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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #37

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:30 am

    But ATGM didn't stop them from taking Stary Saltov, Liman, Kupyansk, Chuiguev, Balakleya, and so on

    Of course it didn't since russians retreated to organize their forces which were spread here and there.

    Human waves supported by t-64 against empty cities. Very good it work.

    But when did this strategy worked where russian were present ? Nowhere.

    Thry pick them up and blow them up with air launched atgms, artillery and drones from better position and well protected positions.

    The ukro tactic would have work against small russian groups. That's why they retreated and created bigger groups.

    So at the end they quickly and easily defeated their strategy.

    Leo 2 won't change anything and they have less and less experienced soldiers everyday which means any strategy that didn't work before won't work in the future.

    100 nato tanks more will just oblige russian to use another mix of 100 drones, atgm and krasnopol. But at the end of the day tanks will be destroyed, ukro will loose more men and nato will be left with less tanks. 1 rock 3 hits like we say in french for russia.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:34 am

    That's why I said, Zaporozhye and Kherson need manpower , to guard against this style attack,

    That is the gamechanger, not the weapons but appropriate logistics and manpower to rebuff Ukrainians
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:38 am

    They have enough soldiers. They need more drones with thermals to find the tanks and use lancets to hit them.

    That's 100 tank that won't come all togather. M1 will take months to be delivered. Most likely is polish leo 2 will go first alone. Then german next month, then US obes in 2 months...

    It will just burn fuel for nothing.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:40 am

    Let's hope those assumptions are correct ISOS,

    I agree that alone those weapons are just what they are, tanks

    So they can burn like others, no disagreements

    It's just , the Ukrainian army should not be allowed to even put its cannon fodder with whatever western trained army is in Poland and UK undergoing drilling and training
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    Post  Kiko Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:02 am

    Sending tanks to Ukraine will be Scholz's biggest failure, by Stanislav Borzyakov for VZGLYAD. 01.25.2023.

    After a series of jokes about “GRU agent Olaf Scholz”, threats from Poland and fierce bargaining with the United States, the German chancellor agreed to supply tanks in the Leopard 2A6 modification to Ukraine. The circumstances of these persuasions did not say anything new about the confrontation between Russia and the West. But a lot is about Scholz personally.

    For two days, Olaf Scholz was under pressure - and they did put pressure on him. Germany for the third time in its history, against the warnings of Otto von Bismarck , will send its tanks to Ukraine to confront Russia. We must think, plus or minus with the same result.

    It is not known for certain why Berlin  did not give its consent  to the supply of heavy tracked tanks to the Armed Forces of Ukraine directly at the meeting of Ukraine's allies at the Ramstein military base and what the  operational resignation of the German Defense Minister  on the eve of this meeting has to do with this.

    Perhaps Scholz hesitated because of the pacifist wing in his party, the SPD, the oldest in Germany and advocating cooperation with Moscow even during the First Cold War and the Berlin Wall. Perhaps Scholz himself was sincerely crippled at the thought of that very third time when German tanks were sent against Russia.

    Be that as it may, the chancellor clung to the last straw - he demanded that the United States also supply heavy tanks to Ukraine (and thereby share responsibility for the escalation), knowing full well that the Pentagon is categorically against the idea of ​​​​supplying Abrams for technical and mercantile reasons . Like, they are difficult to manage, expensive to operate, require constant prevention from specialized specialists, and in general - they are unlikely to help the Armed Forces of Ukraine, rather, they will burden. German "Leopards" in the modern modification of these shortcomings are deprived.

    The Pentagon, which is typical,  is still against it , but tanks will still go to Ukraine - both American and German. US President Joe Biden decided to let Scholz win this discussion and tore off a certain number of Abrams from his heart (they say, choke on them), but they will be purchased specifically for Ukraine, and their own stocks will not be touched.

    This American-German fair was behind the scenes, but it was as if it were live. The world's largest media reported on interim results with reference to sources - and such a stir is understandable: after all,  the third world war is at stake . Which of this is pure fiction, and which is real news - go and figure it out now.

