MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

Pretty simple for mig, use all the tech used in mig-35 but in a new 5th gen airframe. They already have it since they developed mig-1.44. Keep it cheap.

Or close the company.

The way they are stuck with their dumb old mig-29 is pathetic. Even countries like south korea, Japan or Turkey are developing their 5th gen jets eventhough they have no background developing any plane... meanwhile Mig is going from mig-1.44 to mig-35.

At some point they need to get real. Sukhoi is developing the su-57, S-70 and su-75 to work in a network. Mig-35 has no place in those plans.

I see your own "Goebels Effect" is working perfectly well...on yourself. Good luck mate!

Your alternative view was not convincing... ironic considering it consisted of a photo of a plastic model of a conceptual MiG design.

Looking at the MiG-29 aircraft built shape and comparing it with the first designs Su-27 and then the series Su-27 it is clear the Su-27 changed to become more like the MiG-29.

Country B does not contribute to the development cost of the aircraft, they will get the full price.

That would certainly be logical IMHO.

Profit margins for exported aircraft are larger for Russian MIC than domestic rates which are quite small.

Signing a mig-35 deal is like signing the minsk 3 agreements just axe the fucking program or go develop their own 5th gen, 6th gen and drone products

5th gen fighters are going to take 10 years to develop and put into service, and drones might take even longer before they become useful.

The MiG is a developed aircraft that has been used in service for almost 8 years and has been tested in Syria and in Ukraine.

Your suggestion to just throw that all away is  just bias.

Production of MiG-35s is the cheapest and most viable option and the experience will be useful for MiG to further develop their new 5th gen single engined fighter and twin engined light carrier based fighter aircraft.

This experience will lead to two departments in UAC being able to make stealth fighters instead of just one... and Tupolev is working on stealth bombers...

I would say that was pretty healthy.

Su-75 uses same engines as Su-57

MiG-29 does not

It doesn't use any engines. It can't fly. It is a plywood mockup ATM.

There is nothing to discuss.

So yes, MiG does have a brand new engine called RD-33MKR, obviously upgraded on RD-33MK.

A critical point is that MiG would have ordered an upgraded engine for the MiG-35 that is better suited to the new avionics and systems it will be using, but it will also be wanting a new engine for its new 5th gen light fighters and drones, so Klimov will be working on new generation engines for new generation engines just like Saturn was working on new engines for Flankers and their evolutions.

And 3 months ago Klimov told its customers that they can develop a new engine with 400kgs increased thrust from RD-33MK in Zhuhai airshow in China, I can not find the link at the moment, but I am quite sure about the number 400kgs.

Which would be about 9,400kg thrust... almost 19 tons thrust.

I did mention the AL-41 and the AL-51 in the same sentence and I used the term "more or less" double the output.

AL-41 "slightly less" and AL-51 "slightly more" than double

And yet when China was working on a single engined fighter they rejected the entire line of Al-31/41/51 engines for the lowly RD-33 upgrade.

That is interesting.

Even more interesting that they bought Al-31s for their flankers and were making knockoffs of that engine, yet they decided to go with RD-33s which they don't operate in any of their aircraft for this new cheap light fighter.

Almost like the MiG-29 was designed from the outset to be the cheap light fighter in some sort of high low fighter aircraft arrangement... baffling really...  

PS - If Russia is the launch customer for the Su-75 they will likely pay only 30 million for the fighter.

They said they will test it but they are clearly not funding its development. It makes more sense for the Russian military to operate it because of its commonality with the Su-57, but it needs to be better than the MiG entry which is clearly much smaller and lighter.

Anyway, if they are going to upgrade the RD-33 using technology from th AL-41 (and eventually Al-51) that is only a good thing

Saturn have worked hard to create new technology to add power and performance to their engines, but Klimov have been working  hard too and might have a few technologies that make a difference too.

The key factor with the light 5th gen fighter is not max power no matter what, it is more about fuel efficiency and low operational costs...

Sukhoi are of course much better than any western company in that regard but they are not the best Russian company in that area...

The point is the Indian experience in 2011 with the Mig-35. Both the Zhuk AE and the RD-33MK performed below spec with the result that the Mig-35 was dropped from the MRCA competition.
Since then both the Mig-35 and the Zhuk AESA (as well as the TVC's) found no customers, despite very keen interest from the start. Since then everybody moved onto other fighters including Mig's own M2.

