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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:26 pm

    Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Well, they could declare war, mobilize a million people and tacnuke anything even remotely resembling an airfield in Ukraine.

    Had they been the U.S. they would at the very least have leveled Kiev by now with conventional weaponry.

    To date, they have attacked the airfields countless times, but these Soviet planes are rugged as hell, and each time an attack is on its way they take off to stay clear. Then they can land almost anywhere, not to mention that airfields are everywhere too.

    In short, to deal with the menace it's either nukes or all-in invasion with all available assets, loads of fighters included. That would almost certainly lead to significant losses to AD though. They should have done that immediately, when UA legacy AD was on its last breath, but the schizophrenic nature of the operation at first kinda messed that up, with all the "goodwill gestures" etc.

    No need to do this, seems to me a MIG-31 patrol over the black sea would hone down the Ukrainian SU-24 fleet pretty quickly.

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:14 pm

    Regular wrote:
    franco wrote:Constantly surprised at how people cannot grasp that the second largest military force in Europe with the full support of NATO will occasionally get a hit in via whatever means.  

    Yes, but Ukrainian tochkas were completely negated and shot down and nothing was hit apart train station that belong to Ukraine themselves. Even when they attacked Donetsk city, it was shot down. 

    They weren't. Tochkas hit Donetsk at least a couple of times, killed civilians. They hit Berdyansk where that troop transport vessel was and sunk it. They hit an airbase used by Russia in the Kherson region, took out a few Mi-8s on the ground. They hit an airbase in either Belgorod or Kursk region, toasted some Russian aircraft on the ground too. I seem to recall them hitting a large concentration of Russian troops too, killed perhaps 30 or 40 although that might have been a HIMARS (no, it wasn't the New Year's strike)

    You are missing the problem- UA keeps reusing same planes for how many times? According to some Telegram chair generals, Ukrainian airforce and specifically SU-24M were destroyed 50 times. It’s not that they can be resupplied? Ukrainians shouldn’t be allowed to fly anything above the sea. Every time NATO assets are in the air, it should telegraph that something will be up, like now when P-8s were flying. CAP should thin SU numbers. 

    NATO assets are probably up all the time or half the time. They have plenty of them. They have the Turkish frigates in the Black Sea which have their own radars. They will know everything that Russia has above and around the Crimea at any given moment.
    The Su-24 is a low-altitude penetration bomber. Your ground and air defense radars won't see them coming if they fly within their dead zones or behind terrain. The AWACS and aircraft radars might but it depends how far they are and if the Su-24s are flying above land then maybe they won't be picked out from the clutter.
    The NATO assets can relay information to the Su-24 group so that if any dangerous Russian anything is up in the air and too close, they can turn back. So it's just a matter of finding a gap in the patrols.

    Another problem - Red lines. Both Medvedev and Shoigu drew them. Just fucking don’t. They look like utter idiots as if their bluff is being called out. There should be a line when crossed - all Ukrainian politicians, their properties, their business, their family members get geraned. Now escalation is all done by NATO and Ukraine and Russia just says - one step closer and I will shoot… When shot in the balls was already needed when Crimean bridge was targeted. It’s pretty simple, no one would have dared to play this game with Soviets and you know it

    As someone else said, neither Medvedev or Shoigu or anyone else are obligated to act according to your own schedule. The red line has been crossed, that's enough for us to know.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:16 pm

    The Ukrainian channel Legitimny reports:

    "Onyx-class missiles (according to preliminary data) have struck the Odessa region. The explosions were very loud and numerous, affecting Zatoka/Sergeyevka and the entire coastline. They targeted sanatoriums where 'non-holidaymakers' reside and also struck coastal batteries, airfield strips, and hangars. Please exercise caution."

    @Slavyangrad

    Reports from turkish sources indicate that Kremenchug Airport, the launch site for the cruise missile strike on Crimea-Sevastopol, has been targeted by Russia with a significant barrage of cruise missiles. No air raid warning was issued. It is presumed that low-observable Kh-50 cruise missiles were utilized.

    Both SCALP and Storm Shadow missiles, which were stationed at the airbase, along with the Su-24M/MR bombers responsible for today's attack, have been destroyed.

    A substantial number of firefighters and ambulances have been dispatched to the airfield. There are significant casualties among pilots, ground personnel, and even NATO personnel, including Poles, who were involved in coordinating the operations and maintaining the missiles.

