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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:32 am

    It used to be part of Die Gruene formal position for at least a decade.
    Then they collaborated in every war the US started.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:38 am

    Yeah but Gary, come on, calling someone a fucking retard and everyone else fucking niggers might be juuuuuuuuuuuust a little bit over the top. But hey, if you're ok with that, then I hope you're ok with someone replying in kind. Problem with that is then a great forum become a clusterfuck of gumbalufguf, if you know what I mean. Anyhoo...

    We are all adults here and we have a complaints based system... being fooled by Kievs propaganda and loosing your panties and being called a faggot for it... I rather suspect when we find out it is Kievs propaganda we accept the crown of being a faggot and understand we were wrong.

    The amusing thing is that when I do get complaints and I check up the history of the relationship between the two protagonists that often it has been going of for some time and that each has been abusing the other for quite some time... do I ban them both?

    For some a friend and an ally is someone who will defend what you say and who you are no matter who wrong it is, well that is stupid... when your friend is being stupid you don't back him up, you tell him he is wrong and to pull his head in before it gets knocked off... the good friend gives good advice... it keeps you out of jail.

    Some people wont listen to the voice of reason either.

    The people who never abuse anyone else are never abused for their views.

    Then people will be wondering what ghost penetrated their airspace undetected under their noses and created that much damage and watch how freaked out they'll be. More importantly, the benefit that would give the Su-57. What a perfect opportunity.

    Or is it a trap and that is what they are hoping for.

    Some people don't like to lose anything at all and will take no risks. Others will say that the Su-57 would fly such missions... that is what they are designed for, so flying a few of them to within Kh-69 range to take out those airfields and any other aircraft nearby that might also be used to attack Russia or Ukraine might be a valuable learning experience... just don't puss out if a lone Patriot battery hiding with everything turned off in the middle of the Ukraine waiting for the signal from HATO intel that the planes are coming past soon gets a lucky hit as they head back to base.

    Most of the banter between adult males where I come from is derogatory so you have to be a bit thick skinned about things.

    Anyone can say I am wrong and what I say is stupid (especially if it is wrong), but beware that personal attacks on admin and staff (ie me and George) wont be treated like light banter... I am not paid to do this and if I think this is all a waste of time I do have an off switch as well as ban switch that goes from 1 day to forever.


    I think everyone could see there wasn't any damage to the aircraft, even though it was hard to tell for sure. But there was something weird about the mesh netting. And why just that one parking spot like you said?

    As Mir points out above, modern fighter planes have chemical coatings and are sheet metal and have fuel tanks inside them that are highly flammable... something like a helicopter made of Titanium might leave a shell if it is burned like a Hind, but when it is aluminium framed like a Hip they normally burn to a pile of ash.

    In the jet era the quest for more speed coincided with the swept angle of the wing - so yes it does play a critical part in the ability to fly at supersonic speed.

    Which is ironic because the first officially supersonic plane had a straight wing but of course it was rocket powered and not very practical for anything but breaking the speed barrier. The F-104 has an almost straight wing too, but it is a rather small wing.

    I doubt they'll risk losing some Su-57s & pilots, or any other planes for that matter, in such a raid; the Iskanders from Crimea & Calibers from ships/subs, besides ALCMs/Kinzhals can do it better & for a lot le$$.

    There is that as well... the payoff of a successful attack by stealth fighters is offset by the risk of losing any of them, plus the fact that HATO air defences don't seem to be that amazing so launching some Vulkans or Granits from old stocks would be a good way of using up old weapons to hit targets you want to hit.

    Regarding the Su-57 wing, its leading edge surfaces and the levicons mean you can make the wing profile very thin and very low drag, yet for takeoff and landing you can drop those surfaces down to give a curved high lift profile to low speed flight and very high speed flight.

    It is a very clever combination that effectively changes the lift and drag profile of the wing and body surface in terms of lifting performance.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:07 am

    ALAMO wrote:There is only one thing that really bothers me, and that is a fact that castration of Europe continuous.
    Having two great platforms to start with - EF and Rafale - they have bend over and procured shitty F-35 instead of a common Eurofighter 2.0 or something.
    Operating much more capable planes for two decades, they have backward only to please their overseas masters.
    It is sick.
    The Eurofighter had several programs which, had they been funded properly, would have improved the aircraft.
    They had a TVC engine in development. They had a higher power engine in development. They had AESA radar and IRST in development. The AESA radar and IRST only entered service thanks to Qatar paying for it recently and it seems to be subpar. Probably because of underinvestment in the control software.

