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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    lancelot
    lancelot


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    Post  lancelot Fri Nov 22, 2024 3:58 pm

    Kiko wrote:If 500 narrow-body aircraft are needed, then only 100 wide-body aircraft. In addition, narrow-body aircraft can fly long distances, for example, to the Far East, with only one stopover. Therefore, even if there is some shortage of wide-body aircraft, we will still not be left without the ability to fly long distances," Gusarov believes.
    Narrow body aircraft can fly pretty long distances. If they put the MC-21-400 in production and increase its fuel capacity there should be no need for stopovers for flying to the Far East.

    Kiko wrote:if you take the Chinese analogue of the MS-21, it is completely assembled from Western components, and it has Western engines. China is very vulnerable. If the Americans introduce the same sanctions against China as against us, then all their planes will stop - both foreign and Chinese. And they will not be able to overcome this technologically. And first of all, because they do not have their own engines. But we do.
    The Chinese are flight testing their CJ-1000 engine which is an equivalent to the PD-14.

    Most of the components used in the C919 are also being produced in China using partnerships between Chinese companies and Western manufacturers. The Chinese are following the same model they did with high-speed rail. Where they started by manufacturing trains in joint partnerships with Western companies and then built their own with only their components.

    A lot of people in the industry underestimate the Chinese but I think they will be a major player in aviation over the next decade.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Nov 22, 2024 5:48 pm

    lancelot wrote:Narrow body aircraft can fly pretty long distances. If they put the MC-21-400 in production and increase its fuel capacity there should be no need for stopovers for flying to the Far East.

    Yes but it requires more powerful engines which are not yet available.
    Possibly PD-14M (easiest, for either standard MC-21-400 or long range version of MC-21-310) or a PD-16 with even a new fan, but which will require further engine tests.

    Furthermore I do not know if the stretched and longer range variant has already a good status of development or still needs a few years.

    So it will come, but I doubt it will be before at least 2028.

    I do not know if it could be faster to do a longer range variant of the Tu-214 as a stop gap.
    As far as I know the PS-90 engine installed in the Tu-214 is rated at 16 tons takeoff thrust, but there is a higher thrust variant rated at 17.6 tons which could allow higher MTOW and additional fuel tanks, thus longer range.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:17 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I do not know if it could be faster to do a longer range variant of the Tu-214 as a stop gap.
    As far as I know the PS-90 engine installed in the Tu-214 is rated at 16 tons takeoff thrust, but there is a higher thrust variant rated at 17.6 tons which could allow higher MTOW and additional fuel tanks, thus longer range.
    Russia already has a widebody. The Il-96.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:18 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Russia already has a widebody. The Il-96.

    At the moment it is not clear if it will be bought in more than homoeopathic numbers...while there are plans and investments to expand Tu-214 production capacity to 20 aircrafts per year.

    Since a higher thrust rating version of the engine is available and already certified, The PS-90A1 (even if a bit outdated), if needed the range could be pushed even further (with the installation of additional tanks).

    Moscow - Vladivostok are just a tiny bit less than 6500km apart, which is a bit longer than the previously declared range of the MC-21 200 and MC-21-300.
    I do not know how the import substituted version will affect this.

    As far as the Tu-214, I am not sure about the actual range (with full passenger load in 2 classes), as there are some websites reporting 5500 km and other reporting 6700 km.

    Furthermore there was apparently a shortened version of the Tu-204 (Tu-204-300, which is 40 m long instead of 46m) which should have had a longer range.

    And since that had already been certified, making a Tu-214 equivalent of the Tu-204-300 should be possible
    (I had already read about Tupolev intention of doing a shortened version of the Tu-214).

    So the longer ranged Tu-214 could cover the need for direct flights to the far east without needing all the time to fly with widebodies, while the MC-21 will concentrate on the flights shorter than 5 hours.

    This would also justify the production of the aircraft, as the MC-21-400 will not arrive before 2030.
    In addition the production capabilities will not reach 72 aircrafts per year before 2029, so it means that current orders for MC-21-310 aircrafts will not be met before 2030, thus there is no spare production capacity for the MC-21-400 before 2030.