India also decided that Pantsir was not the best light SHORADs system and bought a South Korean system with inferior missiles and a couple of cannon...

The MRCA programme was an attempt to get Dassault to lower their prices for the Rafale... and it failed... announced in 2008 and declared failed in 2015... the Rafale won but it was going to cost 25-30 billion dollars for what they wanted, so they ended up buying 36 aircraft for 8.4 billion.

In the 17 years that has been they could have ordered 400 MiG-29M2s and had them in service already and they could probably have spent an extra 3 billion and bought maybe 100 MiG-35s and given them a complete test out and decided what they wanted and what worked and what didn't work and upgraded their MiG-29M2s to that level and started some joint ventures with Russian companies to make the things it lacked.

As usual the Indias thought they could just buy what they wanted and get local production facilities set up for them and all of a sudden have that technology for themselves.

The French didn't even honour the 50% local investment clause of the contract let alone allow them to build them locally.

Btw - In the MRCA competition of 2011 the Mig-35 was the cheapest option at $38.5 million. It would be interesting to see how much it will be with the new competition - nearly 15 years later.

Export markups are normally about 30% so if they were charging the Indians 38.5 million then that means the cost to make the plane would probably be about 27 million. So the price for the Russian military is going to be about 29 million or so, and the MiG-29M2 is probably 20 million without the expensive AESA radar and cheaper avionics.

More importantly its operational costs will be a fraction of what western aircraft cost... the new ones anyway.

We hear claims for the Gripen about how it is expensive but with low operating costs.

You can never tell until you operate the aircraft and Russia has been operating the MiG-35 for some time now.

Interesting that the Swifts are getting MiG-29SMTs... the MiG haters claimed that was where the MiG-35s were going to get rid of them.

As far as the reason of other customers buying Mig29M2 later, the reason is that they did not want to pay the price for getting MiG-35 and apparently for them the MiG-29M2 was enough. Simple as that.

Plus the fact that the MiG-35 was not a complete mature system yet... they needed to be made and put into service to find bugs and fix problems.

For AESA radars serial production is critical because there is only so much you can calculate in a lab... products like AESA radars are developed in serial production in factories where problems are ironed out and improvements in production lead to lower costs and improved performance and fewer dud rates.

Yes I do understand that everybody else but MiG is crooked and corrupt. We have also been over that point countless of times already.

Ironic considering you claim it is only MiG that are corrupt and are the only company to have ever done anything  wrong.

Still the fact remains that the Mig-35 found no new customers.

The fact remains the Algerians and Egyptians wanted them but they clearly were not ready.

The Russian AF has MiG-35s in service and have been tested in Syria and Ukraine in real conflicts.

From some sources serial production is being set up.

Let's hope that the new competition brings them better luck - or maybe they should learn to bribe better

The extra irony there is very amusing... claiming MiG is corrupt and now accusing them of not being as corrupt as the branches of UAC that win competitions...

A contradiction really.

Seriously ? Some are dumb enough to say take the radar from the su-75 and produce mig-35 with it...

The MiG can be produced in 2025. The Su-75 might not be ready till 2035.

The choice is MiG or nothing.

Get ride of a 5th gen fighter for a 1980s relikt that got anihlated in all its wars.

You say that but with modern missiles a MiG-35 and modern radar should be as good as anything from the west.

The MiG-35 is compatible with the R-37 missiles the Su-35s has been shooting down all sorts of aircraft with in the Ukraine.

From distances where the target probably has no idea what hit them.

Mig-35 is as dead as Mig.

The most capable air defence aircraft of Russia is the MiG-31... it can sink HATO ships from 2,000km away.

And launch AAMs that can kill air targets 400km away because of its speed and altitude advantages over other aircraft that can carry the R-37 which only reaches 300km when fired from lower and slower.

Just produce 250 Su-75 and close that shit called Mig. They are dead anyway.

Then Russia would end up like the west with the F-35... promises made are not promises kept.

The Su-75 hasn't even flown yet.

Fact is that Russian MoD kept downsizing Mig-35 order from discussed 37 to 24 and only bought token amount of 6 at the end, tells a lot about their opinion about the plane and MiGs abilities.

