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    Oreshnik missile system (IRBM)

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    Post  Arrow Thu Dec 12, 2024 5:32 pm

    but with 200 Oreshnik missiles Russia could cripple most of NATOs european air power in a single strike. wrote:

    Therefore, there is no point in comparing the current NATO air force and taking it into account. In case of emergency, few planes will be able to take off. About 15 minutes and most of the NATO air force is gone.

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    Post  Arrow Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:39 pm

    Meanwhile, the US finally launched its Dark Eagle IRBM.
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    Post  Arrow Thu Dec 12, 2024 10:35 pm

    I am not questioning whether it is MIRV or not; I am only wondering about the area that can be covered by one missile and its six warheads. As it was an issue with RSD-10, and I have never found how far away can be each target - the sole thing I have found was in regard of modified missiles with new navigation system. Only small note that "covered target area was increased". wrote:

    I'm afraid that this is unverifiable. I've only read that the R-36M2 can disperse its 10 MIRVs or possibly even more because there were options for up to 20 MIRVs with RT-23 charges in an area of ​​about 300K km2. That's half of Ukraine in total. Similarly for MX missiles. I haven't come across any information about Yars.

    In the case of Oreshnik, it's not even known how it flies. It may have many options in the warhead section. It may have, for example, a modular warhead with an independent PBV, like Yars M. This already increases the target distance of the attacked targets through its MIRV. It may have some new HGVs that maneuver along the entire flight trajectory and disperse much further than standard MIRVs. In the case of the standard system, the limitation is the PBV and its fuel resources for maneuvering and sequential launching of the RV. In the case of Orestnik, the last separation of the MIRVs looked like it was done in parallel. Many unknowns.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:07 am

    Western experts say that Russia is capable of producing 25 Oreshniks per year.

    "Western experts" is an oxymoron regarding the matter.
    Pure phantasies about a weapon system that is 2-3 decades more advanced than anything they can produce.

    One more thing - they have a fresh new Maxar photos of the latest Russian missile production facilities - bot not a single one of the Yushmash ... Interesting, isn't it?

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am

    TFW you realize that nuclear weapons are unusable and very much useless... Oreshnik is not particularly useful either but if it keeps nuclear weapons off the table it's a good thing.

    Wow, what a stupid statement Mr Podvig... this system is clearly not nuclear but it is exactly the sort of missile the Russians are using for their nuclear warheads, so there is two critical things that are most important about this new system... the first critical thing is that western defence systems don't seem to be able to defend against it which is important for both nuclear and conventionally armed Russian missiles.... ie they can't be stopped by these expensive fancy US ABM systems they keep talking about will save them during WWIII, and the second critical thing is that the non nuclear version can be used without starting WWIII... which makes them the newest tested long ranged ballistic missile system after the V2 and Scud and ATACMs and Iskander, and like all of those missiles EXCEPT the American ATACMS... the V2 and the Scud and the Iskander and the Hazelnut all seem to be difficult or impossible to intercept by the defenders so far.

    Western experts say that Russia is capable of producing 25 Oreshniks per year.

    The track record of western intelligence is abysmal... Russia has been at war for over three years and has been running out of artillery shells and guns and missiles for a good 2.5 years now... western intel is full of shit.


    Whether the warhead sub-munitions can is the real question

    We saw in the video of the attack that the six payloads were delivered separately and presumably could be scattered rather more widely but that the actual penetrators from each of the 6 MIRVS appear to be deployed in a line based on the shape of the target and didn't randomly scatter in a rough circle of hits around a central point of aim.

    In other words there are six warhead buses and each bus has 6 separate MIRV penetrators that are aimed too rather than 6 buses that randomly scatter 6 warheads around the point of aim like you would to destroy a very large target like a city.

    In this case for instance one of the warhead buses could deal with an enormous target like say London or Paris where one warhead bus would be launched at the city with the six individual warheads impacting around London with a 200Kt payload or something to spread the damage over an enormous area and kill lots and lots of people... so with 6 buses you could target 6 cities with each missile and hit each city with 6 nukes to level them precisely based on the shape and structure of the city and any ports nearby.

