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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:33 am

    kvs wrote:So the only "solution" is human waves. That is what the 200,000 pulled up to the front means. I find this number to not be credible,
    but even it is valid, then it is mostly poorly trained conscripts and not the trained troops the Kiev regime had last year. They have
    been losing soldiers too fast to allow long training intervals for new recruits. As has been informed multiple times, people are jacked off
    the street and sent straight to the front.

    Hopefully it's credible

    6 digit KIA in one battle would send a powerful message to all eager young space cadets in Europe


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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:47 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Fyjqgz10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Fyjqho10
    clown clown clown clown clown clown clown clown
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Scree734

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:54 am

    Could a directional jamming system like Murmansk BN, or many Krasukha-4 stationed along the Belarus border provide a blanket against NATO AWACS which are searching for VKS flight paths to pass on to Ukrainian air defense?

    What about jamming systems placed in Kaliningrad and Transnistria?

    This could solve the problem of tracking of VKS

    Would they want to give away such technology that might lead to HATO developing counters or alternatives?

    Surprising that Russia had so many tank losses. That is almost 2x that of Ukraine. I guess they used more armor then men to defend.

    Anti armour artillery perhaps?

    Surprising that Russia had so many tank losses. That is almost 2x that of Ukraine. I guess they used more armor then men to defend.

    If he said the ratio was ten to one and the Russian side lost 50 tanks then that means the Ukrainians lost 500 tanks.

    Ukraine est delenda - Ukraine must be destroyed

    Zelenskis nazis need to be destroyed...

    ... right up to the level of Biden and Sunak.


    How do you repair charred wreckage?

    How are they going to drag damaged vehicles from the front line in the east of Ukraine to HATO countries in the west?

    It's amazing what a new coat of paint can do!

    Western vehicles are designed and built for photos and videos and not combat so a bit of paint and lighting from the correct angle might be all they need... as well as something that can hide the cables pulling them along the parade ground of course...

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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:02 pm

    Tolstoy wrote:Nakidka and Bramble combined with a DIRCM system will significantly increase the survivability of Russian vehicles against ATGMs.
    What is Bramble?
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    Post  Hole Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:15 pm

    What's up?

    Again there were night attacks on targets in Ukraine - again with drones and cruise missiles:

    ▪ From the Black Sea, the fleet struck with four "calibers".

    ▪ From the east coast of the Azov Sea, the Russians attacked 10 Shahids.

    ▪ From the Rostov region, they struck targets in the Donbass with six Kh-22 air-launched cruise missiles. Ukrainian air defenses failed to shoot down one of them. The consequences will be published again today by the Russian Defense Ministry.

    On the southern front, the old picture still prevails - territorial fighting in the gray zone, without the Ukrainian side being able to advance to the first line of defense. In the Makarovka region, fierce fighting continues, Russian troops continue their attacks and try to eliminate the forces, the enemy was repulsed in several areas. Ukrainian military propagandists recognize the multiple attacks of the Russian Federation forces to the south and southwest of the village, as well as the approach of our reserves along the line Urozhanye-Novodonetskoe-Novomayorskoe.

    All in all, the Ukrainian Army is continuously losing Western combat equipment due to a significantly increased number of air strikes by the Russian Air Force - Gunships and SU-35 with up to 300 sorties per day. The impression arises that the Russians were damn well prepared and in principle doubled the air strikes at the right time, that also reports the British intelligence, which otherwise, as is known, likes to fine-tune the truths.

    Again, numerous new videos and pictures of destroyed equipment testify to the penetrating power of Russian air superiority. Putin speaks of up to 30% destroyed systems out of the total number of the last delivered quantities of NATO partners. For every hundred AFU soldiers initially injured, 50 die. In total, experts estimate up to 13,000 AFU casualties KIA- more than the Soviet army lost in the Afgahnistan campaign. The current ratio is 10 AFU soldiers for 1 RAF soldier. Putin speaks of just over 50 Russian tanks lost in the entire conflict.

    Medvedev, meanwhile, underscores the following:

    The Russian President recently advocated the establishment of a demilitarized zone to ensure the country's security. This zone should be established along the borders of Lvov (Polish: Lemberg) and serve as an effective defense measure. It is implied that this demilitarized zone would redefine the borders of the area previously referred to as "Land 404."