And then a real war happened and they recognised the value of a light fighter...

Those planes were delivered with PESA Zhuk AMD no new orders followed. It's been already 6 years since that order.

The idea of producing some aircraft and then testing them operationally was part of the plan... they got to test them in Syria... where MiG-29M2s would probably have been more sensible because the threats were not great, and in the Ukraine, where the improved capabilities of the MiG-35 were probably appreciated and led to the decision on serial production...

As for MiG-35 appearance in the documentary, cockpit looks same as it looked in 2018 and even person from MiG bureau didn't mention AESA radar.

They probably didn't mention a lot of things.

AESA radars are not made by MiG, so if they are not ready then blaming MiG is just your ignorance.

AESA radar technology can only mature when it enters serial production because it is on the factory floor where the technology gets better and cheaper and more mature... the longer they leave it the longer it will take.

Pretty simple for mig, use all the tech used in mig-35 but in a new 5th gen airframe. They already have it since they developed mig-1.44. Keep it cheap.

Actually the other direction makes more sense.

They have the MiG-35 design. Completing all the systems and putting them into the aircraft with new engines and new generators and new radar and other systems and then putting them into serial production would be step one to getting numbers back into Frontal Aviation.

The next step would be to take the next generation engines and radars and avionics that they have been working on with their light 5th gen fighter and start upgrading a half dozen MiG-35 test aircraft with those systems and components and build a flying prototype of the single engined 5th gen fighter it will be going into.

This should speed up integration and testing and also deliver new systems and technologies to the front line faster.

Experience with the operational MiGs along with work on the MiG-UTS (a single engined aircraft) and the PAK-DP (a type with advanced long range sensors) should all help develop the new light 5th gen fighter bomber, and the twin engined carrier based light fighter.

Or close the company.

They are a department, not a company. The Company is OAK or UAC...

The way they are stuck with their dumb old mig-29 is pathetic. Even countries like south korea, Japan or Turkey are developing their 5th gen jets eventhough they have no background developing any plane... meanwhile Mig is going from mig-1.44 to mig-35.

That is funny... Didn't the Rafale first fly in the late 1980s?

You talk about SK and Turkey and Japan... where is the French 5th gen fighter?

From mid 1986 to 2023 they made less than 260 aircraft.

The Euro 5th gen is Tempest... it is a Typhoon adapted to stealth and with its canards removed...

At some point they need to get real. Sukhoi is developing the su-57, S-70 and su-75 to work in a network. Mig-35 has no place in those plans.

Sukhois plans are irrelevant. The Russian VVS appears to have decided it needs a light fighter... otherwise the Su-75 would not be needed either.

If they want it now then the MIG-35 is the only game in town.[/quote]

So one AESA should need more energy than two RD-33MK can supply? This is unbelievable.

It is very unbelievable.

They have an AESA radar design for the Yak-130... are its engines able to generate more electrical energy than the MiG-29s?

The engines are for a LIFT that does not normally have any radar at all yet it can manage power for an AESA radar and EO pod and wingtip ESM pods... almost like someone is telling lies.

To be clear jet engines generate electricity the same way motor cars do... an alternator is connected to the engine and produces electrical charge while the engine is running.

Alternators connected to the jet engines in an aircraft would do the same thing... often APUs are fitted to the aircraft so the electronics can be run and tested on the ground without needing to start an engine. It would also provide enough electrical current to start both engines quickly if required... being a short range fighter interceptor bomber quick starts would be useful too.

Maybe the engines don't provide enough thrust anymore, ok, you just have to improve.

Power takeoff has nothing at all to do with engine thrust.

The Russian AF was testing a jamming aircraft and it came down to two types... the Tu-22M3 and the Il-76. The Il-76 ended up winning because there was more takeoff electrical power from four 12 ton thrust engines than from two 25 ton thrust engines... The Il-76 also had more internal space for antennas for jammers too.

The Mig-35 has to become a single-seater. Thus, the UPS is saved in weight. Then the radar will have full power for 2-4h and the engines will have full thrust.

Power takeoff is determined by the efficiency and capability of the alternator, not the thrust of the engine.