    Here below some distances:

    https://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/dme-to-vvo/

    The distance between Moscow (Moscow Domodedovo Airport) and Vladivostok (Vladivostok International Airport) is 3995 miles / 6429 kilometers / 3471 nautical miles.

    https://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/vvo-to-ods/


    The distance between Vladivostok (Vladivostok International Airport) and Odessa (Odesa International Airport) is 4610 miles / 7419 kilometers / 4006 nautical miles.

    https://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/vvo-to-kbp/

    The distance between Vladivostok (Vladivostok International Airport) and Kiev (Boryspil International Airport) is 4434 miles / 7136 kilometers / 3853 nautical miles.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:21 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/okupaemost-sozdaniya-ms-21-zavisit-ot-eksporta-samolyota-xvatit-li-proizvodstvennyx-moshhnostej/

    The payback period for the MS-21 depends on the export of the aircraft. Will there be enough production capacity?
    22.11.2024, 13:01

    The Russian aviation industry is striving to expand its sales markets; in the next 3-4 years, the industry will reach stable serial production of several types of aircraft at once. Cooperation with countries interested in acquiring modern passenger aircraft will take into account the current geopolitical situation and focus on those partners with whom stable economic and political relations have been established.

    The assessment of market demand for Russian aircraft, including the MS-21, Tu-214 and SJ-100, should take into account the characteristics of analogues, as well as the needs of potential customers. At the same time, the projected volumes of passenger transportation in various regions of the world make the calculation of the possibility of exporting Russian civil aircraft optimistic.

    The export component in the serial production of the MS-21 aircraft should be one of the fundamental factors for the successful commercialization of the promising Russian airliner. If we rely only on the domestic market, the costs of creating the aircraft will not pay off. This was discussed at the FederalPress open studio at the Russian Transport WeekstatedChief Expert of the Institute of Transport Economics and Transport Policy at the National Research University Higher School of Economics Fyodor Borisov.

    "Export for the aviation industry should always be imperative. Focusing only on the domestic market is wrong, since this is a very complex, very expensive product. You should not focus only on the domestic market, because in this case the investments will not pay off," the expert said.

    In the global passenger air travel market, demand for narrow-body aircraft with a range of up to 6,000 km is growing. Airlines are modernizing their fleets, and the growing economy of Asia is helping to boost air travel. The world's largest aircraft manufacturer Airbus in its annual report on trends in the aviation industry in summer 2024predictedthat the global fleet of passenger aircraft will more than double in the next two decades, reaching almost 42,000 airliners.

    In this regard, Fyodor Borisov notes the existence of a significant sales market for the MS-21. According to him, deliveries will not be made to unfriendly countries, but there are a sufficient number of countries that do not support the global West and are in need of new aircraft. It is precisely these countries, ready to cooperate with Russian manufacturers, that should be targeted when offering the MS-21 for export.

    However, the insufficient rate of production of the aircraft at the Irkutsk Aviation Plant may put an end to the export of the MS-21. At present, the IAP is expanding its production capacity, building new workshops, and importing modern processing equipment. Upon completion of the current stage of modernization, the plant will be able to produce 36 MS-21-310 airliners per year. Considering that over the next 10 years, Russian civil aviation will be decommissioning foreign aircraft, such a volume of production is completely insufficient, and it is impossible to talk about the beginning of export deliveries, even with the presence of potential customers.

    Comprehensive programdevelopment of the Russian aviation industry until December 31, 2030, provides for the production of 50 MS-21 aircraft in 2027, and from 2028 it is necessary to reach the rate of production of 72 aircraft annually. In order to ensure such volumes, it is obvious that further expansion of production capacities is necessary. They should be comparable to those that IAZ will have after modernization.

    Thus, to solve the ambitious task of replacing all medium-haul Boeing and Airbus aircraft in Russian airlines with the MS-21 within a decade, it is necessary to build a new aircraft plant or modernize one of the existing ones, but underutilized or idle, and organize serial production of the airliner there. In addition, a significant increase in the production of PD-14 engines in Perm is becoming urgent, which will also require an expansion of production capacity.

    Artem Kirillov
    for the website "Aviation of Russia"

    Even if at loss, it is fundamental for Russia to have airplane production independent from other countries. Subcontracting production of some secondary parts to friendly country to allow export production could be arranged, but only to increase production rates. 100 % of parts needed for producing the aircraft must be made in Russia.
    What I mean is that some parts could be double sourced, to increase production rate, but still allowing Russia to meet its internal need without foreign production.

    Expansion of production capacity in aircraft and engine plants is also more than needed.

    An additional assembly line for yak-242 (MC-21) could be set up in a newly built Plant in Saratov (the old destroyed plant used to build Yak-42), or in Samara (if the Aviakor plant is first bankrupted and then acquired by state, no need to make Deripaska and financial companies based in cyprus get rich with it).

    VASO in Voronezh should concentrate in other parts production, in getting ready for serial production of the il-114 turboprop and on maintaining widebody production capabilities, waiting for the new widebody project to be ready.