    Considering the alleged involvement of Western countries in undermining the Nord Stream project, Medvedev implies that there are no moral or other constraints preventing Russia from damaging its adversaries' submarine cable links. This implies a willingness to respond to perceived threats with aggressive action.

    From Zlatti71

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:22 pm


    Russia may organize a demonstration of a captured Leopard at the OSCE forum

    Permanent representative in Vienna Gavrilov: Russia can organize a demonstration of a captured Leopard in the OSCE


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 18774010

    VIENNA, June 14 - RIA Novosti. The Russian side will not limit itself to displaying ammunition for the HIMARS MLRS at the OSCE forum, but will organize a demonstration of a captured German Leopard tank, if necessary, in order to reason with Europeans who support acts of Ukrainian terrorism, the head of the Russian delegation at the talks in Vienna on military issues told RIA Novosti. security and arms control Konstantin Gavrilov.
    The diplomat on Wednesday at the plenary meeting of the Forum for Security Cooperation (FSC) for the first time in the history of this body presented fragments of ammunition for the American MLRS HIMARS, which are used against people in the Donbass - as evidence of the crimes of Kiev sponsored by the United States.

    "If necessary, we will not limit ourselves to displaying ammunition for the HIMARS MLRS and will organize a demonstration of a captured German Leopard tank," Gavrilov said.
    The diplomat recalled that since 2014, the facts of war crimes of Ukraine have been massively recorded in the Donbass, they were officially notified by human rights organizations, the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

    "However, in none of the cases there was a proper reaction. If the international community had not indulged the "Maidan" regime in Kiev with its inaction, the hostilities in Donbass would have ended long ago," the agency's interlocutor added.
    He noted that the Russian side will continue to demand from international institutions an objective assessment of the actions of the Kiev authorities, the suppression of war crimes by Ukraine, and the cessation of the supply of heavy weapons to Kiev, which is used to shell the civilian population of Russia.

    "But the most effective means that will make it possible to reason with the Europeans is the continuation of a special military operation and the destruction by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation of military equipment supplied by the West, followed by the depletion of NATO-EU weapons stocks. The quantity of liquidated Western weapons in Ukraine will certainly turn into quality," he concluded Gavrilov.

    https://ria.ru/20230614/leopard-1878005205.html[/quote]






    Military Watch Magazine Editorial Staff
    June-13th-2023

    Footage Confirms: Russian Soldiers Capture German Leopard 2 Tanks and American Bradleys in Ukraine

    Russian personnel have captured at least one Leopard 2 tank and multiple Bradley infantry fighting vehicles in Ukraine’s Zaporozhye Region, as confirmed by new footage released by the Russian Defence Ministry. The footage shows Russian personnel inspecting the Western supplied armour, with one seemingly excited soldier circling them and remarking that some of them had their engines still running. “This [explicit] hardware is not as scary as it seemed,” he was heard saying. While it was previously speculated that Russian personnel may have only accessed the vehicles briefly, before returning to their defensive positions, Russians on the sources have since reported that the assets were captured. Sharing the footage on social media, the Defence Ministry referred to the Western vehicles as “our trophies,” adding that their condition“indicates the rapid pace of the engagement and the abandonment of the battle-ready hardware by the Ukrainian armed forces.” While Ukraine has previously deployed only older armour to the frontlines primarily Soviet T-64 tanks which it inherited in 1991, new generations of tanks supplied have begun to appear far more frequently in major offensives initiated in early June.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Articl48
    Screenshots From Video of Leopard 2 and Bradley Capture

    The Leopard 2A6 captured in this case is one of the most capable classes fielded in NATO, with these supplied to Ukraine in very limited numbers alongside larger numbers of much older and less capable Leopard 2A4 and Leopard 1 tanks. The Leopard 2A4 previously proved highly vulnerable even against non state paramilitary forces when deployed by Turkish forces in Syria and Iraq. This vulnerability is thought to be a reason why Germany was initially highly hesitant to allow the provision of Leopard 2s to Ukraine, lest its most high profile defence product be further discredited. In response to the heavy losses Ukrainian armour has taken, the United States has pledged to replace Bradley fighting vehicles lost and to provide depleted uranium ammunition - joining Britain which announced in March that it would also be supplying the highly controversial munitions to improve the anti armour capabilities of Ukrainian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