    But from the outside it looked like this. Biden threw ten tanks on the table like poker chips (according to the  Arab media ). Scholz, pinned to the wall by his own strategy, was forced to support the bet - and also gave ten ( according to Spiegel , "up to a company", that is, a maximum of 14). 

    Realizing that the tactic was working, the Americans went rogue. A few hours later, 30 American tanks appeared in the media, then “up to 50,” which the White House is supposed to announce before the end of the week. After that, Berlin decided to close the bet and officially announced the transfer of a company of Leopards in the 2A6 modification in the near future and another company later (deliveries of American Abrams in an unclear amount are also spaced apart in time - some now, some later).

    A lot or a little depends on the optics. Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valery Zaluzhny stated that he needed 300 NATO tanks. Adviser and speaker of the office of the President of Ukraine Mykhailo Podolyak wants 400 to "end this war within a few months." Biden, according to all the same sources, believes that Ukraine needs at least 500 cars.

    The meaning of the ongoing game is to collect from the “pine forest”, and in a short time. "Abrams" (with the possible exception in the form of a few prototypes) is a story about some future, but "Leopards" about the present, they should arrive in Ukraine in the coming weeks.

    To date, at least 12 NATO countries are ready to provide tanks to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and this will be more of a contribution “by capabilities” than by the level of political participation. More than others (also at least a company) will be provided by Poland, and almost equally anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian authorities of the Czech Republic will not give a single one - they themselves have to. Norway will tear eight pieces from the heart, and Belgium would be glad, but sold all its Leopards ten years ago.

    About two battalions can enter the circle - up to 50 vehicles, which will appear at the Armed Forces of Ukraine within a month. This, of course, is not the 300 units that General Zaluzhny spoke about with his “modest” requests against the background of other requests, but we must add to them the Soviet-style heavy equipment that Kyiv already has at its disposal.

    It is quite obvious that this “ensemble” is needed for the next offensive of the Ukrainian troops (tanks are not required for other purposes), which, apparently, should begin before the spring warming and thaw, hence the rush. European Council President Charles Michel said this a few days ago:

    “What happens in 2023, and a lot of that depends on the next few weeks, will determine our future.”

    At about the same time, several publications appeared in the American media at once with stories about how Washington advisers dissuaded Kyiv from spending forces on the defense of Soledar and Artemovsk, suggesting that they focus on a “strike in a southerly direction.”

    It can be assumed that the purpose of such a strike is the destruction of what is called the "land corridor to the Crimea."

    Measures to respond to this threat, as well as where the strike will actually follow, are to be determined by the command of the RF Armed Forces.

    But in general, it is clear that the measures should be such that these Leopards are preserved intact only in the tank museum in Kubinka near Moscow.

    As for the purely political conclusions from this story, the second cold war with the global confrontation between Russia and the United States is taking its course, and something fundamentally new can only be said about Chancellor Scholz.

    He completely and completely failed as a "peacemaker" and representative of the "moderate wing" in Germany and the EU as a whole. Instead of stopping a company of NATO tanks on the way to Ukraine, he sent two there and agreed on the approach of two American companies.

    But a two-day delay turned him into an “enfant terrible” and a swindler for the “hawks” of NATO, with whom he almost ruined multi-billion investments in six months (that is, investments in the defeat of Russia in Ukraine, the reliability of which should be confirmed by the offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine).

    Literally, it turns out that Germany “gave back” when Poland threatened it with “political isolation”.

    And no one doubts that Berlin gave the necessary approval for the re-export of German tanks to Ukraine to the same Warsaw, not because it wants it or does not want it, but because otherwise the Poles would defiantly disregard its “veto” - and they clearly gave understand it.

    That is, as a strong figure and leader within NATO, Scholz also completely failed. And as a politician capable of defending the national interests of his country, he failed much earlier .