    As far as the engines, one of the other UEC plants could organize new assembly lines for the PD-14.  Or a new assembly line could also be set up in KMPO “Kazan Motor Production Association" or in Zaporozhye, once liberated.

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    Post  Firebird Sun Nov 24, 2024 8:02 pm

    Russia holds quite a geographically significant place in intl air travel.
    Midway between the large population centres of Asia, Europe... and to some extent the Middle East/N Africa.

    Of course relats with Europe are extremely polluted at the moment.
    The question arises whether Russia should even consider doing businss with much of Europe after the Ukraine matter is resolved.
    I am British resident and half Ru, half British by blood. But my incliniation is that Russia should tell Europe to suck AIDS ridden cock after the Ukraine situation.

    But anyway, with Russia controlling such a vital airspace it can potentially have leverage over other many states and what planes they use to overfly Russia.

    Likewise it can also be a lead partner in manufacture with countries who do not wish to be vassals of China, the USA and the EU.
    The development of BRICS, deglobalisation and the regional power blocs will aid Russia in carving its place in the World and aviation in particular.

    In other words, I believe a major case can be put forward for Russia building a world leading wide body jet. To match a mature and successful MS-21.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Nov 24, 2024 9:17 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:What I mean is that some parts could be double sourced, to increase production rate, but still allowing Russia to meet its internal need without foreign production.
    Perhaps UAC could build an aircraft factory in India and sell airplanes there. There is plenty of money in Indian deposits which could fund such construction and salaries. Some of the aircraft could be sold to Russia.

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Expansion of production capacity in aircraft and engine plants is also more than needed.

    An additional assembly line for yak-242 (MC-21) could be set up in a newly built Plant in Saratov (the old destroyed plant used to build Yak-42), or in Samara (if the Aviakor plant is first bankrupted and then acquired by state, no need to make Deripaska and financial companies based in cyprus get rich with it).
    You see? That is my point. If they want to build another MC-21 factory why not do this at Tupolev's site in Kazan instead of them wasting time with the Tu-214?

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:As far as the engines, one of the other UEC plants could organize new assembly lines for the PD-14.  Or a new assembly line could also be set up in KMPO “Kazan Motor Production Association" or in Zaporozhye, once liberated.
    Maybe the factory at Rybinsk (UEC Saturn) which used to produce the D-30 should start moving some of its production to the PD-14. I also think they should just move the Il-76MD-90A to the PD-14 engine.

    There is just no reason whatsoever to continue using the PS-90 in new production aircraft if there is a PD-14 version of that power level that will fit. Like I said before it takes less man hours to build the PD-14 than the PS-90.

    The complexity of the assembly of the serial PD-14 will be significantly lower than the PS-90. So, the number of pipelines was reduced by half - up to 250. In addition, the load on the workshop was reduced by supplying ready-made modules from related companies: gearboxes for cooperation with MMPP Salyut, low-pressure compressor (LPC) with NPO Saturn, high pressure compressors (HPC) and low pressure turbines (HPH) - from the Ufa MPO. Compared to PS-90, the degree of localization of production at UEC-PM is reduced from 70-80 to 40-45%. The total number of external suppliers is 120.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/3/2020/3/2/275/

    When PD-14 will be assembled serially, the assembly cycle of one engine will be not ten days, as for PS-90A, but seven.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/3/2018/3/18/184/

    The more PD-14 engines they produce the lower will be the cost per unit with mass production. The more hours flying in  aircraft these engines get the more engines to examine to check for faults in the design that limit the reliability or lifetime.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:00 am

    At the moment it is not clear if it will be bought in more than homoeopathic numbers...while there are plans and investments to expand Tu-214 production capacity to 20 aircrafts per year.

    How many new wide body aircraft would they need?

    Making 4 or 5 a year might be good enough to produce all the aircraft they need or want... a brand new from the ground up scratch built new aircraft with a different shape and all new materials and design might change performance enough to make it worth while but how far away is that?

    Such an aircraft would most likely be based on PD-35 engines so it wont be flying till after 2030.

    They need to work out how many they might be needed... I mean if Trump escalates against China the way Biden escalates against Russian then China could be in real trouble if Airbus and Boeing gets sanctioned from the Chinese market the way they were forced out of the Russian market.

    Chinas first response might be to offer to licence produce Russian types in China and fund further expansion of production in Russia to meet their needs as quickly as possible, but of course they will then likely make their own upgrades and not continue to buy Russian types... and that would be understandable... Russia is doing this to be self sufficient from the west, so for China to want the same makes pretty basic obvious sense too.

