming_python Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:15 am

    You really think that strike had a huge impact? I hope...If Russia does need to retaliate again I hope they hit Lviv and Odessa, like you said, right on NATO's doorsteps...spook em some more....

    I do. And you can tell as much by their latest frenzy of absurd threats such as giving Zelensky nukes or conducting a pre-emptive strike on Russia. Completely unworkable, even for them, but it says a lot about how they've lost their nerve.

    It's something they have no answer for. It may take a little more time for all the implications to become apparent to the warmongers though.. give it a bit of time to work its way through their system, and then they'll come to terms with it. There's no bullying Russia either by nuclear or conventional means.
    And also not to be underestimated is its effect on Ukrainian morale. They are being used as a testing ground for a weapon they have zero defense against and that they have virtually no warning of - under the most optimal conditions a US satellite can detect its launch some 7-8 minutes before it impacts its target in the Ukraine and even then they won't know what that target is.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, Broski and billybatts91 like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7652
    Points : 7742
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:40 am

    This is quite interesting info coming from the latest interview that Zalhuzhny gave to the Ukrainian Pravda.

    In October, Russia used 1600 pcs of Geraniums, and 300 missiles of different types.
    In November, the overall number is already bypassing 3000 pcs (interview was given last week).
    We are talking about long range systems only, without tactical.

    Just to get a scale - Raytheon is making 500 pcs of Patriot missiles PER YEAR.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, kvs, PapaDragon, Hole, Mir and Broski like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11622
    Points : 11590
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Isos Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:48 am

    Investing too much on defensive weapons is dumb. They would be better with more su-57, elint plateforms and cheap iskanders to hit directley enemy launchers and hardware instead of trying to intercept missiles.


    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40729
    Points : 41231
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:00 am

    2 out of 6 are real warheads. The rest are heavy penaids.

    Penaids don't make it to the surface and hit the target... penaids distract the air defence or ABM defence and in this case would be completely redundant.


    Also points to Kinzhal type penetrators - with hypersonic impacts the hole is at least twice as large as the penetrator itself.

    Look at a tank... when an APFSDS round hits heavy armour that is hollow it punches a relatively small hole not a lot bigger than the penetrator itself... obviously with a building the holes will be rather larger, but when an ICBM warhead hits the ground... the dummy warheads make craters 15-20m across because of the shockwaves they create where they compress the ground and the soil collapses from the top.

    In this case a hard penetrator penetrating a building is going to rip a hole rather larger than the penetrator because the impact is going to drag material down with it... but not tens of metres. One to two metres of material would cave in with the penetrator as it rips through in a fraction of a second.

    And yes, they are nuclear.

    If they were nuclear the US would be going apeshit that Putin used nukes...

    That would be the excuse Biden is hoping for...

    You really think that strike had a huge impact?

    I honestly do.

    The west is ruled by the war faction, but they don't want a nuclear war with Russia. They think Putin is a rational sensible person who would never commit suicide so they can keep pushing and pushing and eventually he will give up because being a good christian he would never destroy his own country and himself with nuclear war.

    Half are using US news papers.... the media arm of the CIA... they have been throwing out ideas all this time to see how the public and the enemy react to these stupid ideas... the current ideas is HATO troops in Ukraine and returning the nukes to Kiev, and before that it was fasttrack Kiev into HATO so HATO is obliged to protect them... their problem is that HATO will not vote for Kiev to join... Germany does not want war with Russia which is why their Taurus missiles are not going to Kiev.

    The tough guys in the US admin who are fearful of Trump think they can goad Putin into using nukes or something stupid like they do all the time.

    The talk of HATO troops and nuclear weapons for Kiev have both been denied already... so what can they do?

    Kiev will keep trying to turn the heat up, but this attack really hurt them bad... they had things going on there and they are upset about losing them.

    Even if Kiev does something stupid and gets a lucky hit that does real damage for Russia it is now easy... these missiles reach their targets and against specific target types do incredible damage... most of the most important western secret shit in Europe is in bunkers and most are much smaller than that facility that they hit.

