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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9

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    Post  sepheronx Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:43 pm

    Ok, so things not easily replaceable on current jets.

    So yeah, makes sense yo produce now and in future when everything is ready, just swap production over to newer model.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:01 pm

    lancelot wrote:Su-57M aka Megapolis has several modifications which should make the aircraft cheaper and easier to maintain. Like swapping the hydraulics for electrical actuators. The fuel piping is also more modern and lightweight. It seems to be a pervasive upgrade of the systems in the airframe under the hood.

    They started testing it in 2022.

    And the Izd 30, which will significantly change the capabilities of this wonderful machine. The question is whether the IZD 30 has a variable degree of dual-flow? It's a pity that we know so little about this engine. This is a huge leap for Russian aviation.

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    Post  william.boutros Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:52 pm

    Su-57 needs to be significantly upgraded in terms of engine, radar and stealth. We don’t know the extent of its sensor fusion but they need to be advanced as well as the adversary now operates NATO standard air defense and soon air force.
    The entire back side of the aircraft needs a redesign along with the engine. The front needs to be optimized. The engine heat signature lowered and the radar needs range in a passive mode or they need 2 versions. A stealthier option and a dogfighting option.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:49 am

    I would say the Su-57 as it is now is probably the best in service 5th gen stealth fighter, and not just because it is Russian so the stealth bar is lower because the west has not paid a lot of attention to anti stealth defence or air defence in general, but also because they seem to have made it affordable too.

    They have an order of 76 new aircraft and the rate it is made each year will just determine when that contract is complete.

    The new upgraded version with new engines and lots of changes will be a rather different aircraft which is going to have a different cost so it is going to need a new order and a new contract, or at least the current order modified and updated.

    New components that are ready could be applied as they are ready for serial production.

    It would not be the first aircraft that changed engines and got improved systems and equipment over the life of the aircraft.

    Compare the F-14A with the F-14D model for instance.

    The increased rate of production is a good sign and perhaps suggests some of their worries and fears about stealth and its value might have been sorted out, the US wanted an all stealth fleet, but Russia has never indicated it has such plans even though it does have light 5th gen fighter plans ongoing... at least three aircraft types are being developed.
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    Post  william.boutros Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:21 am

    GarryB wrote:I would say the Su-57 as it is now is probably the best in service 5th gen stealth fighter, and not just because it is Russian so the stealth bar is lower because the west has not paid a lot of attention to anti stealth defence or air defence in general, but also because they seem to have made it affordable too.

    They have an order of 76 new aircraft and the rate it is made each year will just determine when that contract is complete.

    The new upgraded version with new engines and lots of changes will be a rather different aircraft which is going to have a different cost so it is going to need a new order and a new contract, or at least the current order modified and updated.

    New components that are ready could be applied as they are ready for serial production.

    It would not be the first aircraft that changed engines and got improved systems and equipment over the life of the aircraft.

    Compare the F-14A with the F-14D model for instance.

    The increased rate of production is a good sign and perhaps suggests some of their worries and fears about stealth and its value might have been sorted out, the US wanted an all stealth fleet, but Russia has never indicated it has such plans even though it does have light 5th gen fighter plans ongoing... at least three aircraft types are being developed.

    Su-57 was conceived in a different geopolitical climate. Risks are different and a redesign to account for new threats and experiences should be considered.
    Su-34 M is better than Su-34 and suitable for Syria type scenario however with strong air defense Su-34 lacks the stealth to penetrate and the sufficient agility to evade AA missiles.
    That said Su-57 in both strike and dogfighting versions could be a solution.

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    Post  Arrow Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:34 am

    Su-34 M is better than Su-34 and suitable for Syria type scenario however with strong air defense Su-34 lacks the stealth to penetrate and the sufficient agility to evade AA missiles. wrote:

    And how many potential enemies does a strong AD have? NATO AD is very weak and the remains are disposed of in Ukraine.Only aviation is strong.

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    Post  Atmosphere Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:47 am

    The Su-57's stealth design is actually really good, from the back you can clearly see that the pyramid shape of the rear of the cockpit, the planform alignment of the control surfaces, the small size of the vertical stabilizers, and the pyramid shape of the stinger are all made for VLO purposes, plus the advantage of being the flattest fifth gen out there, which has a direct effect on stealth. Only thing missing is the stealth nozzles although keep in mind that serrated nozzles are available even for the current engines if the customer wishes that, as seen when they showcased the export vvariant of the Su-57 with those nozzles, also that'll be rectified with the fifth gen engines for the RuAF.