    Maybe they could come to an agreement where Russia makes these types and China makes those types and both countries buy both types from each other.

    Who knows.


    But anyway, with Russia controlling such a vital airspace it can potentially have leverage over other many states and what planes they use to overfly Russia.

    That is not how Russia does things... if the west drops its rules preventing Russian aircraft flying to EU countries Russia will do the same.

    The reality is that Russia made good money from overflights from European airlines and being so pig headed is what the west are, not Russia.

    Of course if they keep pushing there might not be any places in the EU to visit any more.

    Perhaps UAC could build an aircraft factory in India and sell airplanes there. There is plenty of money in Indian deposits which could fund such construction and salaries. Some of the aircraft could be sold to Russia.

    If Russia builds the factor and pays the workers then the products are Russian and can be sent to Russia when they are made. If you want to then sell these planes to Russia then how are you solving the trade imbalance when Russia will have to pay its own company in rupees for the aircraft?

    You see? That is my point. If they want to build another MC-21 factory why not do this at Tupolev's site in Kazan instead of them wasting time with the Tu-214?

    Because the Tu-214 has customers and many of them want more... I suspect the Russian military wants more too.

    Maybe the factory at Rybinsk (UEC Saturn) which used to produce the D-30 should start moving some of its production to the PD-14. I also think they should just move the Il-76MD-90A to the PD-14 engine.

    Very much agree.

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    Post  Kiko Mon Nov 25, 2024 9:32 am

    UAC dismisses Yakovlev CEO and Tupolev managing director, 11.25.2024.

    The United Aircraft Corporation (UAC, part of Rostec) announced changes in the management of civil programs. Andrey Boginsky, CEO of PJSC Yakovlev, and Konstantin Timofeev, Managing Director of JSC Tupolev, are leaving their positions. According to one of Kommersant’s sources in the aviation industry, Mr. Boginsky was fired on the orders of Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin “for the failure of the civil aviation programme.” The second source objects that his departure may be connected with his transfer to the government. Andrey Boginsky will also leave the post of Deputy CEO of UAC for civil aviation.

    PAO Yakovlev will be managed by UAC CEO Vadim Badekha. He will combine the posts of head of UAC and Yakovlev. Management of JSC Tupolev will be performed by UAC Deputy CEO for State Defense Order and Operational-Tactical Aviation Program Management Alexander Bobryshev. He will also take the post of Managing Director of Tupolev. Mr. Bobryshev already headed this company in 2009-2013.

    “The transfer of management to the level of the parent company UAC will allow all the corporation’s resources to be concentrated on fulfilling specific tasks for the timely certification and launch of serial production of a line of domestic civil airliners,” the UAC press service told Kommersant.

    Earlier this month, the UAC leadership changed. Vadim Badekha was appointed CEO of the corporation . In this position, he replaced Yuri Slyusar, who had headed the UAC since 2015. On November 4, President Vladimir Putin appointed Mr. Slyusar acting governor of the Rostov region.

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/7326719

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:19 am

    Maybe the factory at Rybinsk (UEC Saturn) which used to produce the D-30 should start moving some of its production to the PD-14. I also think they should just move the Il-76MD-90A to the PD-14 engine

    That is a good idea (first one). Of course they still need to produce spare parts because there are still many il-76 with d-30 engines still in service.

    Furthermore there are two different engines called D-30 current: one is the "transport engine version, in 2 variants:
    • D-30 KU of the Tu-154 , Il-62
    • D-30KP of the old version of Il-76


    And also there is the D-30F6 of the Mig-31, for which the core parts have been recently put back in production ( I believe in Perm Motors.


    As far as the il-76MD-90A, the engine there is rated slightly more than the baseline version of the PD-14 (14.5 tons Vs 14 tons take-off thrust). This is not a huge change, but it requires some additional work on the engine side. Furthermore it would require new certification tests for the aircraft. Eventually it will be done, but now there are a lot more things which have priority.

    Even if the PD-14 requires less man hours to be assembled, there are still a lot of aircrafts and land gas turbines which use PS-90. PS-90 is also an engine very well known as far as behaviour and service. I do not believe it is worth to switch to PD-14 for everything before 2030.

    PS-90 will still be produced at least for another 5 or 10 years, I believe.

    Possibly they could eventually move the PS-90 assembly lines to another plant, (even something brand new in the Donbass), so that Perm Motors can concentrate on the PD series engines.