    But until we get evidence that they can, it's prudent to assume that they can't, and that they simply land in a pattern around the area targeted, maybe with a size of spread that can be regulated by changing the height at which they are released. Whether you're targeting a bunker with penetrators, or an airfield with cluster munitions - that's pretty much what you would want anyway.

    The impact points for each penetrator seems to be linear and based on the linear shape of the target suggesting a non random impact pattern... which of course would be critical for a kinetic impactor so it hits specific points on the target to do the maximum damage. For a city killer with nuclear warheads such precision is wasted and a large circular random pattern to spread the shock waves would be more effective.


    They keep guessing at how many Russia can produce a month or per year, but they don't say how long Russia has been producing them already for and therefore how large a stock it already has. Maybe they have no idea. And Russia is certainly not volunteering that information

    They definitely have no idea and are likely just very very hopeful...

    They are also so very often wrong that I would not put much faith in their estimates.

    I am not questioning whether it is MIRV or not; I am only wondering about the area that can be covered by one missile and its six warheads.

    It normally depends on whether the payloads are MIRVs or MaRVs... MIRVs tended to have to be delivered rather specifically down the flight path of the missile, so targets up to 180km either side of the missile flight path could be attacked, but MaRVs can spread out after release and attack targets much further afield.

    Of course no sub, say in the Black Sea could hit targets in northern Europe and also in northern Africa with one missiles warheads.

    Normal procedure would be for targets that require multiple hits... like London or Paris that if you are launching 6 missiles in that general direction that the first warhead on each missile would go after London, while the second warhead on each of the 6 missiles would be aimed at Paris, and then the third warhead on each of the missiles might be directed at 3 or 4 ports within range.

    This means if one missile fails you still get 5 hits on target and the target is destroyed... the warheads coming in from different directions which makes it harder to defend against too.

    In any case it gives the Putin an option that is short of armageddon, which I am sure brings him great relief. He is also not the sort to use it recklessly.

    He needs the capacity to give his hysterical enemies a slap without stepping into nuclear warfare.

    Therefore, there is no point in comparing the current NATO air force and taking it into account. In case of emergency, few planes will be able to take off. About 15 minutes and most of the NATO air force is gone.

    And all the eggs in one basket HATO strategy is therefore exposed as being suicidal because that air power was supposed to be used both for attack and for defence... leaving them horribly exposed to Russian air power as small as it is...

    Meanwhile, the US finally launched its Dark Eagle IRBM.

    The difference of course is that Russia has a range of AD systems like S-300V4 (4.5mk/s), S-350 (?), S-400 (4.8km/s) and S-500 (7km/s) and of course Nudel (?) and the ABM systems around Moscow and likely around other large cities in Russia soon too...

    I guess they would use the Iskanders too; Northern Russia has plenty of forested areas for road mobile Oresniks to hide in, & now Finland & Sweden with their F-18s & J-39s turned sitting ducks will deeply regret about joining NATO!

    Probably would not take much to extend the range of the Iskander now the INF treaty has expired... A longer slimmer shaped missile that is simpler and cheaper and more basic... perhaps with one extra stage to make it more efficient in terms of flight range (to get it up and moving before the main engine starts in much the same way the air launched Kinzhal starts its engine at 18km altitude and mach 2.2 flight speed, which extends its range to 2,000km)

    bot not a single one of the Yushmash ... Interesting, isn't it?

    Information is being strictly controlled and the wrong information is dismissed as propaganda...

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:02 am

    Information is being strictly controlled and the wrong information is dismissed as propaganda...