    But his main failure will follow later. It has already been proven twice that the German attempt to send tanks to Ukraine against Russia is followed by failure. You need to be an outstanding leader to try a third time with the hope of success, but Scholz, as mentioned above, is a failed leader and a bankrupt politician, therefore, by definition, he cannot count on success.

    https://vz.ru/politics/2023/1/25/1196368.html

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    Krepost
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    Post  Krepost Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:59 am

    These western tanks will be magnets for every Kornet, Vikhr, Ataka, Lancet, Krasnopol and RPGs of various iterations.

    I am sure there will be awards for those soldiers who capture them as trophies to be displayed in Kubinka museum and Park Patriot.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:34 am

    The tanks are posturing at least but may be more serious if they are used by a NATzO force to take over western Ukraine. Poland is
    the staging ground for this. The US has sent around 120 Abrams to Poland. But the real numbers may be higher. The sales of
    Abrams to Poland are not recent. Of course, this does not mean that NATzO operated Abrams are invulnerable wunderwaffen.



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    Post  dionis Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:47 am

    Arkhangelsk wrote:

    That's what was said about Kharkov

    And Kherson

    The cause of those withdrawals was the accumulation of large Ukro reserves and armored vehicles, which allowed them to launch human wave attacks which overwhelmed the front line

    In this case, M1abrams and Leopard 2, can help them with this

    If ATGM really make a difference as is claimed, then it should have been enough for T64 in Kharkov

    But ATGM didn't stop them from taking Stary Saltov, Liman, Kupyansk, Chuiguev, Balakleya, and so on

    And the same for Andreyevka, Davydov Brod, Kherson

    It's the same mistakes of the general staff, this time there is AMPLE warning and if nothing is done it will be a disaster

    Be chill brosevich!

    Kharkov was before mobilization was even announced, and Kherson was admittedly more questionable, but still early in the mobilization.

    Different ballgame now, given that the biggest issue (manpower) has been improved multiple times over.

    All these public announcements kind of ruin the whole "advantage" any of these toys bring anyway.

    Fancy tanks coming? Ok, get more ATGMs to the front and train up more people to use them. I mean.. come on.

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:00 pm

    Its future is not certain, but the Chinese population is going to decline like most advanced and educated countries do.... who is to say India does not get to 3 billion first and it dominates everything? wrote:

    Its not out of the realm of possibility, but India has to many issues with social mobility, religion, etc. And by the pace China has out developed them I doubt it.
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:39 pm

    January 26, 01:13
    Military operation in Ukraine

    Figaro: in France they believe that the supply of tanks to Kiev will not change the situation on the battlefield

    The publication also notes that against the backdrop of sending German Leopard 2, American M1 Abrams and British Challenger 2 to Kiev, Paris prefers to evade the issue of deliveries of French Leclerc heavy tanks.

    PARIS, 26 January. /TASS/. Deliveries of heavy tanks to Kiev may help to balance the battlefield, but are unlikely to change the course of the conflict. This opinion leads on Wednesday the newspaper Le Figaro.
    "Tanks can help the Ukrainians to reduce the load. But this will not fundamentally change the situation," the French military source quoted the publication as saying.

    According to him, the “window of opportunity” allowing the Ukrainian army to take advantage of the battlefield has “already closed,” because, as the newspaper notes, “the Russian army has begun to strengthen its positions, including in the area of ​​Melitopol and Mariupol, which makes it difficult for any or attack."

    "It's more about restoring the balance than about giving the Ukrainians the means to win," said French General Olivier Kempf, who is now a geopolitical analyst. At the same time, the editor-in-chief of the French magazine Revue Défense Nationale, Jerome Pellistrandi, believes that if Kiev acquires a" critical mass ", it will be able to resist the Russian offensive and, perhaps, go on the attack itself."

    Le Figaro also notes that against the background of sending German Leopard 2, American M1 Abrams and British Challenger 2 to Kiev, Paris prefers to evade the issue of deliveries of French Leclerc heavy tanks. The publication's source in the Republic's Armed Forces explained that "such a gift for Ukrainians" is out of the question. The newspaper emphasizes that the French army does not want to deprive itself of these combat vehicles, although the government continues to cautiously say that such deliveries "are not ruled out."