It has been quite a few years since the Indians claimed it lacked electrical power... plenty of time to upgrade the electrical generation capacity of the system as required.

The level of power require is defined by the energy output potential of the AESA radar and other systems on board the aircraft.

Many aircraft have APUs that can be run in flight to boost available power levels if needed, but most aircraft electrical systems will be adapted to create enough power to run everything without needing to resort to such things.

Pretty clear from this video that the MiG-UTS trainer is in development and working towards first flight...

A cheap light trainer would be popular on an international market with expensive models like the BAe Hawk and the Yak-130... plus a cheap plane that handles nicely and is forgiving of mistakes would be popular as a private jet for those with a bit of money.

Not a lot of information about the MiG-35, but not a lot of information about the PAK DP or 5th gen projects either.

Interesting information about the MiG-29KRs shooting down Storm Shadows aimed at Crimea...

Note also comments about light fighter aircraft communicating with front line troops and sharing information and supporting each other in real time...

They said they thought the South Korean system was the superior system when they didn't buy the Russian system... are you now suggesting that was a ruse to get the Russians to offer a better deal?

Perhaps a repeat of the MiG-35/Rafale debacle... the MiG-35 was probably the only aircraft in the competition that could have met the price demands and they rejected it...

The MiG was their best bet in terms of local production and joint development considering the other aircraft were mature aircraft, while the MiG-35 was a brand new complete upgrade that India could have created a joint venture to further develop the directions they wanted it developed in... but they were fixated with the Rafale and the French knew that and they not only said no to Indian production, they refused the 50% investment in India... they were the worst vendor and still the Indians chase after them...

They already have solution for 4tg generation aircraft shortage, it's called Sukhoi

Mikoyan Mig-35 may be technologically outdated compared to Western aircraft

Western aircraft better than Russian aircraft?

The MiG-35 is essentially a brand new aircraft with all new avionics and systems... what makes you think it is outdated?

Do you think 300km range R-37 missiles and R-77M missiles and R-74 lock on after launch missiles, together with cheap simple dumb bombs with glide kits is somehow inferior to what western aircraft carry?

The west sends a couple of F-16s to Kiev but they don't seem very keen to use them against Russian aircraft and air defence systems...

India paid 8.4 billion US dollars for 36 Rafales... that is about 230 million dollars per aircraft... how could that possibly be value for money?

At about 28 million per MiG-35 for the Russian AF to buy, Russia could get 300 MiG-35s for that sort of money.

Even assuming French claims are true could 36 Rafales defeat 300 MiG-35s?

I doubt it.

Artificial concept of a shortage. 4th gen will be going. No point purchasing more of them. Instead, its better to purchase more Su-57's instead and if they need something cheaper to fly, Su-35. If they need more jets, then purchase more Su-30's and Su-35's. If the Sokol plant is sitting idle, retool it to start working on making more Su-30's or really start working hard for that MiG-31 replacement.

Congrats Seph... 4th gen are over are they.... no point in purchasing them. Better to buy 5th gen fighter, or if they need numbers you suggest two fourth gen fighters... but aren't they over?

The Su-35 and Su-30 are expensive to operate, Su-57 are expensive to operate.... the whole purpose of the MiG-35 is a fraction of the capability at a fraction of the operational costs.

Making more Su-35s and Su-30s just means no money for anything else because their operational costs suck up all the funds...

The 4th gen fighter shortage is about their policy of funding the heavy 4th gen fighters but not the light 4th gen fighters that would supply the numbers needed for decent coverage and fire power on the battlefield.

They have 4th gen heavy fighters in service and heavy 5th gen fighters in serial production but they have neglected the light 4th and 5th gen fighters.

The sensible thing to do is fund production of light 5th gen fighters with the company that will produce the light 5th gen fighter... MiG.

Difference is Garry, is that su30 and su35 are made currently.

They also have T-90 tanks in production... Su30 and Su35 aircraft are already in production and already in use.

The purpose of the MiG-35 is for use in a different role for which the heavy flankers would be too expensive to buy and to operate.

Unlike the MiG35. Someone as astute and smart as you, should know this, right?

Intelligence is not relevant in this case... can you tell me which factories made the MIG-29Ms for Algeria and Egypt, and the MiG-29KRs for India and for Russia, and the MiG-35s for Russia?