    The water is wet.
    STOP SPREADING PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA YOU RUSSKI TROLL!!
    Laughing Laughing

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    Post  Arrow Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:04 am

    It normally depends on whether the payloads are MIRVs or MaRVs... MIRVs tended to have to be delivered rather specifically down the flight path of the missile, so targets up to 180km either side of the missile flight path could be attacked, but MaRVs can spread out after release and attack targets much further afield. wrote:

    The MaRV cannot disperse after being launched much further. The warhead flies most of the time like a standard MIRV in mid-flight. It maneuvers after entering the atmosphere. The maneuver is intended to increase the accuracy of the RV and confuse ABM defenses. HGV warheads can hit targets separated by much greater distances than the MIRV or MaRV.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 13, 2024 9:46 am

    So what do the Ukrainian intel people think about production rates for Hazelnut?



    The MaRV cannot disperse after being launched much further.

    MaRVs don't use warhead buses, each warhead is a separate guided munition.

    The spread of a MIRV bus is limited because the bus starts with all the MIRVS on it and as it flys along its trajectory to hit at target it does not fly directly over the entire bus with all the warheads needs to manouver to release the MIRV to hit that target.

    It is conceptually like a bomber that can climb or turn left or right and release bombs to fall onto targets but it is a glider rather than a bomber so it can't fly waypoints and to excessive turns because that burns up fuel and speed which is not unlimited.

    If it turns left to release a warhead to hit something off to the left and the next target is off to the right then it needs to turn hard and use a lot of fuel.

    It would not be able to hit targets that are too far apart except by releasing them very early... so turn left... release and then turn right release and then travel 500km each of those munitions can travel quite a distance off the flight path.

    A MaRV is each warhead has its own guidance and propulsion and are released early with not warhead bus carrying them all and directing them all and releasing each one.

    HGV warheads can hit targets separated by much greater distances than the MIRV or MaRV.

    Hypersonic glide vehicles are essentially a type of MaRVs.

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Dec 13, 2024 9:48 am


    25 is outstanding early production rate for something this advanced so if "experts" say it's 25 then reality is even better

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Dec 13, 2024 10:09 am

    This number is taken out of an arse.
    As I said, at the peak of the Cold War, the Soviets—being twice the size of Russia and spending twice the budget on military—were able to produce 5 pcs of RSD-10 monthly.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:14 am

    This number is taken out of an arse. As I said, at the peak of the Cold War, the Soviets—being twice the size of Russia and spending twice the budget on military—were able to produce 5 pcs of RSD-10 monthly. LikeDislike wrote:

    True, but the Soviets spent much more because they had to maintain a 5 million-strong army, the largest nuclear submarine fleet. The nuclear triad of syategic numbered 10,000 warheads. Expansion of the navy. The booming space industry, etc. This consumed huge amounts of resources. Even just maintaining it all. Russia's current defense spending is already impressive. Of course, they are at war and that also consumes a lot of resources. Of course, these missile production numbers are exaggerated.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:37 pm

    MaRVs don't use warhead buses, each warhead is a separate guided munition. wrote:

    No MaRV is a warhead released by a PBV, which maneuvers after entering the atmosphere. However, any type of HGV maneuvers along the entire length of the trajectory. That is why it is such a novelty. A typical MaRV was a warhead designed for the R-36M2. It could maneuver in the atmosphere to avoid ABMs and also increased accuracy. Before entering the atmosphere, it compared the image from the radar with the uploaded terrain map and made a correction. This improves accuracy compared to the standard MIRV. Of course, standard MIRVs are still very good for most surface target missiles. You do not need such accuracy. The MIRV Society carries dozens of decoys in space and some go with them in the atmosphere. There are fewer in the atmosphere, but the flight itself lasts only a minute. There is very little time to react. Besides, currently no one except Russia has atmospheric interceptors against RVs with ICBMs or SLBMs.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:37 am

    No MaRV is a warhead released by a PBV, which maneuvers after entering the atmosphere. However, any type of HGV maneuvers along the entire length of the trajectory. That is why it is such a novelty.

    MaRVs are likely rocket propelled so they should be able to manouver in space and inside the atmosphere.