    #source

    @Slavyangrad

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:16 pm

    Victor vicktop55
    @vicktop55
    .
    4h
    But the news of the day arrived in the channel in the evening.  Germany will transfer the first batch of 45 Taurus missiles to Ukraine in the near future.  The second batch of Taurus will consist of 50 missiles and will be transferred to the Ukrainian Armed Forces before November 10.

    The Pentagon will supply the Ukrainian Armed Forces with 30 ATACMS missiles and three transport-loading vehicles for them by October.
    M1A1 Abrams tanks are already in Rzeszow.  The transfer to Ukrainian territory will take place at night, starting Saturday night.

    Apparently, the United States and NATO are not at all afraid of Russia’s response to this escalation of the war on their part.  But the fact is that, sooner or later, Russia will respond.  And these actions will be in the form of intercontinental ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads.  As you understand, these missiles will fly not to Ukraine.

    https://t.me/vicktop55/1726

    GEROMAN -- time will tell - 👀 --
    @GeromanAT
    The ATACMS features a 230 kg warhead, which is much smaller and less destructive than the 450 kg warhead of the Storm Shadow. The 300 km range of the ATACMS is much less than the 550 km range of the Storm Shadow.

    ATACMS use GPS-aided inertial navigation guidance to strike their targets. They have no seeker to accurately home to their target. The Storm Shadow features an optical seeker for terminal homing that can see and recognize its target. As such, a Storm Shadow missile is more accurate.

    The ballistic trajectory of the ATACMS is predictable. Therefore, an ATACMS is much more easier to intercept than a Storm Shadow. Russia has had a fair amount of success in intercepting HIMARS rockets. It is likely that it will have much better success in intercepting ATACMS.


    Last edited by JohninMK on Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:17 pm

    JohninMK wrote:The Ukrainian channel Legitimny reports:

    "Onyx-class missiles (according to preliminary data) have struck the Odessa region. The explosions were very loud and numerous, affecting Zatoka/Sergeyevka and the entire coastline. They targeted sanatoriums where 'non-holidaymakers' reside and also struck coastal batteries, airfield strips, and hangars. Please exercise caution."

    @Slavyangrad

    Reports from turkish sources indicate that Kremenchug Airport, the launch site for the cruise missile strike on Crimea-Sevastopol, has been targeted by Russia with a significant barrage of cruise missiles. No air raid warning was issued. It is presumed that low-observable Kh-50 cruise missiles were utilized.

    Both SCALP and Storm Shadow missiles, which were stationed at the airbase, along with the Su-24M/MR bombers responsible for today's attack, have been destroyed.

    A substantial number of firefighters and ambulances have been dispatched to the airfield. There are significant casualties among pilots, ground personnel, and even NATO personnel, including Poles, who were involved in coordinating the operations and maintaining the missiles.

    #source

    @Slavyangrad

    Can only hope that report is true

    About the other report with the vaunted ATACMS and Taurus and M1A1 Abrams - who the hell cares

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:23 pm

    @garryb it wasn't me who classed then as MLRS it was u. And no a platform doesn't constitute if it's a MLRS or not. It's the system itself. MLRS rocket being the key word isn't a guided missile as I mentioned just because it has two missiles doesn't mean it's a MLRS. And I certainly never said anything was MLRS.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:34 pm

    Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Yes, there are vast underground facilities there, and in Balaklava (though most/all of the latter have been turned into a cold war museum and the entrances to the underground submarine pens sealed off).

    There were multiple hardened "pop-up" coastal defense sites built into the mountains facing south, too. At least one of these is in use still.

    I visited this museum back in 2009 and we walked along the sub pens that were natural tunnels into the rock, and the blast doors were huge, I have pictures somewhere need to dig them out. And yes after 2014 a few of the cliff side the coastal defenses were reactivated. It's a nice little town with great views.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:14 pm

    Attacking where the missiles came from is just the usual legalistic bureaucratic approach again.

    The Tartus and ATACM missiles are on the way. They will probably even try and ship them through the odessa port on civilian ships.  These spoiler attacks are going to continue indefinitely. This is the new counter offensive. Once a week there will probably be one of these kinds of attacks.

    I fail to see how doing nothing is the only answer here.

    About the other report with the vaunted ATACMS and Taurus and M1A1 Abrams - who the hell cares

    One of these Nato attacks a week on targets in Crimea, ones that kill Russians, who cares ?