    Hitting a bunker complex under Kiev or any European city with 36 separate penetrators will be devastating... and it just requires the missile to be loaded on a truck and fired... no worries about enemy air defence or aircraft locations because they might shoot it down...

    If Kiev hits oil facilities Putin could hit a north sea oil rig belonging to the UK... 30 minute warning to vacate and then smash it...

    I hope...If Russia does need to retaliate again I hope they hit Lviv and Odessa, like you said, right on NATO's doorsteps...spook em some more....

    Putin wants to send a message but he wont murder innocents the way the US does. Like this attack, the target will be military and it will affect Kievs ability to fight this conflict... A US base in Poland that supplies weapons or equipment or repairs vehicles and/or aircraft... 30 minute warning and then boom... and tell them not to hide in the bunkers because that is what you are going to be aiming at. Normally that is stupid because it means they might stop your attack if they know exactly what and whre you are hitting them, but the reality is you could give them a weeks notice and they likely still couldn't stop this weapon.

    And when the politicians realise this how cocky do you think they will be in negotiations?

    Of course Russia doesn't care if they never negotiate... they will finish the job.

    But as the US is trying to up the ante and get Russia to react, eventually Russia will have to react.

    They talk about Putin and all his hundreds of red lines and they call them bluffs that have been ignored... normally when western propaganda talks about things they describe their own behaviour and call it their enemies behaviour... it is the west that bluffs.

    Trump said he would flood the Ukraine with weapons and ammo and money and other aid.... but he wont send troops because what happened to their Leopards and Abrams tanks and bradleys and other super weapons... not talk of F-16s any more... the French talk of troops gets rolled back as fast as it is reported... they are arrogant but not suicidal.

    There is no special force fields around HATO troops that keeps them protected... they have never faced an enemy with air power and artillery capability like Russia.

    I am unsure on their tactic. Whatever it is, it's working very slowly, giving ample time for the west to react and stir more trouble.

    Their tactic? Let the caravans move while the dogs bark.

    They are being used as a testing ground for a weapon they have zero defense against and that they have virtually no warning of - under the most optimal conditions a US satellite can detect its launch some 7-8 minutes before it impacts its target in the Ukraine and even then they won't know what that target is.

    It is a weapon Russia can give them 30 minutes warning for and they still couldn't do anything about it except evacuate.

    flamming_python, Big_Gazza, JohninMK, Hole, Broski and billybatts91 like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40729
    Points : 41231
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:13 am

    Investing too much on defensive weapons is dumb. They would be better with more su-57, elint plateforms and cheap iskanders to hit directley enemy launchers and hardware instead of trying to intercept missiles.

    Which is why western AD is so pathetic... the Americans making 500 Patriots a year... the Russians likely make S-300V, S-400, S-350... any of which are better than any model Patriot in every regard in their thousands per month.

    Spending on defensive weapons is why Kiev is losing... they can't stop Russian attacks and have to mobilise enormous resources just to sneak through an attack that destroys a single S-400 radar... pathetic.

    Fighter aircraft would not be very effective at shooting down drones and cruise missiles... Kiev is proving this every day.

    flamming_python, Big_Gazza, kvs, The-thing-next-door, Hole, Mir and Broski like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7652
    Points : 7742
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:19 am

    One more thing that Zaluzhy mentioned was a catastrophic cost disparity.
    The west can't afford a full scale war, and that is the case.

    This whole thing is being ridiculous. An entire British army can be placed on a football station, and there will be place left for half of the French one to join.
    It is a pure madness. Dead men walking show.

    In September/October, Russkie has dropped about 5000 pcs of flying FABs of different sizes, and that is - again - just one more of the tools they have at their disposal.

    Pistorious cited by Der Spiegel said that Russia is making the number of yearly production of all EU combined in 3 months. Considering that EU

    edit : Anal Julian needs some fisting ...