    HGV are glide vehicles, which suggests they can't manouver outside the atmosphere... unless they are mixed propulsion systems.
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    Post  Arrow Sat Dec 14, 2024 9:03 am

    No. Here is a brief description of the 15F178 warhead, which can be referred to as MaRV.

    "Increasing the combat effectiveness of the missile systems being created as one of the most important parameters has always been the focus of the Yuzhno-Baikal Design Bureau. This task was solved in two directions - the creation of warheads with high-power nuclear charges for single-block and multiple warheads, as well as increasing the accuracy of their delivery to the target. Inertial missile guidance systems at intercontinental flight ranges in terms of guidance accuracy have practically reached their ceiling. It became necessary to "look beyond the horizon" - to look for other, non-traditional ways to significantly increase accuracy. The beginning of the Yuzhno-Baikal Design Bureau's work on guided warheads dates back to the time of the release of the first draft design of the maneuvering unit for the 8K67 missile (head of work V. N. Avtonomov). Then the work grew into the development of the experimental homing warhead 8F678 (the "Mayak" theme). In 1978-1980, four launches of the 8F678 SGCh were carried out on the 15A14 missile. The 15F178 control unit was developed for a mixed-configuration MIRV. The preliminary design of the UBB was completed in 1984. The control unit is made in the form of a biconical body with minimal aerodynamic drag. A deflectable conical stabilizer for pitch and yaw and aerodynamic roll rudders were adopted as executive controls for the UBB flight in the atmospheric section. In flight, a stable position of the unit's center of pressure was ensured with changes in the angle of attack.
    The orientation and stabilization of the UBB outside the atmosphere was provided by a jet thrust power plant operating on liquefied carbon dioxide.
    During work on the standard UBB, a research version of the unit was created to confirm the aerodynamic characteristics by launching along the internal route Kapustin Yar - Balkhash.
    In the period from 1984 to 1987, four launches of research units took place, all with positive results. The launch units were manufactured at PO YMZ, and further production was transferred to the Orenburg Machine-Building Plant.
    The first launch of the UBB 15F178 was conducted on January 9, 1990 in an unguided mode along the internal route. Subsequent flight tests of the UBB were conducted in a controlled mode. Three launches were conducted along the internal route and three launches as part of the 15A18M missile.
    The results of the launches proved the feasibility of creating the UBB and equipping the 15A18M missile with it.
    To continue flight tests, two 15A18M missiles, two 8K65MR carriers and a full set of warheads were prepared. However, after 1991, work on the UBB was closed."

    So orientation and stabilization of the UBB outside the atmosphere was provided by a jet thrust power plant operating on liquefied carbon dioxide.  A deflectable conical stabilizer for pitch and yaw and aerodynamic roll rudders were adopted as executive controls for the UBB flight in the atmospheric.
    Perhaps HGVs could optionally have some sort of rocket propulsion, or some gas jets for steering partly outside the atmosphere, etc. The HGV can maneuver in the atmosphere by bouncing off it. It has a different shape than a standard RV. It's like a mini shuttle.
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    Post  Arrow Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:41 am




    What an idiot. Currently all modern Russian SLBM, IRBM, ICBM missiles have MIRV charges. MRV technology is old and no longer used. Oreshinik may have something much more modern than MIRV. New versions of HGV some MaRV or something else. The idiot thinks that Russia is regressing in missile weapons development.

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:02 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    A misconception. The kinetic energy is contained within the particles of the projectile. Upon impact a hardened penetrator will not magically disperse and convert all its forward momentum into an outward spread like a conventional explosion...
    Well, Well, Well... Embarassed

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    Post  Mir Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:29 pm

    It's an impressive explanation but still...it is not a nuclear device.