    Western tanks for Kiev

    On Wednesday, the US authorities announced their intention to transfer 31 M1 Abrams tanks to Kiev. In turn, the German government confirmed that it would send Ukraine 14 Leopard 2 tanks from the stocks of the German Armed Forces and issue permits for re-export to other countries. On Wednesday, the Ministry of Defense of Norway and Slovakia also announced intentions to transfer tanks to Ukraine. Earlier, the decision to provide Kiev with tanks was announced by the authorities of Great Britain, France and Poland.

    https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/16887971

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    zorobabel
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    Post  zorobabel Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:41 pm

    China's birth rate has collapsed. Down to 1.08 last year, lol. It'll take another decade or so, but it will face a Japanese style stagnation.

    The East Asian norm seems to be in the 0.9-1.1 range, which is societal collapse. Japan actually has the highest birth rate.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:51 pm

    To Zorolabel

    Although you and I are digressing from this topic, I have to answer you...

    China did not have a highway until 1988, look at the length of the highway network in China in 2022...
    The same goes for high-speed rail, infrastructure and everything else. We are talking about a disciplined nation.
    Of course, with economic progress comes some side effects (birth rate), but I think that such an old civilization will solve it very easily.

    No one does SELF DESTRUCTION as effectively as Christianity does, so I don't think there is any reason to worry about China..

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    zorobabel
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    Post  zorobabel Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:04 pm

    I agree with you, Podlodka77. I think China will become a very advanced state.

    But no, I disagree on the point about Christianity. I am a Christian so of course I must. We will have to see what happens with South Korea and Taiwan. They are the vanguards of the collapsed birth rate. I think their societies will just shrivel up and die, like modern-day Japan but twice as bad.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:19 pm

    I am also a Christian, but I do not see anything positive happening in the Christian world.
    If we take the last century as an example, then it is enough to write that Christians accounted for more than 70% of the dead in the Second World War, while the situation was even worse in the First World War. And they all perished in the confrontation between the West and Eastern Christianity. I have long been convinced that in the countries of Western Europe, Christianity exists only on "paper". Exceptions are southern Europe (Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, maybe France), as well as Eastern Europe.
    For Western Christianity, Brussels is God...
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:38 pm

    The M1A2 was never great; its fucking trash Razz

    Its an outdated design. More expensive, a lot cumbersome but has zero adaptations against the real armor killer on the battlefield - Krasnopol shells lased by Orlan drones.

    Weak piss shit. Just like their Shermans, and their Pattons, all pieces of crap compared to their opponents tanks. The difference is, the Abrams were extremely lucky never to have come up against actual opposition that isn't a disfunctional, sanctioned, bombed out shithole before the tanks even touch enemy soil

    All of these are good tanks in fact and have proved themselves in multiple conflicts. The same Shermans and Pattons were used by Israel to great effect even against enemy tanks which were newer and superior.

    But the M1A2 Abrams is an overburdened beast that is completely unsuitable for use by the Ukraine. It's just a ridiculous idea.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:42 pm

    It is just a move to prolong the conflict and pretend they can do something.
    Anything.
    Besides, the timetable suggests that the whole thing can be a nothing burger. There will be no Ukr to supply the toys with left.

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:43 pm

    Heavy cruise missile strikes all over the place now.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:46 pm

    And yet they are all still absolutely loyal

    Quite admirable it in a certain way

    The Anglos hit the jackpot when they bought out these sorry ass elites and their whole nation with them
    Hitler, the Holy Roman Emperor, the Sultan, Alexander the Great would all be green with envy over the puppy-like obedience of this clueless fodder

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:51 pm

    Even the Russians did not resist Toyotas...

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #37 - Page 10 18332811

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:00 pm

    Multiple Tu-22M3s reported in the air.
    Ch-22 time!