    In the battle that saw a Leopard 2A6 disabled and abandoned a second tank of the same class was shown in close up aerial footage burning and completely destroyed. While the destruction of multiple Leopard 2s has been reported, it remains uncertain whether more of these have also been from the relatively modern A6 variant or whether others were from the more widely used Leopard 2A4 class. Russian Vikhr-1 missiles launched by attack helicopters such as the Ka-52 Alligator have reportedly been responsible for a large portion of Ukraine’s armour losses.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Articl49
    Leopard 2A6 Destroyed in Combat

    The value of capturing a Leopard 2A6 remains questionable, as while it could potentially allow the Russian Military to better develop means of countering the vehicles, the repeatedly demonstrated limitations of the German design mean Russia can likely be confident that its existing assets are more than able to neutralise it. Furthermore, with the exception of Poland’s newly acquired South Korean K2 tanks, while Russia does not face any serious disadvantages in its armoured warfare capabilities compared to NATO, particular since it has now belatedly put its modern T-90M tank into very large scale mass production, the primary challenges Russia faces from NATO remain in the air and in space. Demonstration that not only the Leopard 2A4, but also the new A6 variant, are limited in their survivability against modern Russian anti armour capabilities, may well spur NATO members including Germany to accelerate work on future generations of tanks. Russia has already developed a next generation tank under the T-14 program, although serious delays in development mean that this is not yet fielded on a meaningful scale despite having made initial deployments to Ukraine in April.

    https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/russians-capture-leo2-bradleys


    Therefore, those from militarywatch magazine also write that Leopard-2 is JUNK;
    The value of capturing a Leopard 2A6 remains questionable, as while it could potentially allow the Russian Military to better develop means of countering the vehicles, the repeatedly demonstrated limitations of the German design mean Russia can likely be confident that its existing assets are more than able to neutralise it.


    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:32 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Fyk1sw10
    Fighting is still taking place in the green area.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:45 pm

    Military watch wrote:
    The value of capturing a Leopard 2A6 remains questionable, as while it could potentially allow the Russian Military to better develop means of countering the vehicles, the repeatedly demonstrated limitations of the German design mean Russia can likely be confident that its existing assets are more than able to neutralise it

    I smell BS.

    The problems of that particular tanks will not be magically changed if Russia shows the captured leopard to the world. NATO already knows that those have been destroyed.

    However it will have a big impact on russian people and on the people of the countries not aligned with the west. It shows that after more than 75 years, German tanks mannered by Nazis are again marching in russian lands against russian people.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:50 pm

    In how many conflicts were T-72 used and in how many Leopard 2 ?
    In just a few days in Syria, we know what happened to the Leopard 2, don't we ?
    The same is the case now, especially considering the still small number of Leopard 2 tanks in Ukroshitstan.
    I agree with Putin and his words "those tanks burn beautifully"...

    So it's not BS..

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    Regular
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    Post  Regular Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:55 pm

    It’s just a tank, symbolism was cool for one day, but fighting continues. Not sure if Russia managed to pull any of them out, they are not even close to Russian lines and in minefields. Why risk recovery vehicles? UA can’t extract them as well. Only small recon groups can reach them. If it was me, I would mine even more area around them or booby trap them and leave them be.

    Now the main thing for RU side is to detect troop concentrations and hubs and strike them. This is already been done during whole CO
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 Img_8610


    Last edited by Regular on Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:13 pm

    That's the bottom line, the Leopard 2A6 is ONLY a tank and not a spaceship compared to Russian tanks, but at best it's either equal or slightly weaker.
    The same applies to Eurofighter, Rafale, F-jets, etc in relation to Russian planes...

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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:30 pm

    Regular wrote:
    It’s just a tank, symbolism was cool for one day, but fighting continues. Not sure if Russia managed to pull any of them out, they are not even close to Russian lines and in minefields. Why risk recovery vehicles? UA can’t extract them as well. Only small recon groups can reach them. If it was me, I would mine even more area around them or booby trap them and leave them be.
    Ukraine was banking on those Leopard 2s and the overall western armored striking package punching through Russia's defenses.

    That these would be blown up just as easily as their Soviet equipped armies never entered their calculus at all. They're in shock.

    And if battle-hardened Ukrainian troops with NATO training and NATO equipment can't fight off the Russians...


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    Post  kvs Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:36 pm

    The underlying theme in the "Russia needs to haul in Leopard-2s for analysis" is that NATzO tanks are somehow superior. That is not
    the case for the junk sent over to Ukria by its patrons. Maybe the latest Leopard variant would have something of interest (the systems
    installed in it) but that's it.