    Rafale seems to have much less issues in comparison. They added the AESA radar early on in development. Contrary to the one in the Eurofighter it seems to be full featured. And the French regularly upgrade all their older fighters to the latest modification.

    Most Eurofighters are still using a phased array radar. And need I remind you that the original processor used in the Eurofighter was a Motorola 68020? Basically a 10 MIPS or worse 32-bit processor. It is that outdated electronically.

    Hundreds of Eurofighters will never be upgraded. You have a great airframe with avionics designed from the 1990s using chips from the 1980s. Electronically it is behind the MiG-29SMT.

    The Super Hornet was designed only a little after the Eurofighter and has way more advanced avionics. The French were smart enough to see the problem and do a large scale upgrade to all existing fighters to modernize theirs.


    Last edited by lancelot on Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:10 am

    It does not change the fact, that it carries Meteor and Taurus, which already outperforms the other western types, right? Laughing
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:16 am

    ALAMO wrote:It does not change the fact, that it carries Meteor and Taurus, which already outperforms the other western types, right? Laughing
    Taurus is another example of duplication of effort in European procurement. Basically the same as Storm Shadow.
    Storm Shadow at least uses a French i.e. European turbine engine. Taurus uses a US turbine engine. It is another example of Germany's continued vassalage to the US.

    The Meteor is a good missile. But most countries in Europe are now buying the F-35 and can't carry it internally. It won't physically fit.

    Remember this next time someone says the German economy is larger than the Russian one. The Germans can't even make their own goddamned micro turbine for a cruise missile.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:19 am

    The Meteor is a good missile. But most countries in Europe are now buying the F-35 and can't carry it internally. It won't physically fit. wrote:

    Meanwhile, the Su-57 can carry modifications of the R-37M in internal compartments? Smile
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:20 am

    Yes, and that was more or less my point.
    Europe owns redundant MIC that can supply top-notch pieces of ordnance.
    It is shitty politics that makes it idiotic, not the complex itself.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:27 am

    Arrow wrote:

    Meanwhile, the Su-57 can carry modifications of the R-37M in internal compartments? Smile

    It carries Izd-810.  That's basically R-37 designed for internal carriage.

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    Post  william.boutros Sat Jun 15, 2024 3:45 am

    It was stated that this year Su57 deliveries will happen with Stage 2 Engine and in increased quantities. Any news about any Su 57 delivery or the new engine?
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    Post  Isos Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:03 am

    With such a huge range it doesn't need an internal r-37M. It will be launched at more than 200km away from the target so the impact on the stealth is quite low.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:16 am

    They said they were pausing the development of the long range ramjet powered R-77 so the upgraded rocket powered model could be rushed into service faster... I suspect with the upgraded rocket powered R-77 now in service they will go back to the jet powered R-77... perhaps even transferring from a ramjet powered version to a scramjet powered model.

    The scramjet and ramjet would not be completely different designs a bit like the difference between a turbo fan and a turbo jet engine really, but the flight performance difference would be dramatic with all the same issues.

    Plasma engine ignition should allow engine restarts across a range of altitudes and flight speeds, and flying rather faster for a similar period of time should allow a significant improvement in performance.

    AAMs moving at mach 9 plus would be impossible to dodge... 1 second before impact they would be about 3km away...

    I heard rumours they were going to upgrade the Kh-31 to scramjet propulsion too... that would make it a rather interesting weapon... if high accuracy could be achieved it would be rather potent against air and ground targets... and for a missile in the 600-800kg weight range could be carried by most fighter aircraft quite easily.

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    Post  Atmosphere Sat Jun 15, 2024 7:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:They said they were pausing the development of the long range ramjet powered R-77 so the upgraded rocket powered model could be rushed into service faster... I suspect with the upgraded rocket powered R-77 now in service they will go back to the jet powered R-77... perhaps even transferring from a ramjet powered version to a scramjet powered model.

    The scramjet and ramjet would not be completely different designs a bit like the difference between a turbo fan and a turbo jet engine really, but the flight performance difference would be dramatic with all the same issues.