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Sep 23, 2023 12:53 am

    Backman wrote:Attacking where the missiles came from is just the usual legalistic bureaucratic approach again.

    The Tartus and ATACM missiles are on the way. They will probably even try and ship them through the odessa port on civilian ships.  These spoiler attacks are going to continue indefinitely. This is the new counter offensive. Once a week there will probably be one of these kinds of attacks.

    I fail to see how doing nothing is the only answer here.

    About the other report with the vaunted ATACMS and Taurus and M1A1 Abrams - who the hell cares

    One of these Nato attacks a week on targets in Crimea, ones that kill Russians, who cares ?

    Only thing that matters is amount of dead Ukrainians

    If some Russians need to die in order to additionally boost the number of dead Ukrainians then it's perfectly acceptable tradeoff

    Russia wants to be in the big league, this is the entry fee

    They were late with payments for decades so it's perfectly normal for monthly payments to be slightly larger than usual




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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:10 am

    Backman wrote:Attacking where the missiles came from is just the usual legalistic bureaucratic approach again.

    The Tartus and ATACM missiles are on the way. They will probably even try and ship them through the odessa port on civilian ships.  These spoiler attacks are going to continue indefinitely. This is the new counter offensive. Once a week there will probably be one of these kinds of attacks.

    I fail to see how doing nothing is the only answer here.
    The only good thing about these successful strikes is that it will eventually force Russia to take Nikolaev and Odessa as NATO constantly uses its drones and spy planes in the black sea to help guide these cruise missiles to their targets. Making the Ukraine landlocked is the only way realistically to end these attacks on Crimea.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:04 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    They weren't. Tochkas hit Donetsk at least a couple of times, killed civilians. They hit Berdyansk where that troop transport vessel was and sunk it. They hit an airbase used by Russia in the Kherson region, took out a few Mi-8s on the ground. They hit an airbase in either Belgorod or Kursk region, toasted some Russian aircraft on the ground too. I seem to recall them hitting a large concentration of Russian troops too, killed perhaps 30 or 40 although that might have been a HIMARS (no, it wasn't the New Year's strike)

    The scale of ignorance some here present makes me seriously wonder what are you folks even doing at a military forum, yet specialised in Russian matters dunno scratch
    Your brilliant analysis, where from the first line it gets crystal clear that you don't know how to look at the map.
    Your pro grade military advice, presenting that you have no bloody clue about the range of the systems you are happily arguing about.
    Your constant whining, making it obvious that you lived in some la la land all of your life, separated from common sense, and your perception of military matters came from Counter Strike.
    Amazing! Simply amazing!
    Russkie just smashed the Ukro army. Again, and it is the third one, being the weakest.
    Every next army they have assembled after April 22, is weaker.
    The recruitment base shrinked radically, and I mean not only the physical liquidation of manpower, but its quality and moral condition.
    Ukrs are hunting the man down on the streets like some dogs.

    All around Europe, there are military units with no gear left.
    Polish 3rd AD Missile Brigade is left with no missiles. In one battery, they have a few working Pilica left. A ZU-23-2 with attached Grom.
    Everything that was more or less operational was transferred to 404, and in cases when it was impossible - S-200 stationary battery at Mrzeżyno - missiles are gone.
    Shilkas are gone.
    Osas are gone.
    There are hardly any MiG-29s left to pose for pictures hiding the fact, which ended up with sort of a mutiny.
    There are no Mi-24 left.
    Only a few Mi-8 stayed.
    Polish generals started to fly around using ... Mi-2.
    Our latest announcement that we won't deliver the gear anymore is not a political gesture, but the fact that there is nothing to give away left.
    The same is true for every ex WarPac country that had some Soviet heritage systems Ukrs could use.
    Bundeswehre is being stripped off operational equipment, and its already miserable shape before the war is only a warm memory of the past.