    By the way, the fact that it has round nozzles does not mean it is less stealthy than other fifth gens because we are not counting all of the advantages it actually has in the back section so seeing which outweighs which is difficult, then there is the fact that RCS difference must be huge to have any impact since range is relative to the fourth root of rcs.

    You just can't assess RCS by eyeballing.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:46 pm

    That said Su-57 in both strike and dogfighting versions could be a solution.

    The Su-57 was designed from the outset to carry internal strike weapons and unlike the US F-22 was from the start intended to be a stealthy striker fully multirole interceptor fighter.

    I would say when the Su-34 was sent to strike targets a dozen Su-57s could fly overwatch and take down SAM sites and enemy aircraft trying to interfere in the Su-34s attack.

    Or in situations of very heavy air defence the Su-57 with S-70 drones armed with the upgraded AS-11 (Kh-58) anti radiation missiles (with folding fins and improved rocket fuel), as well as the upgraded Kh-59MK2 missiles and their box shaped Kh-69 stealthy upgraded cruise missiles could be carried by both platforms internally to strike enemy air defence assets and communications hubs to weaken the air defences, while other aircraft carrying long range AAMs can deal with enemy attempts to use air power to stop them could also operate with the group.

    The need for long range strike with a stealthy airframe is being satisfied by the PAK DA isn't it?

    If its performance is anything like the aircraft it is replacing that means 24 tons payload and 3,000km operational radius... and it is fully stealthy so its flight radius might be rather bigger because it can fly at altitude all the way.
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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:48 pm

    Atmosphere wrote:Only thing missing is the stealth nozzles although keep in mind that serrated nozzles are available even for the current engines if the customer wishes that, as seen when they showcased the export variant of the Su-57 with those nozzles, also that'll be rectified with the fifth gen engines for the RuAF.

    Are you saying there was an export variant of the entire aircraft with the 5th gen. serrated nozzles engines already mounted on the aircraft on display somewhere?

    If so, could you post a picture of that cuz gadang how the hell could I have missed that? Or am I misunderstanding you and you're to the just engine itself only?
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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:25 pm

    @Gomig-21 Smile

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Su57-a10

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:28 pm

    Thats the 7th T-50 development unit, fitted with the early engines, not a serial Su-57.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:33 pm

    Well NGAD got cancelled, so SU57 and J20 are sole contenders for 6th gen

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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:53 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Thats the 7th T-50 development unit, fitted with the early engines, not a serial Su-57.

    Are you sure about the engines though? It does look like the AL-51 to me? Compare that with the single test engine on 052.
    The caption says: Истребитель Су-57 с двигателями второго этапа (изделие-30)

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Su57-a11

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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:19 pm

    I see now 057 was actually presented as the Su-57E with the AL-51 engines.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 057-ca10

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:26 pm

    Mir wrote:@Gomig-21  Smile

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Su57-a10

    Ah, yes yes yes this one below now rings a bell because I remember how they were testing a single engine on the prototype and the only pic I saw of it was when it was in flight, this one here: 

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 9c333b88c7d64c4908d03daf3fc3ce73

    But the closeup in the pic above with both engines fitted in I must admit I hadn't seen that one! Son of a bitch wow that's great.  Now I'm even more eager to see these dang things in full production dammit!

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Su57-a11

    So 052 tested a single engine and 057 got the pair tested, do we know what the status of 057 is presently?  Is it still flying with both new engines or they've removed them or we don't know?

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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:38 pm

    @Gomig-21

    Here it is in full glory with the new engines - just censored beautiful!

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Su57-010

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:57 pm

    Mir wrote:@Gomig-21

    Here it is in full glory with the new engines - just censored beautiful!

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Su57-010

    WOW!!!
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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:02 pm

    Interesting comparison of what I presume will be the Su-57M and the F-22

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 Fasu5710

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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:05 pm

    AND another sore point - the Su-57 can operate in adverse weather conditions Smile

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 6 0_1_e110

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    Post  PhSt Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:37 am


    Here it is in full glory with the new engines

    when is the test flight with the complete engine package. I hope these planes are stored in protected sites, I'm sure NATzO will not let an opportunity pass to target and destroy these planes for Propaganda points.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:42 am

    Su-57 was conceived in a different geopolitical climate. Risks are different and a redesign to account for new threats and experiences should be considered.

    I would say the Su-57 was designed to try to deal with a Russian air defence system. That is why Kinzhal and Iskander and even their cruise missiles tend to hit their targets, because they have on board sensors and jammers and decoys to defeat air defences. They don't need it for use against western air defences, so they clearly designed it to penetrate their own defences... defenses that will be improved to deal with such features making them even more capable of stopping western attack platforms and weapons.