    The binding energy in the crystal lattice of metals is approximately twice as large as that released during the explosive oxidation of TNT. At first glance, the explosion should not be much larger than that produced by a conventional explosive — about twice as large. The difference is that the time it takes to release this energy is hundreds of times shorter than during the chemical oxidation reaction in TNT and the energy from it is much more concentrated. Because of this, the destructive power of a Coulomb explosion can be 1000 times greater than that of a conventional explosive. Of course, this is not a nuclear explosion: no atomic nuclei are in any way damaged during this experiment. But it is comparable in its effects, which are much greater than what can be achieved using TNT.


    An equally impressive explosion...but it's not a nuclear device. It's just Space X blowing up...again.  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Dec 17, 2024 7:32 pm

    Its a no-shit sci-fi plasma weapon but made real. A weapon with unparalleled penetrating power and near-nuclear levels of destruction.

    Wonder if you can miniaturize the technology into a tank. You can have subcaliber shells that pierce the target and explode inside with the power of a small FAB. Twisted Evil

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Dec 17, 2024 11:22 pm

    Pardon me for posting the full description... but this is genuinely intriguing. Razz

    Russia's "Oreshnik": not nuclear but atomic

    Take a copper coil, mount it on a shaft and connect both ends to brushes sliding on ring contacts connected to an ammeter. Spin up the coil using a high speed electric motor, then abruptly stop it. At that exact moment, the ammeter will record a short but perfectly detectable pulse of electric current. Where does this current come from, given that there is nothing in this setup that produces an electromotive force?

    The answer is that it comes from electron inertia. In a metal, electrons can be figuratively imagined to form an electron liquid sloshing around between the atomic nuclei of the metal's crystal lattice. When the coil is spun up, they gain speed together with the protons and the neutrons forming the atomic nuclei. Unlike the nuclei, they are not bound to the crystal lattice and can travel some distance by inertia after the object is abruptly stopped. (For those who forgot, inertia is mass times velocity: p=mv.) Since electrons are (negatively) charged, they generate an electric current when they move. This is what the ammeter registers during when the rotation of the coil is stopped.

    It doesn't take much electron motion to produce a large effect. At an electric current density of 10 amperes per square millimeter, the electrons drift through a copper wire at just 1 millimeter per second, but this is sufficient to melt the wire. Now imagine the effect if the speed is not 1 millimeter but 3 kilometers per second (or Mach 10), which is 3000000 times faster, as is the case when the warhead of an Oreshnik missile slams into the ground. Hard to imagine?
    Here is a hint: the metal will explode.

    But that's not all.

    The stability of a metal crystal lattice is preserved by the equilibrium of the Coulomb forces between the positive ions of the atomic nuclei and the surrounding negatively charged "electron liquid" of free electrons. Now imagine that all the free electrons have escaped. What happens to the atomic nuclei of the metal once the force holding them within the crystal structure disappears is that they all begin to repel each other and an explosion occurs.

    Around a century ago it was noticed that when a fast-flying lead bullet or shell hits steel armor, it releases an amount of heat many times greater than the kinetic energy of the projectile (which is half the mass times its velocity squared, E_k=1/2 mv^2) — enough heat to burn a hole right through a steel plate. The reason for this anomaly is the same: electron inertia.
    The binding energy in the crystal lattice of metals is approximately twice as large as that released during the explosive oxidation of TNT. At first glance, the explosion should not be much larger than that produced by a conventional explosive — about twice as large. The difference is that the time it takes to release this energy is hundreds of times shorter than during the chemical oxidation reaction in TNT and the energy from it is much more concentrated. Because of this, the destructive power of a Coulomb explosion can be 1000 times greater than that of a conventional explosive. Of course, this is not a nuclear explosion: no atomic nuclei are in any way damaged during this experiment. But it is comparable in its effects, which are much greater than what can be achieved using TNT.