    What is the most shocking and scary part of the whole equation, is that Russkie did that without sweating, using 1/3rd of their force, limiting collateral damage, and attacking dual purpose infrastructure per se.
    Ukraine was the heaviest army in Europe, second to the Russian only.
    Operated around 200 (!TWO HUNDRED!) S-300PS systems, some 70 (!SEVENTY!) Buks, some 3000 armored vehicles, +/- 400 airplanes.
    After the military reforms, on the eve of the war, it consisted of 280 000 army, assisted by 60 000 National Guard, 50 000 territorial defence, 50 000 border troops, and 10 000 civil defence.
    It was being armed to the teeth, with the help of all NATO, both material and financial. Heavily trained, the investments in military infrastructure were mindblowing concerning the general misery of the failed Ukro state. Army and other power structures used to be the best employer, with good and stable money assigned.
    Ukrainian MIC was heavily developing.
    Just to give you a thing, and concerning the "NATO ammunition supply", Ukrainian army was supplied with more than 520 000 pieces of ammo in 2018, 1.3mln in 2019, and 3.3 mln in 2020. THREE POINT THREE MLN. Own origin.
    The number of yearly produced armored units was more than 300.
    In 2018-2020, the number of delivered Stugna missiles closed to 500 pcs.
    For the same period, the number of new radars produced and delivered totaled the number of the radar Poland operates. All of them.
    Aside from the production, a heavy refurbishment program was on track - for 2018-2020, around 50 both aircraft and air defense systems has been repaired/modernized.
    They have been gearing up for war, since 2014.
    This force was annihilated in two months, by the Russian combined forces of a regular army, republican militias and internal troops totaling less than half of the OpFor.
    And some of you really need to have his nose wiped, because two out of 10 the most modern cruise missiles NATO has slipped into Crimea, making the catalog number of the probability of kill given to the best Russian AD systems.
    Gee!

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    Post  Tolstoy Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:43 am

    There is an important lesson about this whole incident - Storm Shadow hitting the Black Sea HQ of the Russian Navy.

    The lesson is short-range SAM system, designed for short duration high intensity warfare, face reliability problems in years long attrition conflicts. Both Pantsir & Tor need hydraulics to align to the threat. If their engagement radars are still PESA, it means they are relying on singe RF energy source. Though Panstir M2 sports a AESA.

    After many months of operation, a system with a single point of failure can become unreliable. The search radar foremost but also continuous activation of the engagement radar can take its toll.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:53 am

    Jokes aside, if that is how a direct hit of Storm Shadow looks like, rather hard to be impressed.
    Those damages are somehow paired with misfired 5V55 missiles ...

    Have to agree... it just looks like a bit of fire damage...

    The idea being a morale boost, and hopefully an angry Russian retaliation as a secondary goal, that Zelensky can point to, while he's safe and sound elsewhere.

    According to the HT the response was to hit residential buildings in the Donetsk... presumably in Ukrainian held areas and buildings believed to be occupied by Ukrainian soldiers. Should be interesting but Kiev will spin it as being civilian housing that is hit.

    The frustration in Russian circles is understandable, and I don't know what the reasoning is.

    There would be no point in attacking nazi government buildings because just after they launched an attack they would not continue to hold meetings in such places and knocking down buildings is just symbolic bullshit that changes nothing in this conflict. It makes more sense to wait a month and hit those buildings when they are full.

    Or find out where the alternative venue is and hit that when they are having a meeting.

    if the VKS cannot contain a small fleet of ancient SU-24's then I really question their ability to protect Russia TBH.

    This conflict is not all out war... if HATO was a real party to this conflict most of their aircraft would get smacked very quickly... as would all their force multiplier aircraft like AWACS and JSTARS etc etc.

    The aircraft was designed to be difficult to deal with and even with the entire HATO supporting them they are running out of everything... their air power is largely insignificant... and largely ineffective... their last two attacks took out two vessels that would likely not take part in the rest of this conflict anyway and an attack on an important building and may have killed one man... so 160 million more attacks like that and they win right?

    Had they been the U.S. they would at the very least have leveled Kiev by now with conventional weaponry.

    America likes to level places and then wins the contracts to rebuild the place... badly.

    Flying top cover all the time looking for enemy aircraft and HATO will monitor them and look for gaps where they can take off and launch an attack and then run away to HATO territory.

    There is a Nato liaison office in Kiev. There are all kinds of bureaucratic buildings that can be destroyed. Bring the war to the heart of Kiev.

    I personally think the US Embassy should be targeted in the middle of the day when it is full.

    So according to Rybar, 4 Su-24M and 7 missiles were involved. And this was enough to saturate Russian AD and sneak past CAP?
    How not to question this?