    Plasma engine ignition should allow engine restarts across a range of altitudes and flight speeds, and flying rather faster for a similar period of time should allow a significant improvement in performance.

    AAMs moving at mach 9 plus would be impossible to dodge... 1 second before impact they would be about 3km away...

    I heard rumours they were going to upgrade the Kh-31 to scramjet propulsion too... that would make it a rather interesting weapon... if high accuracy could be achieved it would be rather potent against air and ground targets... and for a missile in the 600-800kg weight range could be carried by most fighter aircraft quite easily.

    I heared rumors that Izdeliye 180 is infact a scramjet powered AAM designed to maintain mach 5+ during the terminal phase to be very difficult to evade even at long range.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 15, 2024 11:29 pm

    From a PiBu Russias air launched weapons from 2017 it mentions the K-77M as the Izd180 using a solid rocket engine, but mentions a Izd180PD version that uses a ramjet engine.

    He mentions a project izd 270 to replace the medium and extended range K-77M type missiles, for which no information is known.
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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Jun 16, 2024 12:37 am

    Isos wrote:With such a huge range it doesn't need an internal r-37M. It will be launched at more than 200km away from the target so the impact on the stealth is quite low.

    Might as well just use any other aircraft then, since you would still be stuck with the pylon(s), so why even use the Su-57.  Might as well make it fit in the bays so your 100% mission capable.  Or have disposable pylons.  lol1
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    Post  Isos Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:18 am

    Gomig-21 wrote:
    Isos wrote:With such a huge range it doesn't need an internal r-37M. It will be launched at more than 200km away from the target so the impact on the stealth is quite low.

    Might as well just use any other aircraft then, since you would still be stuck with the pylon(s), so why even use the Su-57.  Might as well make it fit in the bays so your 100% mission capable.  Or have disposable pylons.  lol1

    It is the current goal, to have all missiles usable by any jet. With data link a su-57 could control a r-37M launch by a su-35 also.

    Since the long range missiles are the ones used first, you can get ride of external r-37Ms more than 200km away and then be stealthy with internal bays full of r-77M.

    They wouldn't have give it external weapon pylons if they meant to use only internal ones. Su-57 carries only 50% of its weapon internally btw.
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    Post  Isos Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:29 am

    AAMs moving at mach 9 plus would be impossible to dodge... 1 second before impact they would be about 3km away...

    Quite useless to have it a mach 9. The radar inside won't follow. It's hard to dodge a fast missile but it's not easy for the missile to touch a target too. It will do 1 km before the wings start correcting the flight path once radar send info if it manage to detect the target. Even ground based radars have hard time locking on very fast targets, let alone a small radar with 10km range inboard a missile.
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    Post  Atmosphere Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:From a PiBu Russias air launched weapons from 2017 it mentions the K-77M as the Izd180 using a solid rocket engine, but mentions a Izd180PD version that uses a ramjet engine.

    He mentions a project izd  270 to replace the medium and extended range K-77M type missiles, for which no information is known.

    The rumor i heared basically implies that the internet mistakes izd180 for R-77M, whilr its actual name is izd 170M. Meanwhile, izd 180 is a scramjet powered missile with an AESA seeker, and four square intakes. It's still a rumor though, KTRV is one of the most secretive russian corporations in terms of their products.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 16, 2024 10:32 pm

    Quite useless to have it a mach 9. The radar inside won't follow. It's hard to dodge a fast missile but it's not easy for the missile to touch a target too.

    Heavy Russian missiles have long had warheads with special warhead options... in fact a missile moving a mach 9+ doesn't need a powerful explosive in its warhead... a centreline column of HE surrounded by a column of cubes and odd shaped fragments would be all you would need... from 3km away the radar on the missile tracking the target with active radar tracking will know exactly where the aircraft will be in 1 seconds time and it can fly through that point in space... it can calculate a time to set off the warhead to scatter 60kgs of metal cubes and fragments so that the cone of fragments will fill a large area around where the Air to Air missile passes as it approaches the expected position of the target, which will be shredded by the passing of metal fragments moving three times faster than a high velocity rifle bullet.

    If an AAM flying at mach 9 can't hit a subsonic or supersonic flying target then how do you think a mach 7 plus S-400 can hit a ballistic target moving at 4.8km/s... which is mach 15 BTW.