    For a bit of perspective, consider that 1 kg of uranium-235 can in theory (if every single atom of it undergoes nuclear fission) result in an explosion equivalent to 20 million kg of TNT. In reality, uranium is never enriched to 100% U-235 (anything above 90% is considered weapons-grade) and only a few percent of the U-235 have time to participate in a nuclear chain reaction before the whole contraption blows up. More realistically, a 1 kg nuclear charge is equivalent to about a million kg of TNT (or 1 kiloton). Meanwhile, 1 kg of metal in a Coulomb explosion will release energy equivalent to about a thousand kg of TNT (or 1 tonne). Nevertheless, these are still huge numbers.
    And now we can address the question of what Oreshnik most likely is. Here is what has been publicly announced about it:

    Warhead temperature: 4000ºC
    Speed: Mach 10 (2.5–3 km/s)
    Mass of warhead: ~1.5 tonnes

    Perusing Dmitry Mendeleev's Periodic Table of Elements we find just one candidate for warhead metal: tungsten. It melts at 3422ºC and boils at 5555ºC. Taking the mass of the warhead (which, we assume for the sake of simplicity, consists entirely of a single shaped piece of tungsten) at 1,500 kg, it produces the equivalent of 1,500,000 kg of TNT or 1,5 kilotons — a respectable amount for a small tactical nuke.

    But there is more: unlike a nuke, which explodes prior to impact (or it smashes into little bits and just makes a big mess) and expends only some of its energy on producing a destructive shockwave while much of the rest radiates out as heat, heating the atmosphere, the stratosphere and outer space, the tungsten warhead penetrates the ground to a maximum depth given its momentum (E_k = 1,613 kg of TNT) and only then does it explode, producing the equivalent of a very short highly localized and intense earthquake. The effect at ground zero is that the ground and anything on it or in it is turned to fine dust. This is what was reported to have happened at Uralmash factory near Dniepropetrovsk, which the Russians had used as an Oreshnik test range.

    Thus, Oreshnik is not a nuclear device, since no atomic nuclei are in any way damaged by its operation. It is, however, an atomic device because the basis of its explosive power is not chemistry (oxidation of TNT or some other explosive) but the atomic physics of a Coulomb explosion.

    While this part of the Oreshnik story can be puzzled out based on the available evidence, other parts of it remain enigmatic. Specifically, it remains a well guarded secret how Oreshnik can precisely maneuver its warheads as they approach the target. Another well guarded secret is how the warhead manages to penetrate the atmosphere at Mach 10 without burning up. Nobody else has anything even remotely similar to these two technological advances and the Russian military is unlikely to divulge them any time soon — at least not before coming up with an even more awesome weapon.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:15 pm

    No. Here is a brief description of the 15F178 warhead, which can be referred to as MaRV.

    Did you read that?

    A deflectable conical stabilizer for pitch and yaw and aerodynamic roll rudders were adopted as executive controls for the UBB flight in the atmospheric section.

    So it uses control surfaces... like an aircraft or missile, to manouver inside the atmosphere....

    The orientation and stabilization of the UBB outside the atmosphere was provided by a jet thrust power plant operating on liquefied carbon dioxide.

    And compressed liquified CO2 gas bottles to manouver outside the atmosphere.

    A HGV is a glider so it would use control surfaces to fly or glide through the atmosphere and compressed gas to manouver in space too... the essential difference begin a MaRV is a guided bomb and a glide vehicle is more like a cruise missile optimised for rather more manouvering to evade interception.

    So orientation and stabilization of the UBB outside the atmosphere was provided by a jet thrust power plant operating on liquefied carbon dioxide.

    Not a jet, it is compressed inert gas like a rocket thruster but with inert pressurised gas.

    A jet would suggest combustion with an air breathing engine.

    The HGV can maneuver in the atmosphere by bouncing off it. It has a different shape than a standard RV. It's like a mini shuttle.

    A bit unlikely because as it skips up out of the atmosphere it loses the ability to manouver... a glider requires atmosphere for lift and manouvering.

    thrusters would not be ideal for significant manouvers because of the difference between the mass of the propellant and the overall vehicle.

    The idiot thinks that Russia is regressing in missile weapons development.

    The MRV was actually an efficient way of dealing with a very large area target like a city.