    I am sure that in the near future we will be hearing from NATzO twats how Russia stole their precious tech. That is what Bolton was
    doing with his retarded drivel about Russia "stealing" US hypersonic missile tech. Yeah, non-existent US missile wunderwaffen are the
    bestest of the best. GTFO.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:48 pm

    Americans are a hypocritical and insidious bunch and there is no dispute about that.
    They accuse others of copying and stealing, while they have been "evaluating" the MiG-29 and Su-27 for years, etc...
    And the retarded public in the West swallows it like a monkey swallows a banana...

    With this conflict in Ukroshitstan, the Germans have proven to themselves AGAIN that they are by far the STUPIDEST nation in the West.
    Hardworking and meticulous, yes, but dumber than a board..

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    Post  franco Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:50 pm

    Ten commanders of brigades and detachments of the volunteer corps signed contracts with the Russian Ministry of Defense at once. The new status of the fighters who went to defend their homeland will allow them and their families to receive all social guarantees. In addition, now the units have received an official legal status and uniform approaches to the organization of comprehensive support.

    “The decision to raise their status, first of all, to provide the same benefits that are provided to all military personnel, participants in the special operation, was accepted by the personnel of volunteer formations with great approval. Volunteers saw the care of the state, they saw that their hard military work is highly valued, this gave them additional incentives to work for our victory,” said Defense Ministry spokesman Lieutenant General Vladimir Alekseev.

    Many military personnel are now on the front line, so they will sign contracts at their location or during the rotation of troops. Representatives of volunteer brigades are confident that such measures will benefit the Armed Forces and the units themselves.

    Recall that by order of Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, all volunteer organizations located in the NVO zone must sign contracts with the military department by July 1. At the same time, the fighters will be able to choose whether to conclude individual agreements with volunteer detachments or with the Ministry of Defense as contracted servicemen.

    https://tvzvezda-ru.translate.goog/news/20236141247-dVAeu.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB&_x_tr_pto=nui&_x_tr_hist=true

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:23 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    Ukraine was banking on those Leopard 2s and the overall western armored striking package punching through Russia's defenses.

    That these would be blown up just as easily as their Soviet equipped armies never entered their calculus at all. They're in shock.

    And if battle-hardened Ukrainian troops with NATO training and NATO equipment can't fight off the Russians...



    Because propaganda needed a new anchor to attract the mob on the one hand.
    But on the other hand, it is a clear sign of increasing NATO involvement in a conflict and considering the narrative from March-April of the last year, it only points out how much independence Europe has.
    Null.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:29 pm

    Leo 2A6 always offers good clues for a possible evaluation:

    - Material knowledge (how far is the opponent with material X or Y)
    - Manufacturing engineering
    - Possible types of operation (i.e. who can see what in the tank, do what, etc.)
    - installed systems and functions
    - possible communication and situation picture in the tank
    - Also what maintenance effort and operating expenses mean for the system and what it costs with 100 units in the attack (which logistics must be behind it and how "close" does it have to be)
    - quite simply, where is its armor weakest by shelling test

    A capture of the tiger in 1941 was worth its weight in gold for Russia. Without this information from the salvage, it would have been more difficult to fight it. Imagine if Germany had already built 300 units of the P-IVG variant per month from 1941 and the Tiger I (which was actually only an emergency solution) had been on the road not with one brigade but with two per division... that would have been real problems means.

    Anyone who uses Leo 2A4/6 so poorly shouldn't be surprised if they fail well before the first line. A targeted NATO attack in an area does not only involve 30 to 40 tanks. The same applies to Russia. We're not playing WW I where 30 tanks are trying to roll across a field. Ukraine has neither the weapons nor the troops to mount such a combined attack. You can also give T-14s to those who would stay just as far in front of the first line. Too few units with too little effect just don't bring a breakthrough.

    You could have used the Leo2 in the city as well. But they don't. It would have been much harder to turn it off there. But a tank is a tank. He always has advantages and disadvantages. If the target is not visible, he can only lose.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:43 pm

    Well, yes and no.
    It is one of the best, if not  the best, tanks that collective West was capable of producing - and I include armor superpowers like Korea and Japan here.
    Korea and Japan are not placed as sarcasm or a joke - both are the only po-western countries that produce new tanks.