    7 SS on four Fencers sounds a little strange... surely they would carry two each, they could probably carry four each... so what were the rest carrying and what else did they carry... I would expect decoy drones and HARMs would likely also be carried and an external fuel tank so they could go full AB all the way in and out.

    these constant su-24 strikes on Crimea makes me so relieved they are not fielding F-16s yet.

    Su-24 is a vastly more effective low level strike platform than a shitty old F-16 piece of crap.

    Another problem - Red lines. Both Medvedev and Shoigu drew them. Just fucking don’t. They look like utter idiots as if their bluff is being called out.

    Well they laughed at Putin and his red lines and documents he sent to the EU and HATO regarding Russias red lines and they just laughed at him and said he would do nothing about it... because if they had sat down and talked through and negotiated either of those documents this conflict probably would not have started so really there was actually a consequence for HATO and the EU ignoring his red lines... ironically half the consequences are from their own sanctions against Russia...

    Funny how people talk about red lines like they are trip wires to land mines that have to go off immediately and kill anyone and everything near by... like the US invading Afghanistan because a Saudi Nation OBL living in Pakistan attacked the US.... 20 years in Afghanistan and he wasn't even there.

    There should be a line when crossed - all Ukrainian politicians, their properties, their business, their family members get geraned.

    I totally agree the assets and investments of Ukrainian politicians and oligarchs supporting them should be targeted over and over... they should not profit from this conflict.

    No need to do this, seems to me a MIG-31 patrol over the black sea would hone down the Ukrainian SU-24 fleet pretty quickly.
    Regular

    The black sea is enormous and the MiG can only reach so far and occupy a certain position in space at any time.... HATO forces are watching and will tell the orc pilot when and where to go to avoid it.

    Most likely that is what they are already doing...

    The advantage Kiev has is that they don't need to get through all the time, they can wait and pick their times to get through that give them their best chance of getting away alive.

    Pushing the line back to HATO borders is their long term solution I am sure and will be effective.

    When they cross a real red line like they say Polish forces will cross into the Ukraine and protect the western regions that have small groups of poles as citizens... that is when Putin needs to say no and if you do you will pay heavily for that...

    Making the Ukraine landlocked is the only way realistically to end these attacks on Crimea.

    Exactly... they can use the flight ranges of ATACMS and Taurus and other systems as a justification for how far back they need to push Ukrainian forces from Russian territory.

    There was one video channel saying if Zelensky keeps up with this counter offensive his own troops will rise up and get rid of him... well a news programme showed him claiming the offensive will continue into winter if needs be... that should be interesting.

    Russia does not have to fight to the HATO borders... if the Ukrainian army surrenders then they should be able to just march through and occupy the area while referendums are organised and nazis and those wanted for war crimes are rounded up and put into custody.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:02 am

    @garryb it wasn't me who classed then as MLRS it was u. And no a platform doesn't constitute if it's a MLRS or not. It's the system itself. MLRS rocket being the key word isn't a guided missile as I mentioned just because it has two missiles doesn't mean it's a MLRS. And I certainly never said anything was MLRS.

    It is a group discussion and not all my comments are directed at you, so I can see how confusion arises.

    The members suggesting Russia should expand the Smerch to make it like the MLRS systems China and North Korea and Belarus operate were suggesting Russia needs a MLRS with the performance of Iskander with of course the cost of Smerch and I have since been trying to tell them about the difference between the two systems as to why the Iskander costs more than Smerch and that an Iskander ranged Smerch is not needed nor is it desirable.

    What Russia needs is a simpler cheaper Iskander and extended range simpler and cheaper Iskander that can reach further and hit targets that are quite strongly built, but they still need Iskander and a longer range Iskander that can penetrate enemy defences when needed.

    For a battery they might want a modular system with different warhead options and different ranges but I suspect they will adopt scramjet propulsion because it is cheaper and makes for smaller and more compact weapons.
    Smile

    The Tartus and ATACM missiles are on the way. They will probably even try and ship them through the odessa port on civilian ships. These spoiler attacks are going to continue indefinitely. This is the new counter offensive. Once a week there will probably be one of these kinds of attacks.

    Which is why Kiev needs to be defeated on the battlefield and the current borders are not acceptable because too much Russian territory is in range of Nazi weapons... even if the rest of Ukraine is neutral.

    I fail to see how doing nothing is the only answer here.