    No level of precision would allow a large city like London to be destroyed with one warhead no matter how big it was.

    However the use of multiple smaller nuclear warheads would massively increase the destruction even if they landed randomly.

    With modern technology being able to target specific locations around a city would be rather more effective and I am sure the Russians would have mathematic models to enable even rather small nuclear warheads to devastate a large target city efficiently with precisely located and timed impacts.

    MRVs would do it, but MIRVS could do it better.

    With kinetic warheads however you need to strike pretty precisely so MaRVs or HGVs would be necessary to get a good effect.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:44 pm

    From MoA today

    The first combat tests of the Oreshnik on Nov 21 turned out to be unexpected for the Americans. They did not collect any interesting information: there were no AWACS in the sky; the insidious Russians chose a moment when the low orbit was free of passing satellites. And no matter how much they dug into the huge holes, they did not find anything except sintered glassy stone and cement rubble.

    So the Pentagon decided to tickle Russians once again and on December 11 launched 6 more ATACMS in Taganrog from the territory of 404. They thought, now Russians will rush to take revenge, hit 404 with Oreshnik - and we can spy on this. And Russians did exactly that: they decided to take revenge and even sent a warning to Pentagon about possible use of ballistic missiles against targets in 404 in the next 48 hours.

    Yankees took it seriously: they scared all embassies in 404 with the arrival of the Oreshnik; scrambled their AWACS (and also British ones) for continuous duty over the Black Sea; all short- and long-range radar stations in the 404, Poland and Romania began to work openly, 24/7; American satellites, burning precious fuel for correction engines began to change orbits to be above scene of events. In general, fuss was serious - even grandiose: the satellite itself costs about a billion dollars, without fuel for correction engines it would simply fall and burn up in the atmosphere. The Americans decided to sacrifice much more for the Oreshnik.

    Russian General Staff did not ignore the fuss - they carefully recorded everything, determined locations of radar stations, recorded their frequencies and other parameters, and remembered which satellites suddenly changed orbits. But Russians did not send Orešnik - they hit exposed positions of the 404 PVO with Gerańs. The 404 energy system, which became defenseless, and other previously secret targets were destroyed by "Kinzhals" and "Kalibres".

    Zelensky began to demand 12 batteries of Patriot AD system from USA. FYI: Pentagon itself has only 14 such batteries. Each of these batteries costs more than a billion dollars (excluding missiles), and Biden allocated the latest military aid package to 404 a measly 500 million dollars. Moreover... Patriot cannot shoot down such fast-flying targets.

    In the meantime Russians are destroying identified air defense facilities in 404 to this day. On December 15, intelligence agencies reported destruction of 4 Patriot launchers in single day.

    It can therefore be said that the (non-)use of Orešnik in 404 was a defeat for USA. We do not know what all the Russian airstrikes destroyed, but two facts are obvious. The Americans themselves confirmed that they lost something valuable, I guess some information gathering center in 404. The second fact is also mentioned above: liquidation of AD system sharply weakened the defense of various objects and they began to be liquidated. Damage to military, as well as protected objects, can reach billions. Not to mention the costs of monitoring possible Orešnik arrival, which were also extremely, unimaginably high. (from telegram)

    Posted by: Passerby | Dec 18 2024 12:33 utc | 341

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:53 pm

    The funny part starts when talking heads are trying to give the numbers.
    No, the US does not have 14 batteries of Patriots.
    They own much more than that.
    Sometimes, a single hint gives you an answer is a whole story worth spending your 2 minutes of life.

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    Post  Arrow Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:01 pm

    There was a discussion about this here once. If I remember correctly, they have over 128 batteries of various versions of Patriot. If I remember correctly, because it slipped my mind. Very Happy
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:13 pm

    Yes, there was a "discussion" because I gave you all the numbers.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:54 am

    New Sentinel photos appeared, dated 14th Dec.

    The interesting thing is, that the roofs lack holes that were visible in the previous photos.

    Magic!

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