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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 25, 2024 1:24 pm

    It is not a big deal. The original Il-76 engines had like 12t of thrust.
    You will possibly lose a little payload but that is probably mitigated by the lower fuel consumption.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 25, 2024 1:47 pm

    lancelot wrote:It is not a big deal. The original Il-76 engines had like 12t of thrust.
    You will possibly lose a little payload but that is probably mitigated by the lower fuel consumption.

    It Is a bit of a big deal. As far as I know changing the engine type is a major change in the type certificate of the aircraft, and requires several new tests, assessments and also update to all of the documentation.

    It is not worth. Even if for military aircraft it was simpler than for civilian aircrafts (I have no clue about it), it is a matter of dedicating money and time to fix something that does not need to be fixed.

    Ilyushin and in general UAC have other priorities

    Embraer put the IAE V2500-E5 turbofan, (14 tons takeoff thrust) on the C390 transport plane even if the CFM leap was going to be ready before the aircraft was certified.
    And they have justly no intention on changing it for newly produced airplanes.

    if it ain't broke, don't fix it

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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 25, 2024 2:54 pm

    It is idiotic to continue manufacturing the PS-90 when the PD-14 is better in all aspects and takes less resources and time to build. It is as simple as that.

    Each Il-76 has four whole engines. As many as two civilian airliners would.

    Notice that quote I added. It will take 7 days to assemble a PD-14 vs 10 days for a PS-90. This means it can be assembled 30% faster. With the same factory resources you can assemble like 3 engines instead of 2. Better engines at that. This means you could be making engines for 3 Il-76 instead of 2 with the same factory resources. Or you could smoothly reallocate production of engines between Il-76 and MC-21 depending on needs.

    Your argument about the lower thrust is overblown. The original design of the Il-76 was for 12t engines. A lot of people claim the Il-76 with the PS-90 is overpowered. Because they increased the max payload, but the internal volume remains the same. In a lot of cases the extra payload capacity is simply not used.

    In fact Aviadvigatel proposed as much. Using the PD-14 on the Il-76. The people at Illyushin dragged their feet with similar arguments to yours about certification costs. But these arguments are all bullshit. They have already put a PD-14 under the wing of an Il-76 when they were flight testing the engine at Zhukovsky.
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 32 18196710

    Illyushin is also doing pretty much jack all at this point. They are supposed be going to make the Il-112 with PD-8 engines. But without engines, the PD-8 is delayed, there is no aircraft.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:19 pm


    The V2500 is still in production (and will remain in production) even if it has been replaced by the geared turbofan PW1000G for new airliners.

    https://www.prattwhitney.com/en/products/commercial-engines/v2500#:~:text=Setting%20the%20standard%20for%20reliability,for%20many%20years%20to%20come.

    Pratt & Whitney wrote:Setting the standard for reliability, the V2500 engine — with ongoing production and a committed supply base — will support our customers’ efficient operations for many years to come.

    And the CFM56 has still been in production at least until 2024, which is 8 years after CFM leap entry into commercial service.


    You do not stop production of an engine immediately after its replacement has been certified.

    Finally Russia has something reliable and with a lot of maintenance data. They can continue to use it for a while in Tu-214 and Il-76.

    By the time they have to replace the engine in the il76 again it could be worth to think about a brand new aircraft as well.

    Actually having the MC-21 and the Tu-214 with two different engines (even if from the same supplier) could be an advantage. If there should be an airworthiness directive grounding or limiting maintenance interval for the PD-14, this will not affect the Tu-214.

    As an example the Trent 1000 had in the past turbine corrosion issue which caused the grounding of many aircrafts.

    Some of these issues are discovered only when the engine is in service for a few years.
    Thus I do not believe it makes sense to stop production of a perfectly capable engine, even if less efficient than the new generation.

    After the new engine has been in service for at least 7/8 years, they can start thinking about stopping production of the old (as long as they are still capable to produce individual modules and spare parts for at least another decade).
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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:29 pm

    The PS-90 engine itself is not that well tested or reliable either.

    The production of aircraft using it was limited as was their flight time. You will basically be spending resources maintaining two lines of production competing for the same manufacturing resources for no gain.

    They spent a lot of resources improving PS-90 reliability, but this was done in cooperation with the West using imported components. Now those engine variants cannot be procured at all.

    The PD-14 was designed without any major imported components. There might be some in the subassemblies but I doubt they cannot replace them.

    In the case of the V2500 there is a huge pool of existing parts and mechanics used to repairing and maintaining such engines with many thousands of engines manufactured. No such thing exists for the PS-90 which at best was fabricated in the low hundreds. More likely in the dozens of engines.