    Only the weak pussies have been saying Putin will do nothing. John has already posted a report that suggests the airfield the Su-24s has been hit and planes and missiles have been destroyed and pilots and support people have been killed including HATO support people... but lets just pretend that is nothing because obviously destroying missiles and aircraft and the people who fly and support them is doing nothing... they should let off a tactical nuke in the middle of the Black Sea and show everyone they mean business... except that would just make them look unstable... like the Americans.

    @Alamo... excellent post... giving you a bonus extra 100 points.

    The lesson is short-range SAM system, designed for short duration high intensity warfare, face reliability problems in years long attrition conflicts. Both Pantsir & Tor need hydraulics to align to the threat. If their engagement radars are still PESA, it means they are relying on singe RF energy source. Though Panstir M2 sports a AESA.

    I would say a better lesson would be that very large radars mounted in the sky that are operational 24/7 are more valuable now than ever and they have tethered airships with radar arrays that are used in mountains... why not a large tethered airship to operate over cities or just in open terrain to provide 24/7 coverage.

    The tether could include power and communication cords so you could have radar antennas in every frequency within the structure of the airship that can see super long range with very high definition... if Taurus has a RCS of a small bird or insect it should still stand out because there are not many birds or insects flying that fast.

    But then their new photonic radar might replace everything... in a decade or two.

    Of course even such an all seeing eye can do little against a tiny drone launched 100m away from the target...

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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:36 am

    Tolstoy wrote:There is an important lesson about this whole incident - Storm Shadow hitting the Black Sea HQ of the Russian Navy.

    The lesson is short-range SAM system, designed for short duration high intensity warfare, face reliability problems in years long attrition conflicts. Both Pantsir & Tor need hydraulics to align to the threat. If their engagement radars are still PESA, it means they are relying on singe RF energy source. Though Panstir M2 sports a AESA.

    After many months of operation, a system with a single point of failure can become unreliable. The search radar foremost but also continuous activation of the engagement radar can take its toll.

    This is complete and exact copy of Patarames's reply to me on twitter. Which i'll be honest kinda make little sense.

    Like first. Transmitter type dont matter. Maybe tube transmitter have shorter live compared to solid state, problem is that you dont turn on your radar all the time. As you are risking lighting up yourself to enemy ESM. Secondly radar needs electricity and electricity comes from generator which is gas turbine or diesel. They need fuel so the endurance is kinda measured in at most 1-2 days before you run out of fuel for your generator.

    And regarding hydraulics.. well NASAMS needs hydraulics too despite being active radar homing, why not just let the missile turn by itself ?. Also there is no Pantsyr M2 but Pantsyr SM and this thing dosent seem to enter serial yet.

    -------

    The only thing one can ask would be where are VVS.. like why no patrols etc.. Flamming Python already explained that well above.

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    Post  lancelot Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:42 am

    Also, Tor does not need to face the target. The missile orients itself on launch unlike with Pantsir.
    It only has a rotating turret because of the radar. But it can also cue in targets guided on other radars.

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:58 am

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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:01 am

    Also, Tor does not need to face the target. The missile orients itself on launch unlike with Pantsir.
    It only has a rotating turret because of the radar. But it can also cue in targets guided on other radars.

    A battery of 4 to 6 TELAR vehicles could cover every direction with their tracking radars and maybe one or two could operate their search radars looking for targets and the vehicle in the most suitable position could launch its missile at the target with the vehicle with the tracking radar pointed in the correct direction could guide that missile to impact.

    Plus you can of course connect the vehicle to local mains power if they were stationed there... or extra generators could be used when needed.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:15 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    Kinda feel that Lancaster should censor his face.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:30 am

    lancelot wrote:Also, Tor does not need to face the target. The missile orients itself on launch unlike with Pantsir.
    It only has a rotating turret because of the radar. But it can also cue in targets guided on other radars.

    I guess you have missed the Tolstoys point.
    What he said, having perfectly right, is the fact that 18+ months of extensive use of a military equipment is an extremely harsh condition.
    For multiple and rather obvious reasons, malfunctions might appear, hitting the overall performance of the system.
    Sure it is nothing that can't be sorted out, but that requires an intense production/repair cap, which was established in Russia with the war in a background.
    And still, take a look at the numbers, because those are much telling.
    Russian AD system performed with a real-life effectiveness on pair with the one from the catalogs. Which is impressive concerning the scale of the conflict. Give them a moment, they will do better - Storm Shadows are being intercepted on a daily basis, and heavily studied, weak points will be revealed and exploited. Soon, entire salvos will end up hitting the sea or something, as it was with the Tomahawks.