What are those factories doing right now? What is their production capacity? What is their current schedule?

Originally they were talking about orders for over 24 MiG-35s... were they going to hand make each one or was the plan for serial production?

The concept of the MiG-35 was numbers light fighter.... it would not make sense to make tiny numbers of them... except as a test batch to test the numbers and performance claims.

They have tested them in Syria and Ukraine and there have been statements about serial production.

That a jet currently made is better than a jet that is almost as equal, that isn't made yet and still requires funding for research and development.

Ignores functionality... they are serial making Tu-214s should they make some extra as light fighters for the Russian AF?

They are probably cheaper than Su-35s and would be cheaper to operate too... but Tu-214s and Su-30s and Su-35s are not light cheap fighters so making them to fill that gap is ignoring the problem.

That costs money that is very limited.

Making MiG-35s instead of Su-30s and Su-35s will SAVE money... it is a lighter aircraft that is cheaper to operate... that was its design purpose.

There currently is no light 5th gen jet from them.

They have been talking about their light fighter project for decades... before Sukhoi even mentioned their Su-75.

There is currently no light jet from Sukhoi either... just plans.

Why waste resources on something that is already being manufactured now.

Why are you not getting it... the Su-30 and Su-35 are heavy fighters... they are F-15s... does the USAF buy only F-15s or does it also have F-16s?

Why does it have F-16s?

Because even the corrupt and spoilt USAF understands that lighter cheaper aircraft allows it to operate greater numbers of aircraft and greater numbers is a good thing.

The US produced the F-22 so why does it need F-35s?

Is 250 million dollars too much for a fighter (F-22)?

$120 million is not a lot better and the operational price of the F-35 makes it all a joke, but for the Russians a lighter cheaper plane makes sense too... even the USAF agrees even if its MIC can't deliver.

The only complaint could be about the internal systems, avionics and radar, but here we do not have good enough information to have a definite answer.

Western superiority in military things seems a bit thin when a comparison in say the Ukraine is used.

The amazing western artillery and missiles and air power does not seem so amazing. Tanks, aircraft, all sorts of things have failed miserably...

Putting the MiG-35 into serial production will put funds into the companies that make components and systems and that money will also be used to further fund development of 5th gen single engined MIGs they will also be working on and provide an air platform that can be used to help test new systems and equipment.

The MiG-35 wont be a super plane and considering where they will be operating a few will get shot down, but experience will make them better and they will kill rather a lot more than they die.

Rafale lovers say that that aircraft while not being a stealth aircraft, has a smaller radar profile than the Mig-35. I do not know about that. Concerning all other characteristics, I have no clue, also because the Rafale has not really been used against a near peer.

If only France would send a dozen Rafales to Kiev to clear the skies of Russian aircraft and help them to victory... but really how much difference would it make?

As I said, the doubt is about the radar, but it is not MiG fault.

Yak have showed an AESA radar for the Yak-130... so the radar makers in Russia are clearly working on that type of radar... the first radars are going to be very very expensive, but as production expands and increases pace the number of faulty modules will decrease and the quality and performance will improve and the physical size will reduce and get cheaper.

The first music CDs were about 32 dollars each to buy here compared with about 20 dollars for audio cassettes. CDs are made of about 20c worth of plastic and are stamped out making production ridiculously cheaper compared with tape or any alternative medium.

Russia has not serial produced large numbers of aircraft based AESA radars but AESA radars are used across its military from helicopters and tanks to ships and now to aircraft...

The idea of the MiG-35 is that it is a numbers aircraft for the light fighter and the light bomber/strike roles... in the Ukraine it could operate from stretches of motorways like the Orcs are using their MiG-29s, and it can use glide bombs as cheap precision attack weapons. Its radar and IRST would be useful for finding targets on or above the battlefield and finding enemy forces... a high resolution radar and IIR view of the battlefield could be transmitted to HQ and ground forces to locate enemy positions and forces including armoured vehicles and mobile enemy forces as well as drones.

Any battle management system is only as good as the quality of the information in the system on the maps and MiG-35s in large numbers flying around the place add data to that map in real time making it more valuable for everyone accessing that information.