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:02 pm

    To ALAMO...

    That is very good, my friend - very good... Very Happy thumbsup

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:09 pm

    "All of these are good tanks in fact and have proved themselves in multiple conflicts. The same Shermans and Pattons were used by Israel to great effect even against enemy tanks which were newer and superior.

    But the M1A2 Abrams is an overburdened beast that is completely unsuitable for use by the Ukraine. It's just a ridiculous idea."

    Exactly, Abrams can deal with any Russian tank, the problem is these days if a tank has no aps or protective armor packages on, its easy prey to modern anti tank weapons assuming they can cause damage to the tank.

    Abrams has aps and armor packages but Ukraine will not get those.

    Plus Ukie logistics cannot handle them. Add in the third problem which is Abrams was designed to operate with our combined arms doctrine,.not how the ukies will use them and that just makes sending them pointless.

    I suspect we are sending them just to say "we gave em tanks" to me this seems like a face saving play by Biden

    Armata would get bitch slapped if it went in there without aps to


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:15 pm; edited 3 times in total

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    Post  Regular Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:10 pm

    Give Ukraine 500 T-14 and results will be the same. APS or not. 152 mm doesn’t discriminate. Krasnopols are also not a rare sighting. Not to mention that if Ukraine will advance - they will fall into Russian helicopter sights, they can literally operate day and night under friendly territory

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:28 pm

    That's what was said about Kharkov

    And Kherson

    The cause of those withdrawals was the accumulation of large Ukro reserves and armored vehicles, which allowed them to launch human wave attacks which overwhelmed the front line

    In this case, M1abrams and Leopard 2, can help them with this

    If ATGM really make a difference as is claimed, then it should have been enough for T64 in Kharkov

    But ATGM didn't stop them from taking Stary Saltov, Liman, Kupyansk, Chuiguev, Balakleya, and so on

    And the same for Andreyevka, Davydov Brod, Kherson

    It's the same mistakes of the general staff, this time there is AMPLE warning and if nothing is done it will be a disaster

    That's simply not correct.

    In Kharkov they were surprised, but they were in the process of withdrawing from there anyway. They had a minimal force of Rosgvardia there left

    While in Kherson they considered defending it, and in fact every Ukrainian offensive attempt there ended in disaster for months on end.
    In the end Russia withdrew from it for a mixture of reasons, including the dam being damaged, and less than ideal defensive positions there, and because they knew the Ukrainians will not be able to hide anywhere around there and can be picked off comfortably.

    There won't be some 'surprise' offensive with NATO tanks that takes Melitopol and cuts of the Crimea.
    Maybe a Ukrainian offensive will come as a surprise to you, because Russian command does not advertise the information they are privy to either - but for sure they themselves will detect some 20k-40k men being assembled, and with those Leopard 2's as you suggest no less.

    No doubt of course the Ukrainians do still have some reserves to use and they should be tracked carefully.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:38 pm

    A funny thought...

    In 1943, when the Kursk battle begins, Wehrmacht enjoyed an objectively huge technical advantage over the Red Army.
    Newly fielded Tigers, Panthers, and Ferdinands - in numbers - were vastly superior to any Soviet armored vehicle of the period.
    Soviets didn't even have KV-1s there.
    The only tool to fight direct combat against the Germans was using SU and ISU SPGs they has in extremely low numbers, as the production was only getting started. We talk pre-productional pieces actually, as the serial production was started in Autumn 43 only.
    There is not even a close case now.
    Russkie rule the battlefield and the sky above it.
    90Ms are better than any Ukro made/ad hoc delivered tank. Is better than both Leo2A4 and A6, and better than M1 the Muricans will share either. Don't believe they will give the newest versions for obvious reasons, and only those would be on pair.
    The whole hype is simply crazy. We talk about things that will make a perfectly zero impact. The entire western MSM hype is about nothing in real.

    GarryB, Werewolf, Regular, Big_Gazza, zepia, Hole, Broski and like this post


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