    Most PS-90 engines are actually being used for pumping natural gas in Gazprom's pipeline network, the aircraft use of it is marginal. Natural gas burns much cleaner than kerosene, so you will get less issues with clogged injectors, combustion chambers, and the like. So both use cases are not 100% the same. Which means improving reliability for gas pumping might not significantly improve it for aviation use.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 25, 2024 10:45 pm

    Furthermore there are two different engines called D-30 current: one is the "transport engine version, in 2 variants:

       D-30 KU of the Tu-154 , Il-62
       D-30KP of the old version of Il-76

    And also there is the D-30F6 of the Mig-31, for which the core parts have been recently put back in production ( I believe in Perm Motors.

    Pretty sure that is not true. Don't confuse very similar designations for a relationship... the S-300F and S-300P are not related to S-300V for instance either.

    The mach 2.83 plus D-30 engine in the MiG-31 is not related to the subsonic high bypass D-30 turbofan in the Il-76 and A-42 and Tu-154 and Il-62.

    Had a discussion with Vlad79 about it about a decade ago.

    BTW if they were related then why restart production of the MiG-31 engine when the engines for the Il-76 never left production?

    It is idiotic to continue manufacturing the PS-90 when the PD-14 is better in all aspects and takes less resources and time to build. It is as simple as that.

    Well that is a lie... there are several versions of the PS-90 that go up to 18 tons thrust and you mentioned yourself replacing the engines of the Il-476 with PD-14s would result in a small loss of thrust... having less thrust is not better.

    This means you could be making engines for 3 Il-76 instead of 2 with the same factory resources.

    That would be relevant if the problem was making PS-90 engines that is slowing up Il-476 production and AFAIK it is not.

    They have already put a PD-14 under the wing of an Il-76 when they were flight testing the engine at Zhukovsky.

    That is a bit disingenuous... were they also testing these engines for the Il-476?

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 32 Turbof13

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 32 Turbof12

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    Or was that the Il-76LL engine testing aircraft that tests engine performance but not wing or aircraft performance with different engines?


    The PS-90 engine itself is not that well tested or reliable either.

    The PS-90 is about three engines isn't it? One is about 14.5 ton, one is about 16 ton thrust, and there is one that is about 18 tons thrust too isn't there?

    It is in production and it makes sense to keep it in production until more of the PD range are in production.

    It might turn out they want more power so a PD-16 or PD-18 might be considered for the Il-476 and other types... who knows.

    You will basically be spending resources maintaining two lines of production competing for the same manufacturing resources for no gain.

    There is efficiency and there is being ridiculous.

    Now the Su-57 is flying and in serial production are you going  to cancel everything else... Su-30, Su-33, Su-35, Su-75 and anything MiG or Yak have in the works for fighter types?

    Is making all those aircraft destroying the Russian Air Force... is the bloated production base killing Russian soldiers in Ukraine and Syria... all those different missiles and bombs and shells and aircraft and helicopters... they should just have one company making one thing... lets call them Boeing and lets call it the F-35.

    Having different things makes sense sometimes, and completely replacing it with new stuff is generally not practical... how many T-72s or T-62s does the Russia Army use at the moment? Should they all be scrapped and replaced with T-14?

    Was the T-90AM a waste of money and time?

    Just because the T-14 is better does not mean the T-90 is useless crap... and it will be cheaper.

    I would say in 5 or 10 years time they can shift production to newer engine types and either replace the old aircraft (Tu-154M and Il-62) or fit new engines (Il-476).

    It might even be the case that the Il-276 might work better with a PD-16 or PD-18 engine to boost its performance and add fuel for better range.

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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:09 pm

    The difference is those engines tested on the Il-76, unlike the PD-14, were never certified for serial production. Even if they were supposed to have sufficient power.

    The PD-14 has sufficient power and is certified.

    The Il-76 originally came with four 11.8 ton D-30KP engines. And now it comes with four 14.2 ton PS-90A76 engines not because they needed all that power but because it was the version of the PS-90 they could make which was closest to requirements without spending a lot of time and money doing it.

    It does not mean production of the Il-76MD-90A would be stopped immediately or something. You would need to conduct the wind tunnel and flight tests to certify the PD-14 configuration before it started serial production. But the idea this would be some terribly complicated, or impossible, or even bad decision, is wrong in my opinion. It is just an engine configuration change. Happens all the time in aircraft, you can pick your choice of engine in the A320 or 787 for example.