    In the last couple of years, we had witnessed twice a real life usage of L2s.
    In Syria, the Turks failed miserably.
    Half of the active contingent was decimated with the help of ... Fagots.
    Or Fagot clones.
    A 50 y/o missile as that happened.
    Half fukin' age.
    Back there, there were tons of disputes and arguing about how much it is irrelevant because it was an old version, Turks are stupid and can't use them, blah blah blah.
    So here is a second chance.
    Most modern, taken straight from Bundeswehr and other Euro armies inventories, staffed with the elite of Panzerkorps ... o pardon, I meant battle experienced Ukrowehrmacht ... o pardon ... how we shall call them then?
    Effect?
    Well ...
    They have lost half of the stock in one place, 10 km wide, hardly seeing any enemy.
    Sooooo ... how NAFO gaylords will comment on that? dunno

    I know perfectly well how they will.
    It is irrelevant, again Laughing
    I watched one of them yesterday. How small-scale and unimportant for a whole offensive are those battles.
    Poor onanist forgot to add, that those small-scale and unimportant clashes involved all L2s they have, and left those simply killed, without any chance for replacement.
    And 20% or so delivered M2s, that have been collected for months.
    Without even getting in engagement range with Russian troops, and well 10 km before the FIRST line of Russkie defensive positions.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:26 pm

    Victor vicktop55
    @vicktop55
    ·
    43m
    Zaporozhye direction, it's raining, the enemy is waiting for good weather for the next offensive. Mines were thrown at us remotely at night. They train, they fly quadcopters, they change frequencies - they do radio training.

    At 04:00, the enemy tried to jump out on the positions of our units on a tank with infantry, but was destroyed with the help of flamethrowers and BMP-3.
    The difficult situation around Velyka Novoselovka, there are fierce battles. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are accumulating reserves for the next breakthrough and offensive, the situation around Makarovka remains difficult, the fighters from the field destroy the enemy and do not allow to break through the defense.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:36 pm

    I found this interesting. This was not a lake as flat underneath as it was on the surface, significant lakes are still there within the old main lake. The NPP is bottom right.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 22 FykVwgwWwAES_Yw?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Post  Regular Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:46 pm

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Leo 2A6 always offers good clues for a possible evaluation:

    - Material knowledge (how far is the opponent with material X or Y)
    - Manufacturing engineering
    - Possible types of operation (i.e. who can see what in the tank, do what, etc.)
    - installed systems and functions
    - possible communication and situation picture in the tank
    - Also what maintenance effort and operating expenses mean for the system and what it costs with 100 units in the attack (which logistics must be behind it and how "close" does it have to be)
    - quite simply, where is its armor weakest by shelling test
    Most of information can be collected by HUMIT. Even armour pen test, somewhat useless when older Leos were investigated and RHAs are known.

    Captured Ukrainian tankists and manuals give a good clue as well. Oh and Russians who served in German military and got back to Russia. Same as guys who spilled all the info about Merkava tanks on online forums. 

    Manufacturing bit might be interesting. Comms if not stripped would be interesting. But it’s ot SR-71 during cold war, Germans sold, promoted, showcased and exported these tanks left and right.

    Air defence systems, radars, command posts, this is more interesting, but not as symbolic and would look stupid if parked in front of [insert country] embassies.

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    Post  Sprut-B Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:50 pm

    https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1668923376038027264?t=ViIrFZRZ1V0u1lgSEaPh0w&s=19
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:04 pm

    Looks like I'm not the only one thinking this Smile He has gone further than me, suggesting that the area now being fought over contains a 'secret' defensive line.

    Armchair Warlord
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    They certainly seem to have given analysts - myself included - the impression the Russians intended to fight much further south and in a much more passive manner than they actually did in the event.

    This seems to have been a brilliant deception operation.

    With the existence of this covertly-constructed "zeroth" defensive line now revealed, what are we to make of the very visible and very publicly-constructed Russian defenses further south in Zaporozhe?

    Perhaps their construction was... a feint? Wink


    Last edited by JohninMK on Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:05 pm

    The Leopard 2A6 doesn't offer anything that UVZ doesn't already have a much more advanced answer for.

    UVZ's designers could use the laugh though. Razz

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    Post  Sprut-B Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:16 pm

    "The sanitary zone in Ukraine for the protection of the Russian Federation should pass through Lvov" - Medvedev

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