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Photo366

    He will end up on Mirotvorets list, I am telling ya' Laughing Laughing

    GarryB, Airbornewolf, Big_Gazza, kvs, PapaDragon, LMFS, Hole and like this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 3635
    Points : 3625
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:48 am

    188 Geraniums tonight. That's another record. Very Happy

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, kvs, Hole and Mir like this post

    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 1839
    Points : 1835
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 38

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  owais.usmani Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:50 am

    billybatts91:

    This one is quite puzzling to me.

    1) Over the years from whatever I have read about the fall of Soviet Union and the subsequent years of early 90s, I was under the impression that Ukraine did have few dozen nuclear weapons on its territory as it became independent, but all these weapons were returned to Russia in exchange of writing of loans Ukraine owed to Russia at that time. The launch codes of those bombs were in Moscow so they could not be operationaly deployed anyway. But here New York times is suggesting that those weapons were infact handed over to USA.... Is this true? It would be most shocking if it is.

    2) Even if those bombs were given to USA, what would they have done with bombs the launch codes of which were in Moscow? Best they could do is to dismantle the bombs and take out the fissile material from them. So if US supplies nukes to Ukraine, it would not be Soviet nukes, but it would be American nukes using the Soviet bombs fissile material. In my opinion even that is unlikely as that fissile material would not be stored, but either discarded or reused in American weapons if that is possible. Safe to say that America would just be providing American nukes to Ukraine which would have no connection with any Soviet nukes Ukraine had left over.

    3) Providing nukes to Ukraine would instantly result in 2 things. First it would signal to the whole world that Russia was 100% justified in invading Ukraine as this was the plan of US from the beginning to deploy nukes there targetting Moscow, and second, it would be seen as almost begging Putin to nuke Ukraine, and if he goes ahead, most of the world would be like Putin was left with no other choice.

    4) Putin has shown an almost insane amount of restraint over the past 3 years to not go the nuclear path as the US and allies bulldoze over Russian red lines one after the other. But providing nukes to Ukraine would probably leave Putin with no other choice. Once he does push the nuke button, then the nuclear threashold is broken, and then I am afraid Russia will not stop at Ukraine. I doubt that nukes would fly across the Atlantic, but pretty much all the European bitches can then kiss their ass goodbye.
    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 3635
    Points : 3625
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:56 am

    as under the impression that Ukraine did have few dozen nuclear weapons on its territory as it became independent, but wrote:

    Ukraine had several thousand nuclear devices on its territory. There were 46 RT-23s in the silo alone. Each missile had 10 MIRVs. That's 460 warheads. In addition, SS-19, Kh 55, etc.
    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 1839
    Points : 1835
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 38

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  owais.usmani Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:07 am

    Ok fair enough more than few dozen, maybe few hundred or upto a thousand, although I doubt Ukraine have several thousand nukes on its territory as Soviet Union fell. Probably some one can pull up some old documents from that time which mention the exact numbers.

    But whatever the number Ukraine had, were those weapons really given to US instead of Russia? Really? How drunk can Yeltsin be to even agree to that?
    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 3635
    Points : 3625
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:19 am

    There were several thousand nuclear devices in the Ukrainian SSR. The devices were transferred to Russia and probably disposed of. The US did not take them. There were several very modern RVs like those on the RT-23 in the silo version.

    Just to get a scale - Raytheon is making 500 pcs of Patriot missiles PER YEAR. wrote:

    Geranium alone produced 11k units this year. And that's just Geranium Laughing

    GarryB, Big_Gazza and ALAMO like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7652
    Points : 7742
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:21 am

    It was never an "ukrainian" weapon, and citing this crap just places one as an idiot.

    GarryB, flamming_python, Big_Gazza, PapaDragon, Rodion_Romanovic, The-thing-next-door and Broski like this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 3635
    Points : 3625
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:24 am

    All the institutes and plants producing nuclear weapons were of course on Russian territory. Even if Ukraine had received these weapons, it would not have maintained them. It is known that such weapons must be maintained quite often, tritium must be supplied, plutonium cores must be purified, etc.

    GarryB likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #63

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:44 am