    As for your other comments, I would definitively switch Su-35 production to the Su-57 as soon as possible.
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Dec 05, 2024 9:58 pm

    Perm builds about 150 hp-90 per year. A large part for Gazprom. That's a decent number compared to Western engines. The PS-90A are already very reliable.

    If so, then the IL-76 should continue to get PS-90A to have a backup engine. It would just have to be further developed.

    The PD-14M was to be attached to the Tu-214 at the same time as a two-man cockpit. The MS-21 will never finish Russian earlier. These fairy tales should finally be forgotten.

    The only aircraft that is really available is the Tu-214. From it you can also make an LR version with a range of 9000km. This focus on MS-21 is just a disability.

    A country like Russia always needs a second pattern.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 06, 2024 10:37 am

    As for your other comments, I would definitively switch Su-35 production to the Su-57 as soon as possible.

    For many roles external ordinance in large amounts is more important than being stealthy... hunting drones for instance would require the heavy and extensive use of powerful radar that would render any stealthiness of the design to be quite useless. The ability of the Su-35 with 14 weapon hard points for weapons to potentially take down rather more drones than the Su-57 could... as an example.

    AFAIK the Russian military has never had the stated goal to replace all 4th gen fighters with 5th gen stealth aircraft... it is likely that stealthy and non stealthy aircraft will continue to be produced and used together.

    A country like Russia always needs a second pattern.

    It is the same thing with the Kuznetsov, scrapping the Kuznetsov does not magically free up all the money invested in it to be spent immediately on Frigates or Corvettes.

    Saying you could make 10 frigates for the money spent on the Kuznetsov does not mean cancelling and scrapping the Kuznetsov will make 10 new frigates suddenly appear and be ready for service.

    In fact cancelling the K will just mean more money would need to be spent on disposing of it and you lose a capability until a replacement is ready... which is going to likely cost rather more than the K was costing. Equally any extra ships you might be able to buy with the money freed up would be added to the end of the current production schedule, they would not just magically appear.

    Cancelling the Tu-214 now would create a gap... if you think shifting Tu-214 production to superjet or MS-21 production will make them faster then why not just set up extra production for those types and also be able to make Tupolevs too. The Tu-204 and Tu-214 are not terrible aircraft... in fact they are modern and capable and just never got money invested in them to develop them the way western airliners got funding by being used.

    In fact Tupolev has set up a centre for improving and upgrading the aircraft including the things Aeroflot complained about the the aircraft. Further work at that centre should allow further development and improvement of the types and perhaps also allow a place to work on a new transport version (Tu-330) to be developed too.

    They are spending the money on their planes making them better and faster and easier to make, instead of big fat bonuses for CEOs and shareholders like western MIC companies are doing right now. That is why Russia has missiles and ammo and Ukraine does not... and that will also be the difference between China and Taiwan if the US ever gets its wish for death and destruction and chaos in Asia.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Dec 07, 2024 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:35 am

    Exactly, there are also a lot of aeroderivative engines needed for the energy sector which need to be produced. They are not exactly the same as the jet engines for airplanes but probably most of the parts and supply chain will be the same.

    So there is no hurry in stopping production.

    PD-14M / PD-16 will not happen on the Tu-214 before at least 2030.

    MC-21-310 will have PD-14 engines
    New SJ-100 will have PD-8 engines

    Tu-214 will have PS-90 for at least the first few years.
    The only new thing it needs is the replacement of foreign systems.

    Only after MC-21 will have been in service for 4/5 years it make sense to update engines also in the Tu-214 and do a modernised version.

    Most probably MC-21 and Tu-214 (3 person cockpit, PS-90 engines and with just the minimum import substitution needed) will be ready around the same time.

    It is perfectly ok. They need to have a safe and tested alternative to the MC-21. Some issues appear only in service and not in test.  I know that the Tu-204/214 has not been widely used among civilian operators, but it is known at least.

    Russia cannot afford to have too many uncertainties at the same time. I see it as a risk mitigation.

    And it is not a waste of money. Tu-214 will be used anyway also by government/military operators and in special modification, so all development effort done now for it (including possible engine change in 2030) will not be wasted.

    Even if the PS-90 takes more time to be built this is not a reason not to produce it (anyway probably it should be cheaper than the PD-14).

    It is there and there are il-76 and Tu-214 (plus il-96) currently certified on it.
    The fact that it is about 15-20% less efficient than the PD-14 is not a huge problem.
    It should be just a little bit worse than the original engines of the A320 (V2500 and CFM56) and possibly they could do also the PS-90A3M version to include several improvements (maybe also some improvements/technologies introduced in the PD-14 could be retrofitted in the PS-90 as well).