Extra aircraft adds extra eyes to find targets but also extra weapons to engage targets... some glide bombs would be useful but longer range weapons like the 40km range Kh-38 missiles could engage targets in the enemy rear as they are spotted and GROM glide bombs and missiles can hit targets deeper behind enemy lines.

Kh-31 anti radiation missiles dealing with any enemy air defence systems too.

When there is only one Su-35 flying around the enemy might be tempted to take a potshot, but with 10 MiG-35s flying around there would be a good chance you get spotted taking that shot and you get destroyed...

Mig-35 production line doesn't exist. Like I said best thing to do for Mig is create a new airframe with internal bays and use all what was created for the mig-35 inside that.

The stuff developed for the mig-35 is quite good actually, EW, radar, engines, russification of fforeign spare parts...

No need for a super stealth thing but something with 0.3-0.4m2. Internal bays also reduce the drag and increase the range compare to external weapons, for the same number of weapon. There is a factor 4 there in play which is huge when planning missions. Those su-35 doing missions in Ukrai e could be based 2 times further away but use the same amount of fuel if they had internal bays. Su-57 is 2 times better in that regard despit being smaller. This is the huge advantage of 5th gen fighters.

The bays should be able to carry 3 r-77M or 2 r-37M or 2 KAB-500 or 2 kh-35. R-73 can be carried externally or not carried at all, as shown in Ukraine dogfights are inexistant anyway.

Mig-35 production line doesn't exist.

You claim.

Like I said best thing to do for Mig is create a new airframe with internal bays and use all what was created for the mig-35 inside that.

The new single engined 5th gen fighter they are developing will not use MiG-35 components, nor will the new twin engined carrier based light 5th gen fighter.

Even the single engined drone likely wont contain MiG-35 components.

The stuff developed for the mig-35 is quite good actually, EW, radar, engines, russification of fforeign spare parts...

The laser system can mark ground targets 20km away for attack weapons to hit... but idiots who don't bother to find out anything about the aircraft think it is from 1988.

This is the huge advantage of 5th gen fighters.

The compromise is a bigger aircraft.... the Su-75 is not that much smaller than the Su-57, and will likely not be smaller than the MiG-35.

The bays should be able to carry 3 r-77M or 2 r-37M or 2 KAB-500 or 2 kh-35. R-73 can be carried externally or not carried at all, as shown in Ukraine dogfights are inexistant anyway.

The R-74 is what they are using now and it is a lock on after launch missile that could be carried internally and used against targets approaching the carrier aircraft from any direction. It could even be carried internally on bombers.

Today marks an important milestone for Mikoyan. So just to set the historical records straight...

Wow... that is amazing... you confirm I am right and the MiG-UTS is a go.

I said they were discussing it in 2018... I didn't say anything had been confirmed then.

The discussion took place in 2018 and the conclusion of that discussion was that they needed a light single engined cheap trainer because the Yak-130 is too expensive to be used on its own. This led to the continued use of the L39 as a light jet trainer but obviously this was not acceptable.

The official statement of their decisions in 2023 is perfectly normal.

Do you think they give official statements before they make decisions?

Exactly. You hit the nail in the head with your sentence. Talking is all they've been doing lately. That and making plastic toy models and also cheating costumers. No wonder nobody takes them seriously.

Except everything they talked about lined up.

In this case they decided they needed a light jet trainer because the Yak-130 is too expensive to be used as the only jet LIFT and the fastest solution for a solid aircraft they could be sure would be cheaper is to take the MiG-AT design and change the two engines for a single engine used in the Yak-130.

They also talked about light 5th gen fighters but decided to leave the light fighter until after the heavy 5th gen fighter was in serial production... the Su-57 is in serial production... so now they will be looking at their options and MiG was going to make the single engined light fighter of the 5th gen so it is not stupid to expect the reason it is not so widely promoted as the Su-75 is because it has funding and will likely be tested against the Su-75 and perhaps something from Yak... which might also explain the EW wingtip pods and EO pod and AESA radar Yak revealed for its Yak-130... they might be from their light 5th gen fighter project and like MiG they will be sharing new technology with their existing types to get added benefit from the development costs.

Only I would have highlighted "decades"..

They are an aircraft design bureau... what else would they be doing?

Sukhoi is likely developing 6th gen fighters right now too.