    Su-34 M is better than Su-34 and suitable for Syria type scenario however with strong air defense Su-34 lacks the stealth to penetrate and the sufficient agility to evade AA missiles.

    There is nothing wrong with the Su-34, they are just making improvements and developing tactics to make it effective. It has been heavily used and yes a few have been lost... but this is war... do you think you can fight HATO and not lose anything at all?

    And how many potential enemies does a strong AD have? NATO AD is very weak and the remains are disposed of in Ukraine.Only aviation is strong.

    Strong or weak does not really matter... strong means there is a network to take down, weak does not mean you are safe... they could develop a SAM system for the weak... it has passive sensors and a single SAM so you hide it and it listens passively or gets target information from another active platform and it takes a single shot at the target... it might hit or it might miss but it just gets one shot and it wont matter if the enemy then obliterates the square kilometre around where the SAM was launched there is now nothing there to hit.

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    Post  william.boutros Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    That said Su-57 in both strike and dogfighting versions could be a solution.

    The Su-57 was designed from the outset to carry internal strike weapons and unlike the US F-22 was from the start intended to be a stealthy striker fully multirole interceptor fighter.

    I would say when the Su-34 was sent to strike targets a dozen Su-57s could fly overwatch and take down SAM sites and enemy aircraft trying to interfere in the Su-34s attack.

    Or in situations of very heavy air defence the Su-57 with S-70 drones armed with the upgraded AS-11 (Kh-58) anti radiation missiles (with folding fins and improved rocket fuel), as well as the upgraded Kh-59MK2 missiles and their box shaped Kh-69 stealthy upgraded cruise missiles could be carried by both platforms internally to strike enemy air defence assets and communications hubs to weaken the air defences, while other aircraft carrying long range AAMs can deal with enemy attempts to use air power to stop them could also operate with the group.

    The need for long range strike with a stealthy airframe is being satisfied by the PAK DA isn't it?

    If its performance is anything like the aircraft it is replacing that means 24 tons payload and 3,000km operational radius... and it is fully stealthy so its flight radius might be rather bigger because it can fly at altitude all the way.

    Would you want to fly a PAK-DA over Ukraine for routine bombing missions. There are no big enough target for PAK-DAs payload and it is risky for routine flights.
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    Post  william.boutros Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:02 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Su-57 was conceived in a different geopolitical climate. Risks are different and a redesign to account for new threats and experiences should be considered.

    I would say the Su-57 was designed to try to deal with a Russian air defence system. That is why Kinzhal and Iskander and even their cruise missiles tend to hit their targets, because they have on board sensors and jammers and decoys to defeat air defences. They don't need it for use against western air defences, so they clearly designed it to penetrate their own defences... defenses that will be improved to deal with such features making them even more capable of stopping western attack platforms and weapons.

    Su-34 M is better than Su-34 and suitable for Syria type scenario however with strong air defense Su-34 lacks the stealth to penetrate and the sufficient agility to evade AA missiles.

    There is nothing wrong with the Su-34, they are just making improvements and developing tactics to make it effective. It has been heavily used and yes a few have been lost... but this is war... do you think you can fight HATO and not lose anything at all?

    And how many potential enemies does a strong AD have? NATO AD is very weak and the remains are disposed of in Ukraine.Only aviation is strong.

    Strong or weak does not really matter... strong means there is a network to take down, weak does not mean you are safe... they could develop a SAM system for the weak... it has passive sensors and a single SAM so you hide it and it listens passively or gets target information from another active platform and it takes a single shot at the target... it might hit or it might miss but it just gets one shot and it wont matter if the enemy then obliterates the square kilometre around where the SAM was launched there is now nothing there to hit.


    This is not a thread for Su-34. The upgraded Su-34 is a big improvement yes but there are no deep strikes inside Ukraine using the airforce. Su-34 can be seen by radars and is using standoff munitions to engage targets.
    An aircraft capable of penetrating airspace and striking a well defended environment is needed for the SMO.
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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:13 am

    william.boutros wrote:
    Would you want to fly a PAK-DA over Ukraine for routine bombing missions. There are no big enough target for PAK-DAs payload and it is risky for routine flights.

    The PAK-DA will primarily be a missile carrier. A hypersonic missile carrier at that with huge standoff range. It's not a B-2 copy with a bomb load.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:32 am

    william.boutros wrote:An aircraft capable of penetrating airspace and striking a well defended environment is needed for the SMO.
    If anything I think they need to speed up the development of the strike drone program.

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