    Never ever stop production of an existing model (even if worse and more expensive) until the new one is in service in sufficient numbers and for a few years.

    As said before, they should just organise additional build lines (even away from Perm) and employ and train new personnel for it, so that its production does not affect/limit the PD-14 production.

    Probably they are also working with the whole supply chain in order to ensure all suppliers are able to meet the new requests (going from supplying parts for 10-20 engines per year is much different than supplying parts for 60 PS-90 +150 PD-14 per year (+ about 40- to 60 PD-Cool

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    Post  Firebird Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:13 pm

    Does anyone have any views on what will happen with the Western made aviation fleets as they age?

    Can Russia access foreign parts and maintenance via the grey market?
    Make it's own parts?
    Sell the jets, even tho it leased most of them?
    Or just scrap them?
    Work with other sanction states eg Iran to solve it?

    If China has any brains it should realise it (and many other states) could find themselves sanctioned in many ways at the blink of an eye.

    Its good that the penny will finally drop and realise neither Europe or the USGay are even remotely reliable partners.
    But there is still a considerable problem to figure out re the current fleet.
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:14 pm

    It makes no sense to try to maintain these aircraft until they turn into dust. The smart response is to build MC-21 and other jets to
    replace them. The western aircraft can serve as gap filler until production of domestic aircraft ramps up. Russia does not need
    western aircraft on some fundamental level.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 07, 2024 1:16 am

    Does anyone have any views on what will happen with the Western made aviation fleets as they age?

    I do have a nasty streak if really pushed... and murdering my fellow countrymen by proxy is one way to bring that out... those western aircraft are mostly leased so once I have domestic designs to replace each one I would strip the western aircraft down to thumb sized pieces and box it all up and ship it to the leasing company.... in about 5 separate lots.

    Can Russia access foreign parts and maintenance via the grey market?
    Make it's own parts?

    Iran managed to do it... with hard work and talent... so I would say a combination of Iran and Russia and the black market they should be able to keep them going long enough for them to be replaced. Of course as production of Russian aircraft fills the gaps and then starts to displace the foreign types they can retire and salvage parts from the withdrawn aircraft by swapping the worn out parts with less worn parts... storage aircraft whose parts are too worn to reuse... box em up and ship em back.

    Really depends on the contracts and how shitty the leasing companies are, but if I was Russia I would be telling them their aircraft are seized just like Russian assets in the west and when Russia has used every last hour of each part of those aircraft... they are sending them to Kiev... instead of washing machine parts in their missiles.... we are not going to pay for them... talk to the western governments that seized our assets and get a refund from them over it.

    As the west steals more the more western companies assets in Russia are going to be nationalised to recover the money and they can go to their own governments for compensation from Russian assets seized too.

    If China has any brains it should realise it (and many other states) could find themselves sanctioned in many ways at the blink of an eye.

    It is a good lesson for any independent country who does not want to be bullied into doing what the west demands on various issues.

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    Post  Firebird Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:43 pm

    Yes good points above.
    But I wonder what the service life of such Western planes in Russia would be IF they had full access to Western parts and to Western technical advice.
    Given that there is a massive grey market... does this really shorten their SAFE service lives?

    Of course Russia should have its own aviation industry to replace EVERYTHING the West does - sooner rather than later. But it would be nice to keep the Western planes running a good while yet just to spite the Yanks and Eurogayboys.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Dec 07, 2024 3:39 pm

    They will be running at least until 2030.

    I remember reading articles which said that Russia was already cooperating with Iran for spare parts production and already instructed some of their companies for reverse engineering spare parts for their airbus and Boeing.
    As far as I understand Iran has mastered also repair and production of the early versions of the CFM56, which is used in Boeing 737 and A320 (not the neo versions, which use instead the CFM leap), and in some versions of the A340.

    So Russia with Iran support should be able to maintain the engines of most foreign narrowbodies (even if probably the engines of A320 and Boeing 737 in Aeroflot and S7 are a more modern subversion of CFM56 than the one made in Iran (I believe in Iran they can make something similar to the first version form the 80s, instead of the mid 2000s upgrade).

    Possibly the same could be true also for the rest of those aircrafts' systems. As far as the widebodies it could be more problematic, since as far as I understand Iran has no capabilities in manufacturing of spare parts for modern A350, Boeing 787 and similar.

    However if they used non OEM approved spare parts for maintenance their resale value will be almost nothing, as they will not be allowed to fly under EASA or FAA rules.
    Not a problem for Iran or Nord Korea, but if they need to fly under western authorities than all non OEM approved spare parts would need to be replaced.

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