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:32 am

    What is common between the Iskander strike on Kharkov and the Lancet strike on the Dolgintsevo airfield:

    Where exactly was the AFU facility hit?

    We are talking about the defeat of one of the workshops of the Kharkov armored plant in the northeast of the city on September 15-16. This is not the first time that high-precision weapons have flown into the territory where military equipment of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is being repaired. Attacks on the industrial zone in this place were carried out before, however, on the territory of the plant with an area of ​​1.2 square km, there are several dozen workshops (including large ones) where equipment repairs can be transferred. The T-64 and T-72 tanks of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, damaged in battles, which were destroyed during a missile attack, arrived at the plant for repairs.

    What does this strike and the use of the Lancet at the Dolgintsevo airfield have in common?

    As in the case of the attack on the airfield in Krivoy Rog, the first thing that catches your eye is the virtual absence of an air defense system over an object that is strategically important for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. From the site where the workshop was hit in Kharkov, the border with Russia is just over 30 km, which makes it possible to use a large number of reconnaissance UAVs for objective control of hits. In addition, both the airfield and the workshops of the Kharkov Armored Plant are active military installations, the functioning of which after the strike was almost certainly, if not disrupted, then difficult and most definitely compromised.

    What's unusual about this strike?

    Despite numerous hits and the loss of expensive repair equipment (as well as the tanks and other equipment themselves), the Ukrainian Armed Forces are in no hurry to leave these territories. Why? Kharkov is perhaps the only large city near the front line, with at least one-third consisting of industrial zones.

    The armored plant is not the only production site with a large number of buildings and long-standing infrastructure such as industrial power supply, gas supply, and multi-level structures for protection against impacts.

    In addition, in Kharkov and its surrounding suburbs, there are at least five large junction railway stations, using which you can secretly transport equipment for repairs. In addition, the Kharkov Armored Plant specializes in overhauls and modernization of T-64, T-80, and T-72 tanks, for which it has all the necessary equipment.

    If Kharkov is in the missile strike zone, why not destroy all the workshops?

    The entire industrial zone of Kharkov, especially defense enterprises, was built during the Soviet era. Design standards in those days were calculated in such a way that a plant or factory carrying out defense orders could remain operational when subjected to heavy blows. There are few enterprises with such a margin of safety, security of the main key communications, a large number of backup lines, and a set of industrial equipment at the same time in Ukraine, so refusal to use the territory of KhBZ and Kharkov as a production site, in principle, most likely will not be considered even under the threat of missile strikes. This suggests that attacks on the city’s industrial zone will continue.

    #source
    @Slavyangrad

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:49 am

    The overall shape and mental condition of the Ukro cannon fodder, written by The Times.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-draft-dodgers-dream-up-extreme-ways-to-avoid-the-front-p87kdjxgj

    What is here not to like?

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:56 am

    Zlatti71
    @djuric_zlatko
    .
    3h
    🇺🇦⚔🇷🇺 The enemy is strengthening the defense at the junction of Zaporozhye and the DPR: The enemy is suffering significant losses and has stopped attempting an offensive

    Members of the Vostok battalion report the situation on this section of the front :

    ➖"An amazing night - almost complete silence. This is a rare phenomenon in recent months. At another time, one could say that this is the calm before the storm, but now there is no such feeling - the enemy really suffered significant losses, and most importantly - he did not understand what tactics could bring him results. It would seem that everything has been tried.

    The last technique, when he continuously mixed us up with artillery for several days, and only then went on the offensive, led to the fact that he was unable to gain a foothold in positions, from which we retreated, and now they are again under our control. Moreover, the fortieth brigade even managed to crawl into territory that was previously considered under the control of the enemy. There is something to think about. Will he be able to accumulate strength to try his military luck again? "

    @Slavyangrad

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:59 am

    ALAMO wrote:The overall shape and mental condition of the Ukro cannon fodder, written by The Times.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-draft-dodgers-dream-up-extreme-ways-to-avoid-the-front-p87kdjxgj

    What is here not to like?

    Care to give us the text from behind the paywall? tongue

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:00 am

    It might be a side view but I'd say that Austin didn't look very happy.

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