    Explosive fragmentation warheads have traditionally been used to hit manouverable targets without getting direct contact with the target.

    The manouver limit on the target in the 1 second it has before impact limits how far from the calculated point of impact it can be and the difference is not big even with the most manouverable target.

    It will do 1 km before the wings start correcting the flight path once radar send info if it manage to detect the target.

    The radar in the incoming missile wont start tracking the target 1 second before impact... it will have been tracking the target for a while and determined the interception point carefully and continuously until impact or near flypast.

    Even ground based radars have hard time locking on very fast targets, let alone a small radar with 10km range inboard a missile.

    A radar mounted on a missile that moves at 3km/s would anticipate all targets to be fast moving relative to itself.... including stationary ground based objects.

    The rumor i heared basically implies that the internet mistakes izd180 for R-77M, whilr its actual name is izd 170M. Meanwhile, izd 180 is a scramjet powered missile with an AESA seeker, and four square intakes. It's still a rumor though, KTRV is one of the most secretive russian corporations in terms of their products.

    Yes, it is rather unusual for the K-77 to be izd 170 and the K-77M to be a different number, and that could be a mistake, but the heritage of the missile has to be taken into account because the first missiles, also called R-77 and RVV-AE... the former being Soviet domestic and the latter being for export... the RVV-AE are izd190 it seems according to PiBu... With the breakup of the Soviet Union the production was moved to Moscow and the vast majority of missiles were the latter export missiles of which the Russians bought a few batches... by 2006 about the only inservice fighters that could even use the R-77 were late model Su-25T and TMs and MiG-29SM aircraft so they didn't need thousands of missiles anyway.

    The R-77-1 is described as the izd170-1 and a couple were made in 2004 for testing on Su-30SM but the aircraft were not ready. In 2010 they successfully test launched them from Su-27SM3 aircraft and the missile entered production. The RVV-SD is this missile for export.

    The K-77M is described as a second stage upgrade of the R-77 missile optimised for internal carriage.

    As I mentioned above this information is from 2017 when this PiBu book was published.

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    Post  xeno Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:57 pm

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9 - Page 5 W7euer10

    Vladimir Gutenev, Chairman of the State Duma Committee on Industry and Trade and First Vice-President of the Russian Engineering Union:
    24 Su-57 will be produced as per plan this year
    Stolen from paralay
    Let's see whether this will happen or not.

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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:54 am

    If this is true then they changed the plan and are likely mass producing the original Su-57 design instead of waiting for the Su-57M variant to be complete.
    I think it makes a lot more sense than continuing to build more Su-35s which would be less useful in case of actual direct conflict against NATO.

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    Post  sepheronx Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:09 am

    Unfortunately we won't know if it happens or not as due to secrecy of information. All we will get is some info trickled and that's it.

    But I agree with Lancelot, this should be mass produced even in its current form rather than waiting for the upgrade.

    Besides engines, what else does the upgrade consist of? GaN instead of GaAS modules? My understanding they swapped to GaN before mass production was even announced. Maybe stronger modules rather than the 30W I suppose.

    But what else?

    So instead, it's already superior to Su-35 so it only makes sense to mass produce it. In future when the upgrade is ready, start producing that and slowly upgrade current models. Or have the base model just replace most other of the older jets. In which can be donated to nations like Syria and North Korea.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:13 am

    The production of upgraded version of Su-57 fighter may still start in 2025, as allegedly planned back in 2021: https://tass.com/defense/1323823
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    Post  TMA1 Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:20 am

    Was hoping to see it with the second stage engine this year. There was some discussion that the second batch would have izd30. Damn they at least need to show off the new units soon.

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    Post  Mir Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:31 am

    TMA1 wrote:Was hoping to see it with the second stage engine this year. There was some discussion that the second batch would have izd30. Damn they at least need to show off the new units soon.

    The statement above does not mention the Su-57M per se - but that doesn't mean anything. I think the engine is ready for production right now.

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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:27 am

    Su-57M aka Megapolis has several modifications which should make the aircraft cheaper and easier to maintain. Like swapping the hydraulics for electrical actuators. The fuel piping is also more modern and lightweight. It seems to be a pervasive upgrade of the systems in the airframe under the hood.

    They started testing it in 2022.

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